FMJ vs JHP...Will FMJ get the job done for SD? - Page 3 - 1911Forum
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  #51  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:20 AM
NETim NETim is offline
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First time I've ever seen this topic discussed here.

I won't own a handgun that won't reliably feed JHP's.

I use JHP's for SD purposes. If it expands, good. If it doesn't, it's still a .45.

JHP's are less prone to ricochet from my understanding. I don't know of any LE agency that DOESN'T use JHP ammo.

That's good enough for me.
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  #52  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:30 AM
BDA45 BDA45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Lastly, wouldn't is be interesting if a low cost lead WFN compared favorably to an expensive hollow point? How many people here shoot their expensive hollowpoint ammo exclusively including range practice? You have every right to feel I am full of Bravo Sierra, thats what makes these forums interesting. Flame away, I have my Nomex underwear on.
I don't know why you'd think I disagree or your observations full of BS. I am familiar with the G27 and would have no qualms whatsoever with using my range Fiocchi 180 grain flat nosed FMJ for self defense. I like these discussions as well - and the data that gets drawn out and linked. The more you know the more you know.
  #53  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:37 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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Lots of excellent information and conversation. To the OP original question, I would answer that Yes, FMJ will get the job done quite well for Self Defense. HPs will also get the job done quite well.

If you keep shooting, as many teach, until the threat is neutralized or you run out of ammo....neither round will make the BG more deader than the other.

While IMHO there can never be any 'absolutes' in the real world, using the basic Mozambique technique each time will generally suffice against most would-be attackers.
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
That is something I have pointed out previously on numerous occasions. There is no gel testing that I know of that compares a non expanding bullet with a large meplat to hollowpoints. The ammo manufacturers jumped from RN bullets to HPs for autopistols. The truncated cone, LFN and WFN bullets are ignored for the most part. Without any testing we have to rely on anecdotal evidence by hunters as to the effectiveness of the TC, LFN, and WFN on game. The other point I was trying to make regarding these bullets is that they perform the same way each time. Too slow and HPs don't expand, too fast and they break apart, they do plug up with debris and don't expand. This happens often enough that you can't say a hollow point will perform optimally 100% of the time. Not everyone who carrys a 1911 is interested in just SD against humans. With a WFN 255 gr bullet at 950 fps and set up accordingly, the 1911 would make a great trail gun. As I have pointed out before, such a load would approximate the original load for the Colt SAA or Model P. A WFN bullet of the same weight would improve over the original RNFP. Unfortunately ammo makers such as Buffalo Bore and Double Tap are relatively new to the ammo scene and offer something other than either round nose or hollowpoint ammo. As and example I have some Double Tap 200 gr WFN hardcast 40 S&W ammo. The bullet has a meplat wider than Rosie O'donnell's rear. It would be beneficial to see this tested in gel along side a quality hollowpoint used as a standard. The 200 gr WFN is softer shooting than the 180 gr jacketed HP of similar velocity, is very accurate in my G23 and G27 and cuts nice wadcutter type holes in targets. Even in the G27 I would have no qualms about protecting myself against anything on 2 or 4 legs except for the larger bears (grizzly). The little G27 is not a hunting arm, but it is comforting to know that I can drop a gun in the pocket of my hiking shorts or pants and be able to launch a 200 gr bullet at over 1000 fps. I would expect even better performance from a 255 gr .45 cal hardcast WFN bullet out of a full sized 1911at 950 fps. If rounds such as these perform well on game will they perform any less against humans? Admittedly the penetration needed for a human target is less than that needed for deer or hog. But I don't have to worry about the bullet not reaching vital organs regardless of the BG's size or what he's wearing. I see people ask questions regarding ammo for winter vs summer and think just pick one load that will work in the worst case scenario and be done with it. I just wish the ammo companies that produce WFN and heavy for caliber FP ammo would do some gel testing or publish the results if they have done so. Lastly, wouldn't is be interesting if a low cost lead WFN compared favorably to an expensive hollow point? How many people here shoot their expensive hollowpoint ammo exclusively including range practice? You have every right to feel I am full of Bravo Sierra, thats what makes these forums interesting. Flame away, I have my Nomex underwear on.
I've actually seen what a FMJ-FP does in ballistic gel first hand (in addition to RN, and cast SWC types, but no HPs). To say it was an eye opener is an understatement of the first water. Every caliber I've loaded extensively for over the years in handguns I have used Keith style semi-wadcutter flat points. Speer used to have a 160 gr. half jacket that you could push to incredible speeds. The jacket usually came off in the target, but that SWC chunk of lead punched a huge hole and was exceedingly accurate. In .44 Spl and .44 Mag, I used a very hard cast 250 gr. Keith style that left holes you could drive a truck through; same thing with a 260 gr. cast in .45 Colt (.44 Mag level loads in a Ruger Blackhawk). I've even used that same 260 gr. in the .45 ACP with superb results. But even at normal velocity, those bullets worked every single time. In those days, hollow points were hit or miss. I've seen plenty of .357 and .44 HPs fail to open or only expand a little bit, and even seen some that blew up on the surface with very little penetration.

