FMJ vs JHP...Will FMJ get the job done for SD? - Page 4 - 1911Forum
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  #76  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:56 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Originally Posted by rottman43055 View Post
Amen brother & I'd like to add that this is one of the best forums I have ever been on. We can squabble and still respect one another. Good bunch of guys here.

Now, back to why my ammo is better than yours .....
I forgot......are you one of the New Age Hollow Point guys or one of the Old Phart RNFP Overpenetration Be Damned guys? Be careful with your answer as someone may whiz in your eggnog.
  #77  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:58 PM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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Can't we all discuss something far less controversial than this? You know, like whose god is better than the others?

lol
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  #78  
Old 12-10-2010, 01:23 PM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
I forgot......are you one of the New Age Hollow Point guys or one of the Old Phart RNFP Overpenetration Be Damned guys? Be careful with your answer as someone may whiz in your eggnog.
I'm a dude in his 40's who bought up some jhp's but just can't find it in himself to abandon 45 fmj, & will soon be ordering some Buffalo bore 230 gr fp

Now in 9mm , jhp is ok LOL.
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  #79  
Old 12-10-2010, 01:25 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Originally Posted by RandyP View Post
Can't we all discuss something far less controversial than this? You know, like whose god is better than the others?

lol
You mean gods? Sorry, too many episodes of Battlestar Galactica! Frackin SyFy (formerly SciFi) Channel.
  #80  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:58 PM
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You mean gods? Sorry, too many episodes of Battlestar Galactica! Frackin SyFy (formerly SciFi) Channel.
God is an invention of the Priest class to subjugate the Peasant masses.
  #81  
Old 12-10-2010, 03:58 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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God is an invention of the Priest class to subjugate the Peasant masses.
Rifter: Does that include Cylons?
  #82  
Old 12-10-2010, 04:10 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by rottman43055 View Post
I'm a dude in his 40's who bought up some jhp's but just can't find it in himself to abandon 45 fmj, & will soon be ordering some Buffalo bore 230 gr fp

Now in 9mm , jhp is ok LOL.

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  #83  
Old 12-10-2010, 05:15 PM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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I'm not THAT crazy
  #84  
Old 12-10-2010, 05:43 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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A Prozac Moment!
  #85  
Old 12-10-2010, 10:38 PM
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Rifter: Does that include Cylons?
Of course. They are just machines after all, regardless of their outer covering.
  #86  
Old 12-11-2010, 12:21 PM
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A cheap Hollowpoint that is "bonded" (like Gold Dots or HST) will always work better in serious SD caliburs than the best fmj for SD on humans ! Its science, and you can talk all day till your blue in the face or write many a long winded post (trying to justify ur favorite) attempting to persuade others that somehow all these facts are wrong, but... it is was it is, and just by writing longer and more repetitious posts (without any facts) will not give anyone the per say; "The Authoritive Last Word" on the subject !
Including ME
  #87  
Old 12-11-2010, 12:34 PM
VietVet USMC 1968 VietVet USMC 1968 is offline
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Originally Posted by XBOXER View Post
A cheap Hollowpoint that is "bonded" (like Gold Dots or HST) will always work better in serious SD caliburs than the best fmj for SD on humans ! Its science, and you can talk all day till your blue in the face or write many a long winded post (trying to justify ur favorite) attempting to persuade others that somehow all these facts are wrong, but... it is was it is, and just by writing longer and more repetitious posts (without any facts) will not give anyone the per say; "The Authoritive Last Word" on the subject !
Including ME
Why Bonded?
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Last edited by VietVet USMC 1968; 12-11-2010 at 12:42 PM.
  #88  
Old 12-11-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by XBOXER View Post
A cheap Hollowpoint that is "bonded" (like Gold Dots or HST) will always work better in serious SD caliburs than the best fmj for SD on humans ! Its science, and you can talk all day till your blue in the face or write many a long winded post (trying to justify ur favorite) attempting to persuade others that somehow all these facts are wrong, but... it is was it is, and just by writing longer and more repetitious posts (without any facts) will not give anyone the per say; "The Authoritive Last Word" on the subject !
Including ME
Sorry, but you gotta prove to me that said hollow point is going to expand every single time, and I don't think you can do that. If it doesn't, then its no better than that FMJ round, bonded or not. I am not slamming hollow points at all, just pointing out a fact.
  #89  
Old 12-11-2010, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
Sorry, but you gotta prove to me that said hollow point is going to expand every single time, and I don't think you can do that. If it doesn't, then its no better than that FMJ round, bonded or not. I am not slamming hollow points at all, just pointing out a fact.
Exactly.

The very worst a JHP will do is act as a FMJ. It's bottom performance is your choice's normal performance.
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  #90  
Old 12-11-2010, 01:15 PM
aric aric is offline
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.

