FMJ vs JHP...Will FMJ get the job done for SD? - Page 26 - 1911Forum
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  #626  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:31 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Almost makes me want another gun oil thread.
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  #627  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
You do realize that rounds recommended here that are hollowpoints are recommended based on their effectiveness in the field and use in actual shootings, right?

And you recognize that that data is compounded with clinical analysis of thousands of shooting vicitms in autopsy or surgery, right?

And also, that those tests you don't trust were developed only to show comparative data between loads in homogenous circumstances, right?

Surely you've read the army's reports on ballistics testing, and that of trauma surgeons and other experts who have written informed analysis on the correlation between test media and actual performance, and understand all of the performance data available to you, right?

I mean, it would hardly make for an informed decision if a book of anecdotal accounts that have no substantive correlary data on actual effectiveness holds more weight than the informed data from medical professionals, autopsies, and first hand observations that are well documented, would it?
That is all "good" stuff - agree, and I am familiar with some of it, and is the reason I've been running federal hydrashok in my 45s...That said, with my new learnings from the formentioned book, for a 45 acp pistol (not speaking to any other round), yes, I would take the writings from the actual Vets (hardly antidodal when the vets wrote the esseays, and they mention the stopping power many times), in an actual combat experience, over Lab Gurus compiling data...Now this dosn't mean that the Lab Gurus are wrong, what it does mean to me is exactly this: "For 45 ACP either HP or Ball will get the job done".
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  #628  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:52 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
That is all "good" stuff - agree, and I am familiar with some of it, and is the reason I've been running federal hydrashok in my 45s...That said, with my new learnings from the formentioned book, for a 45 acp pistol (not speaking to any other round), yes, I would take the writings from the actual Vets (hardly antidodal when the vets wrote the esseays, and they mention the stopping power many times), in an actual combat experience, over Lab Gurus compiling data...Now this dosn't mean that the Lab Gurus are wrong, what it does mean to me is exactly this: "For 45 ACP either HP or Ball will get the job done".
You do that. I'll stick to the word of modern day vets and police, as well as people seeing the actual outcome on the body. And yes, vets who write of their experience are anecdotal. All word of mouth is anecdotal, as it comes with no data to verify or compare.

There is a reason why eyewitness testimony alone is considered unreliable.
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  #629  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
You do that. I'll stick to the word of modern day vets and police, as well as people seeing the actual outcome on the body. And yes, vets who write of their experience are anecdotal. All word of mouth is anecdotal, as it comes with no data to verify or compare.

There is a reason why eyewitness testimony alone is considered unreliable.
Good for you. I think you discounting the 45 FMJ as an adaquate fight stopper is very questionable - but you are intitled to your opinion...Read the book, you may change your mind. (Honestly, not sure why you would want to up-front discount actual combat experiences in WW2 and Korea).

For me, I have more options now for PD (FMJ or JHP).
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  #630  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:10 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Good for you. I think you discounting the 45 FMJ as an adaquate fight stopper is very questionable - but you are intitled to your opinion...Read the book, you may change your mind. (Honestly, not sure why you would want to up-front discount actual combat experiences in WW2 and Korea).

For me, I have more options now for PD (FMJ or JHP).
Ah you misunderstand me. If you read back through this thread or any other I have written in, I don't discount it. I discount any opinion based on a lack of data. Now, to summarize my thoughts for you:

Ball works, but round nosed ball leaves smaller than caliber wound channels that lose relatively less blood.

Wadcutters and expanded hollowpoints will do more damage to tissue than round nose ball. This leaves a larger wound channel and promotes more blood loss, and in some marginal hits, can be the difference between effective stops and not based on blood loss.

Most importantly, a pistol in general is a poor choice because they rely on damage done by projectiles alone and do little or no lateral damage with cavitation unlike rifle rounds.

I would encourage you to review the medical analysis video stickied here.
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  #631  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:11 PM
1911cherry 1911cherry is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
Except that most of the modern HPs are tested against car doors, windshields, wallboard, plywood, heavy clothing, and other barriers and are rated on their consistent performance afterwards. They are not recommended for duty use unless they past these tests, known as the FBI protocol.

To pass, a round must penetrate through the barrier and perform 13" of penetration on the other side.

Also, penetration creating a small, easily closed wound channel is less acceptable than penetration creating a large, ragged wound channel. blood loss is the point, not either penetration or expansion. These are two mechanics that create blood loss.
That's great ,blood loss ,if you want to be skull dragged by your attacker while you wait on them to bleed out, whether that attacker be human or animal variety. My target stand is a couple 2x4's and some plywood covering it, those 2x4's stopped some modern performance JHP cold turkey, I will post pics to show it. While some 230 FMJ from the same company blew through 6 inches of rough cut lumber, I will show this as well. I want a round to go through my target; blood will flow from a .451 diameter hole. Either make a lot of holes in target , or disrupt its thought process with a head shot. I think people are expecting a bullet to do too much other than fly its trajectory!
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  #632  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:13 PM
raggedwhole! raggedwhole! is offline
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One magazine with 190 grain SCHP & 230 grain hard ball alternated. Why not have both worlds? I just carry 190 grain SCHP because 190 grain is still heavy for a pistol round. I would carry 230 grain hard ball too without concern.