Hollow points today are much better both in design and construction, and vastly more reliable than they were then. But, as you say, there is always that little tickle in the back of my mind making me wonder if it is going to expand the way it is designed. Nobody can guarantee that a HP bullet is going to give optimum expansion every time regardless of conditions present. A SWC will do the same thing every time because it doesn't depend on expansion to do its job.
  #55  
Old 12-09-2010, 11:28 AM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
I've actually seen what a FMJ-FP does in ballistic gel first hand (in addition to RN, and cast SWC types, but no HPs). To say it was an eye opener is an understatement of the first water. Every caliber I've loaded extensively for over the years in handguns I have used Keith style semi-wadcutter flat points. Speer used to have a 160 gr. half jacket that you could push to incredible speeds. The jacket usually came off in the target, but that SWC chunk of lead punched a huge hole and was exceedingly accurate. In .44 Spl and .44 Mag, I used a very hard cast 250 gr. Keith style that left holes you could drive a truck through; same thing with a 260 gr. cast in .45 Colt (.44 Mag level loads in a Ruger Blackhawk). I've even used that same 260 gr. in the .45 ACP with superb results. But even at normal velocity, those bullets worked every single time. In those days, hollow points were hit or miss. I've seen plenty of .357 and .44 HPs fail to open or only expand a little bit, and even seen some that blew up on the surface with very little penetration.

Hollow points today are much better both in design and construction, and vastly more reliable than they were then. But, as you say, there is always that little tickle in the back of my mind making me wonder if it is going to expand the way it is designed. Nobody can guarantee that a HP bullet is going to give optimum expansion every time regardless of conditions present. A SWC will do the same thing every time because it doesn't depend on expansion to do its job.
Thanks for your post. I was beginning to feel like a conservative in San Francisco. I imagine that a WFN with a larger meplat would create an even bigger wound than the SWCs. It is refreshing to hear from someone who has actually seen these results first hand. Were any pictures or measurements taken that can be posted here? What I noticed most about gel tests is that the expanded bullets are used to illustrate performance. As you have seen the hardcast SWC or WFN will not change shape but yet the wound cavity is large. It would really be informative to see these gel results side by side with any premium hp bullet. Thanks again for your post, it was a refreshing change from being told I am stupid and unable to learn. Having been a cancer nurse specializing in pain control for 18 of my 20 year nursing career I have dealt with grieving people saying derogatory things to me due to physical and emotional pain. I never took it personally. But it does kind of sting when that kind of language is used on a forum dealing with an activity like shooting firearms. I laughed it off at first and made a joke about it but I guess it affected me more than I thought. Reading your post helped me shrug it off. Thanks again.
  #56  
Old 12-09-2010, 11:37 AM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Originally Posted by BDA45 View Post
I don't know why you'd think I disagree or your observations full of BS. I am familiar with the G27 and would have no qualms whatsoever with using my range Fiocchi 180 grain flat nosed FMJ for self defense. I like these discussions as well - and the data that gets drawn out and linked. The more you know the more you know.
Sorry BDA45, I meant "you" as in hollowpoint proponents, not you personally. I should have been more clear.
  #57  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:34 PM
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What we have here is a perfect subject for the WATERMELON TEST.