Last edited by aric; 03-26-2011 at 12:18 AM.
  #91  
Old 12-11-2010, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BillD View Post
Exactly.

The very worst a JHP will do is act as a FMJ. It's bottom performance is your choice's normal performance.

You imply that the performance of a FMJ is inadequate. There are other factors involved in choosing a FMJ or a HP beyond expansion. Things like accuracy, feeding reliability, cost, availability, certain legal or quai-legal considerations, etc.

I've already indicated I prefer a FMJ-FP over a standard FMJ-RN or a hollow point. I've found that they feed better, in general, than hollow points. They're cheaper, which allows me to shoot almost twice as many rounds in practice as hollow points. And, since I've shot several tens of thousands of the Hornady 230 FMJ-FP, I know exactly how it will react under any conditions I'm likely to encounter. I can't even say that about standard FMJ ball, let alone any hollow point available over the last 35 years.
  #92  
Old 12-11-2010, 02:08 PM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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LittleLebowski,

The bounceing off your ribs after going thru your elbow is what scares me about jhp's.

Someone on an earlier post or another thread mentioned seeing the xrays of a jhp going 4" into a BG's shuolder, breaking it & stopping & the guy was in jail that night. Again, that doesn't seem like very much penetration power to me. JMO

Last edited by rottman43055; 12-11-2010 at 02:13 PM.
  #93  
Old 12-11-2010, 02:20 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
Exactly. Why NOT stack the deck in your own favor? Below is the 230 grain HP that went through my elbow and bounced off my ribs.



I think the point Rifter and I are making is that a 230 gr fmj-fp or truncated cone bullet would have penetrated your elbow and your rib, not bounced off. Personally, I am glad that the bullet did bounce off. We disagree, but I'd buy you a beer if we ever met. Problem is we'd probably resort to "Tastes great!", "Less filling", "Tastes great!", "Less filling!"
  #94  
Old 12-11-2010, 02:23 PM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
You don't think it just might be slowed down a tad after going the bones that comprised my elbow? Just maybe?
Sure it did & I am glad it stopped.

That said if I ever had to shoot a BG I would hope the an arm wouldn't stop the round from going thru ribs and doing internal damage.
  #95  
Old 12-11-2010, 04:48 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by rottman43055 View Post
Sure it did & I am glad it stopped.

That said if I ever had to shoot a BG I would hope the an arm wouldn't stop the round from going thru ribs and doing internal damage.
To be fair, I can think of at least a dozen cases off the top of my head where FMJ failed to penetrate as adequately as you might thing. There're a couple of cases that come to mind where even the vaunted .357 from near point blank range entered the skin, glanced off the skull and excised a path around the skull under the skin rather than penetrate bone.

There are some cases that exist where even ball, yes, ball, the "great penetrator", failed to make it past the rib cage.

What you and Rifter and NonPCnraRN seem to assume is that just by taking expansion out of the equation, these different types of bullets are going to penetrate 100% every time vs. the hollowpoint failing to expand some percent of the time or behaving oddly because it did expand some percent of the time. This is clearly not the case if you actually study real world shooting cases. There is no guarantee that the round is going to behave 100% in the human body because there are nearly an infinite number of variables at play that the bullet, no matter WHAT flavor you choose, has to contend with.

You guys know that I am one who dedicates his time to studying these kinds of cases (oh if only there were some way I could get PAID to do it ), and I'm not going to lie to anyone or bet on any horse in the race, nor is my post simply going to take sides. ALL I'm attempting to point out here, as a reality check, is that you cannot rely on any particular design to function 100% of the time in terms of actually penetrating and doing what you want it to do in real human flesh, no matter WHAT it is.

We can do lots of things that increase the odds one way or the other. But at the end of the day, we're still talking about a kinetically-propelled mass that encounters barriers of various densities that will affect the velocity of said mass negatively to varying degrees based on a host of factors. The physics hare blind to whatever projectile you choose to insert into the equation, save for various profiles having various fluid dynamic characteristics.
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  #96  
Old 12-11-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by VietVet USMC 1968 View Post
Why Bonded?
Because Bonded bullets retain almost all their weight thus allowing maximum penetration. As Bill stated the worst that Bonded Hollow Point can do is act like a FMJ, wich was the point I poorly attempted to make
Me, I'm a big FANBOY of Gold Dots (they all bonded) but the fact that they cater to reloaders at decent prices helps in the decision. I have shot many different wieghts and caliburs of them into about anything you can think of from 600 fps to 2500 fps and guess what, every one worked at the very least as good as a FMJ ! Anything besides cinder blocks or other matierial of like hardness, they expand consistently and reliabley. Even in the pre-mentioned solid target scenario...they still flatten out and retain their weight (unless its the sharp edge of the ax ).
  #97  
Old 12-11-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
To be fair, I can think of at least a dozen cases off the top of my head where FMJ failed to penetrate as adequately as you might thing. There're a couple of cases that come to mind where even the vaunted .357 from near point blank range entered the skin, glanced off the skull and excised a path around the skull under the skin rather than penetrate bone.