We have to first line up three good sized melons (the long one not the round ones, that is six total) and fire both types of round, FMJ and HP into the first melon of the line, and see what happens. How the penetration works and what the expansion does to each melon should tell you what you want to know. The melon's hard skins will act like cloth so it should be a good test.

Any bets on how many watermelons they will each penetrate?

You don't need all the fancy ballistic gel stuff, just three watermelons.

Here is some test results.

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-7.html

http://custompistols.com/bengtson/articles/ammorslt.HTM

The WATERMELON TEST is easier to conduct, and more fun too!

Last edited by DGG1; 12-09-2010 at 12:52 PM.
  #58  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Thanks for your post. I was beginning to feel like a conservative in San Francisco. I imagine that a WFN with a larger meplat would create an even bigger wound than the SWCs. It is refreshing to hear from someone who has actually seen these results first hand. Were any pictures or measurements taken that can be posted here? What I noticed most about gel tests is that the expanded bullets are used to illustrate performance. As you have seen the hardcast SWC or WFN will not change shape but yet the wound cavity is large. It would really be informative to see these gel results side by side with any premium hp bullet. Thanks again for your post, it was a refreshing change from being told I am stupid and unable to learn. Having been a cancer nurse specializing in pain control for 18 of my 20 year nursing career I have dealt with grieving people saying derogatory things to me due to physical and emotional pain. I never took it personally. But it does kind of sting when that kind of language is used on a forum dealing with an activity like shooting firearms. I laughed it off at first and made a joke about it but I guess it affected me more than I thought. Reading your post helped me shrug it off. Thanks again.
Thank YOU! It is nice to know that I'm not just talking to the wall.
  #59  
Old 12-09-2010, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
Any "self defense" pistol that can't feed quality JHP ammo isn't worth having.

Yeah, Sgt York used FMJ and folks have been killed by muskets too. See the logical progression there? Pretty soon we'll have the flint spearhead and logn stock contingent show up. "If it was good enough for the Colonial Army, then it's good enough for me!" Mentally ossified traditionalists.

Stupid line of reasoning. Find a quality JHP round. If your pistol doesn't feed JHPs have it fixed or replaced.
One does not necessarily choose FMJ over JHP because the gun won't run JHPs reliably. So you sir are the one who needs work on your (il)logic.

The only support for your assertion that my logic breaks down is if you can prove undeniably to me that JHPs are necessary, or superior, for self defense purposes. Claiming that illogic is born from not buying into your assertion is the sign of an insecure, unsubstantiated position.

Your exhortation to use JHPs shouldn't be anyone's basis for doing so. Some guys use straight FMJ, some use "cocktails", and many of them do so in guns that feed anything. They do what they do for solid reasons.

I'll take twentieth century battlefield testing PLUS my own independent tests over what "some guy on the Internet" says, every time.

Outside of .45 ACP, yes, good JHPs are called for. I know what the 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot does that is advantageous over 9mm FMJs, so I carry the Gold Dots when I carry 9mm.

It was Corporal York at the time, by the way. His actions that included M1911 usage earned him sergeant stripes and the Medal of Honor.
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2010, 09:13 PM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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testing

The Border patrol has been testing the conventional R-P 155g .400" bullet on people for a number of years with stellar results.
The Secret Service, the Air Marshalls, and more relevantly, the Texas DPS (who switched AWAY from the 45 ACP due to performance issues) have been testing with great success the 357 SIG-launched 124/125g JHPs on people.
The people who shoot people with the 45 ACP have good results with the R-P 230g Golden Saber.