There are some cases that exist where even ball, yes, ball, the "great penetrator", failed to make it past the rib cage.

What you and Rifter and NonPCnraRN seem to assume is that just by taking expansion out of the equation, these different types of bullets are going to penetrate 100% every time vs. the hollowpoint failing to expand some percent of the time or behaving oddly because it did expand some percent of the time. This is clearly not the case if you actually study real world shooting cases. There is no guarantee that the round is going to behave 100% in the human body because there are nearly an infinite number of variables at play that the bullet, no matter WHAT flavor you choose, has to contend with.

You guys know that I am one who dedicates his time to studying these kinds of cases (oh if only there were some way I could get PAID to do it ), and I'm not going to lie to anyone or bet on any horse in the race, nor is my post simply going to take sides. ALL I'm attempting to point out here, as a reality check, is that you cannot rely on any particular design to function 100% of the time in terms of actually penetrating and doing what you want it to do in real human flesh, no matter WHAT it is.

We can do lots of things that increase the odds one way or the other. But at the end of the day, we're still talking about a kinetically-propelled mass that encounters barriers of various densities that will affect the velocity of said mass negatively to varying degrees based on a host of factors. The physics hare blind to whatever projectile you choose to insert into the equation, save for various profiles having various fluid dynamic characteristics.
Very good points !!
  #98  
Old 12-11-2010, 07:52 PM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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DK: Your points are well taken. No bullet is perfect. I too know of a PD friend who shot a perp in the forehead with a 357 mag and it went underneath the scalp and out the top of his head. A couple of things need to be clarified. SWC, truncated cone and especially WFN are known for tracking straighter than rn ball ammo. The edge of the WFN especially tends to plow straight through bone rather than being deflected. To a lesser extent SWC and TC bullets do the same. They hit bone, smash it and keep going. Like I said the WFN or LFN is least likely deflected or stop. That is why you can shoot an 1800 lb bison with a 335 gr LFN .452 hardcast at 1300 fps and the bullet will plow through the near shoulder and out the other side of the bison. There is something about the wide meplat that tends to make the bullet track straight. Ask Randy Garrett whose 45-70 hardcast bullets have taken Africa's Big 5. Not a 458 Win Mag, a 45-70. One of his 550 gr bullets plowed through both shoulders of a Cape Buffalo and killed a smaller Cape Buffalo unseen on the other side of the intended target. Again with a flat nosed hard cast bullet from a 45-70. Not a round nosed steel jacketed bullet from a 458, a 45-70. Back to the 45 ACP. The same design principle applies to the size of the meplat and the ability of the bullet to track straight through regardless of tissue encounterd. I am glad the HP in the previous example did stop. I am not all that enamoured with rn ball ammo either. But change the design slightly to include a flat point and the bullet will perform as Rifter has stated. I am glad that we have choices as to what ammo we use and as I stated here before I hope no one has to find out how effective his or her ammo is. Read "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets" by Veral Smith. He can explain the physics involved of tissue destruction by hardcast bullets with large meplats. Who is he? He designed the LBT moulds used by commercial casters such as Beartooth Bullets and others. His WFN and LFN designs are to the Keith SWC bullet what the Keith bullet was to the round nosed bullet regarding killing efficiency. Writings by Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets and Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore can also shed light on how and why these style bullets kill all out of proportion to what common sense would dictate. Prior to Garrett ammo, if someone said they were going after Africa's Big 5 with a Marlin 45-70 he would have been locked up. Vince Lupo is the hunter who did just that and made the double kill when shooting a Cape Buffalo, IIRC. These are not stunts. A lot of hunters were asked by their PH to leave their Marlins and ammo behind because they had never seen charging animals stopped as quickly as those stopped by heavy hardcast LFN and WFN bullets from a levergun. Is it so hard to believe that the same design scaled down for the 45 ACP wouldn't have similar results on BGs?

Last edited by NonPCnraRN; 12-11-2010 at 07:55 PM.
  #99  
Old 12-11-2010, 07:57 PM
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Dude, pleeeeease - try a paragraph once in a while. No offence meant but seriously - matter how good your stuff might be, people are just going to skip reading it.
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  #100  
Old 12-11-2010, 08:05 PM
JimD303 JimD303 is offline
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Dude, pleeeeease - try a paragraph once in a while. No offence meant but seriously - matter how good your stuff might be, people are just going to skip reading it.
Agreed!

In response to one of the above posts, HST isn't bonded. Federal's "Tactical" is their bonded bullet line.

Non-bonded rounds tend to shed jackets more frequently when passing through tough barriers like auto-glass. Bonded retain the jacket, retaining weight (energy) giving you more damage (energy transfer) into the target.
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