My favorite projectile remains my car; wife's car in a pinch.


I know, "Need the link" to make it true.....wankers.



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  #61  
Old 12-09-2010, 09:27 PM
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I think we can all agree quite readily on the fact that SWC/Flat Nosed bullets will be effective, and because do not expand, they are not susceptible to failures. I maintain that an unexpanded hollowpoint is nothing more than a forcefully-created flat nosed bullet.

However, that being said, given today's ammunition markets, a quality HP will serve you just fine if it's between that and Ball-profile FMJ. If you're a reloader or have sources for quality SWC bullets, or prefer that load, then by all means, use it.

I have posted a lot of data in a sticky entitled "Ballistics Info" that should help.
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  #62  
Old 12-09-2010, 09:51 PM
Robert101 Robert101 is offline
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I haven't read all of the posts but it seems that overpenetration is always brought up as a concern. Can someone please tell me what handgun caliber reliably shoots through limited barriers and its human targets?

I personally don't share the concerns about overpenetration in self-defense handguns - 44 mag now that is a different story.
  #63  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:21 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert101 View Post
I haven't read all of the posts but it seems that overpenetration is always brought up as a concern. Can someone please tell me what handgun caliber reliably shoots through limited barriers and its human targets?

I personally don't share the concerns about overpenetration in self-defense handguns - 44 mag now that is a different story.
9mm and 40 smith in ball profile have the concern of overpenetrating their targets and causing damage on the other side.

Dr. Gary Roberts says this, and i agree with him:

Quote:
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.
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  #64  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert101 View Post
I haven't read all of the posts but it seems that overpenetration is always brought up as a concern. Can someone please tell me what handgun caliber reliably shoots through limited barriers and its human targets?

I personally don't share the concerns about overpenetration in self-defense handguns - 44 mag now that is a different story.

JimD303 has provided some links on page 2
  #65  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:35 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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One of the things I think that comes up in these threads once all the ego comes out is that there are folks who like ball ammunition and like flat nosed bullets, they don't trust Hollowpoints, and they have a significant reason to go with what they know: they SEE what their loads can do and they trust it.

Others who have a different approach read a lot of testing data, study real world shooting events, and they trust that technology that shows significant success is worth buying into.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that there is NO argument that FMJ, SWC, and HP ammo will ALL do damage and can all be lethal, and can all damage tissue. The basic rules of physics and how things work hasn't changed in the past few hundred years as far as I know.

Where ballistics nerds like myself tend to go is in this realm of "theoretical increase of damage". I.E., into the realm of how much tissue is damaged and how different types of bullets will behave in tissue and what damage it will do.

I still am not sure I agree with Rifter and NonPCnraRN as to a .45-cal SWC round making a .6 or .7-caliber hole in a target. It may cut more flesh than simply pushing it aside, but I would need to see it for myself in repeatable studies to agree with that.

However, that aside, there's no question that a SWC round will have similar effects in tissue to an expanded hollowpoint by virtue of its flat face. The differences in the capabilities of these rounds vs. Hollowpoints can be debated (if the SWC's .451" diameter makes a .6 or .7" hole, then surely a properly expanding hollowpoint with a face of .75-.9" will make even larger a hole), but it's again academic.

All that is required, and all that is reliable, in a gunfight for incapacitation of a threat is blood loss or a hit to the central nervous system. While we can argue all day on these forums how best to achieve these results and what loads present the best possible capabilities, etc., what it boils down to is that if you hit your target and are willing to shoot until the threat stops, whatever load you decide to use is going to get the job done. The rest is academics.
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  #66  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:37 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
One does not necessarily choose FMJ over JHP because the gun won't run JHPs reliably. So you sir are the one who needs work on your (il)logic.

The only support for your assertion that my logic breaks down is if you can prove undeniably to me that JHPs are necessary, or superior, for self defense purposes. Claiming that illogic is born from not buying into your assertion is the sign of an insecure, unsubstantiated position.

Your exhortation to use JHPs shouldn't be anyone's basis for doing so. Some guys use straight FMJ, some use "cocktails", and many of them do so in guns that feed anything. They do what they do for solid reasons.

I'll take twentieth century battlefield testing PLUS my own independent tests over what "some guy on the Internet" says, every time.

Outside of .45 ACP, yes, good JHPs are called for. I know what the 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot does that is advantageous over 9mm FMJs, so I carry the Gold Dots when I carry 9mm.

It was Corporal York at the time, by the way. His actions that included M1911 usage earned him sergeant stripes and the Medal of Honor.
I'm not going to step into the argument about who's bigger than who, but I will say this:

Hollowpoints aren't NECESSARY, per se. However, if you do the research, there are thousands upon thousands of cases of real world shootings that support the fact that a hollowpoint can cause more trauma and damage than a ball-profile FMJ bullet. Given that, they offer the potential for superior performance merely by the fact that they can produce more blood loss.
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  #67  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:40 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Thanks for your post. I was beginning to feel like a conservative in San Francisco. I imagine that a WFN with a larger meplat would create an even bigger wound than the SWCs. It is refreshing to hear from someone who has actually seen these results first hand. Were any pictures or measurements taken that can be posted here? What I noticed most about gel tests is that the expanded bullets are used to illustrate performance. As you have seen the hardcast SWC or WFN will not change shape but yet the wound cavity is large. It would really be informative to see these gel results side by side with any premium hp bullet. Thanks again for your post, it was a refreshing change from being told I am stupid and unable to learn. Having been a cancer nurse specializing in pain control for 18 of my 20 year nursing career I have dealt with grieving people saying derogatory things to me due to physical and emotional pain. I never took it personally. But it does kind of sting when that kind of language is used on a forum dealing with an activity like shooting firearms. I laughed it off at first and made a joke about it but I guess it affected me more than I thought. Reading your post helped me shrug it off. Thanks again.
You are stupid and are the only conservative in San Francisco, what are you talking about?

Where I tend to get the most frustrated is when presenting as much data as I can that comes from real, hard evidence and have it dismissed out of hand, or at the very least not considered with an open mind, so I feel your pain. I don't ever go into these things to start a pissing contest, but sadly few want to discuss these things calmly and present evidence, just throw dirt.
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  #68  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:42 PM
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And as usual, this is yet another "You're fulla crap" argument which IMHO directs our energy and attention away from what should be our real focus, FUNDAMENTALS!.

1) Marksmanship
2) Basic gun handling skills

I know, it's way cool to discuss guns n' gear.

Shouldn't we worry more about things like our drawstroke and situational awareness?
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  #69  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:49 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by NETim View Post
And as usual, this is yet another "You're fulla crap" argument which IMHO directs our energy and attention away from what should be our real focus, FUNDAMENTALS!.

1) Marksmanship
2) Basic gun handling skills

I know, it's way cool to discuss guns n' gear.

Shouldn't we worry more about things like our drawstroke and situational awareness?
it's easier to have an "I'm better than you" discussion about types of ammo than the fundamentals.
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  #70  
Old 12-09-2010, 11:13 PM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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These discussions are enjoyable. I really doubt any BG gets this concerned over his ammo though, or shooting fundamentals

I'd say in .45, any bullet is going to do damage. There have been several murders (atleast 8) here lately with .45 in my area.

My paramedic friend who has saw a lot of gun shot wounds was on scene recently to a murder suicide of a husband and wife and said some rounds completely blew thru one of them and done a lot of damage.

Another rather large fellow died on the scene from a single 45 to the chest. Actually I believe they all died on the scene.

I don't know the bullet type of any of these but I'm guessing they where not all premium loads.

I actually have my wifes 9mm loaded up with gold dots because in that round I would be afraid of any shot with fmj that wasn't right on a lethal target would either deflect of bone or simple just not do enough damage.

We shoot alot in the warm months and I am going to bump her up to a .40.
She has lupas and the joint pain make heavy recoil out of the question for her.

Last edited by rottman43055; 12-09-2010 at 11:29 PM.
  #71  
Old 12-09-2010, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rottman43055 View Post
These discussions are enjoyable. I really doubt any BG gets this concerned over his ammo though, or shooting fundamentals
I doubt if the BG's do get too wound up about their ammo choices. Probably whatever they can steal or buy cheap.

However, I think it's a mistake to underestimate your potential opponent's skill, their dedication and determination to win the fight.

Gang bangers are sending members into the US Army to learn tactics and then return home to teach their fellow gang bangers.

Not a good situation for us good guys.
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  #72  
Old 12-09-2010, 11:35 PM
HungrySeagull HungrySeagull is offline
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Thanks everyone for a wonderful thread.

I have shot Gold Dots and will stick with them. I did adopt some Federal HST which are basically just the same as the Gold Dots.

I do try to manage my cost of ammunition through regular shoots and training classes over time during the year.

I remember a World War One story somewhere where rifle rounds were taken out of the case and reversed then reloaded; so that the butt of the round hit first spalling enemy snipers behind their plates.

I think the rounds I shoot with the 1911 have done well and I will not change to anything else. However, my other .45 which is half plastic will basically eat anything for half the cost. Just a thought.
  #73  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:59 AM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Be it hollow point, SWC, round nose, truncated cone, et al, I hope that none of the members here find themselves in harm's way and have to find out if what they carry will do the job. Should anyone here find themselves in a grave situation I pray they prevail. I have learned a lot from these discussions. May you all enjoy the Holidays whatever you call them. For me it is Christmas. I hope you and your loved ones stay safe during the Silly Season and that we enjoy many more spirited discussions for the rest of 2010 and for years to come. Sorry for going OT but I think we sometimes need to take stock that we as gun owners are bound together by our love of freedom and will defend it with a firearm if required. We may squabble like siblings but I will wager that we will come together to defend our firearms and our freedom.
  #74  
Old 12-10-2010, 08:25 AM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Be it hollow point, SWC, round nose, truncated cone, et al, I hope that none of the members here find themselves in harm's way and have to find out if what they carry will do the job. Should anyone here find themselves in a grave situation I pray they prevail. I have learned a lot from these discussions. May you all enjoy the Holidays whatever you call them. For me it is Christmas. I hope you and your loved ones stay safe during the Silly Season and that we enjoy many more spirited discussions for the rest of 2010 and for years to come. Sorry for going OT but I think we sometimes need to take stock that we as gun owners are bound together by our love of freedom and will defend it with a firearm if required. We may squabble like siblings but I will wager that we will come together to defend our firearms and our freedom.
Ditto.
  #75  
Old 12-10-2010, 10:31 AM
rottman43055 rottman43055 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Be it hollow point, SWC, round nose, truncated cone, et al, I hope that none of the members here find themselves in harm's way and have to find out if what they carry will do the job. Should anyone here find themselves in a grave situation I pray they prevail. I have learned a lot from these discussions. May you all enjoy the Holidays whatever you call them. For me it is Christmas. I hope you and your loved ones stay safe during the Silly Season and that we enjoy many more spirited discussions for the rest of 2010 and for years to come. Sorry for going OT but I think we sometimes need to take stock that we as gun owners are bound together by our love of freedom and will defend it with a firearm if required. We may squabble like siblings but I will wager that we will come together to defend our firearms and our freedom.
Amen brother & I'd like to add that this is one of the best forums I have ever been on. We can squabble and still respect one another. Good bunch of guys here.

Now, back to why my ammo is better than yours .....
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