Last edited by raggedwhole!; 06-10-2013 at 08:16 PM.
  #633  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:16 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911cherry View Post
That's great ,blood loss ,if you want to be skull dragged by your attacker while you wait on them to bleed out, whether that attacker be human or animal variety. My target stand is a couple 2x4's and some plywood covering it, those 2x4's stopped some modern performance JHP cold turkey, I will post pics to show it. While some 230 FMJ from the same company blew through 6 inches of rough cut lumber, I will show this as well. I want a round to go through my target; blood will flow from a .451 diameter hole. Either make a lot of holes in target , or disrupt its thought process with a head shot. I think people are expecting a bullet to do too much other than fly its trajectory!
If you have not done so, you should review the medical analysis of gunshot wounds video.

Also, would you care to see pictures of JHPs going through steel car doors, windshields, 2x4s and so on? I have those too. We can compare.

Until then, shoot until the threat stops, and do look at the great data out there that shows objective performance of bullets, since while I'm sure your statement about lumber is accurate, it is by no means representative of even the Box o Truth's testing, dubios as it is.
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  #634  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:20 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
If you have not done so, you should review the medical analysis of gunshot wounds video.

Also, would you care to see pictures of JHPs going through steel car doors, windshields, 2x4s and so on? I have those too. We can compare.

Until then, shoot until the threat stops, and do look at the great data out there that shows objective performance of bullets, since while I'm sure your statement about lumber is accurate, it is by no means representative of even the Box o Truth's testing, dubios as it is.
Also I want to add, shooting until the threat stops is ALWAYS a good thing as you are right that there is no magic bullet. While I advocate bullets that can increase the damage done by the bullet, shot placement is key.

Finally, one point you are wrong about: the bullet tract left by an FMJ ball round In human or animal tissue is not .451. It's actually usually roughly 25-50% smaller due to tissue elasticity that causes the wound to close in on itself after the initial trauma. Once a hole is made into the chest cavity and into vital organs, too, further penetration is of vastly reduced value as whether the blood is going into the body cavity our out of the wound, it is leaving the cardiovascular system and is no longer feeding the body. Through and through wounds do nothing to increase the rate of blood loss.
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  #635  
Old 06-10-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by raggedwhole! View Post
One magazine with 190 grain SCHP & 230 grain hard ball alternated. Why not have both worlds? I just carry 190 grain SCHP because 190 grain is still heavy for a pistol round. I would carry 230 grain hard ball too without concern.
+1 ---With my new learnings about 230 g FMJ in Combat, I am thinking of going this route...ball, HP, ball, Hp, etc.
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  #636  
Old 06-10-2013, 09:26 PM
1911cherry 1911cherry is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
+1 ---With my new learnings about 230 g FMJ in Combat, I am thinking of going this route...ball, HP, ball, Hp, etc.
This is a compromise I can live with a heavy JHP and FMJ in the same mag! RaggedWhole is a genius!
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Last edited by 1911cherry; 06-10-2013 at 09:28 PM. Reason: typo
  #637  
Old 06-21-2013, 09:01 PM
pete177 pete177 is offline
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http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Forgive me if the link above was posted already. I thought it was a very thoughtful piece on caliber size and hollow point effectiveness posted by a coroner whose seen thousands of autopsies. I've never been a big believer in the hollow point super bullet theory. I think they work great in a lab but unless your gunfight occurs in a lab there are too many other variables that can foul up a hollow point's effectiveness. What happens if your gunfight occurs outside and there's light brush between you and your target? What if he's a 300lb guy wearing a heavy leather coat? What about oblique shots? What if you need to shoot through groceries sitting on the shelf at your local stop and rob? Through auto glass or door panel? Sure the bullet may go through but will it have enough energy left to penetrate the 300lb BG wearing the heavy leather coat then? Too many variables in the real world. Despite what you may have read about the Hague conventions (we are not signatories btw) regarding hollow point bullets the military uses ball ammo for its' feeding reliability and for it's uniformity of effect on target.
Personally, I've gone to carrying 230gr fmj flat points. Reliability of effect. That's the key.

Last edited by pete177; 06-21-2013 at 09:29 PM.
  #638  
Old 06-24-2013, 08:19 AM
Dr Guido Dr Guido is offline
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Here Here...the motion is seconded. Away with the lawyers and their hollow point ammo.
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  #639  
Old 06-24-2013, 08:30 AM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete177 View Post
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Forgive me if the link above was posted already. I thought it was a very thoughtful piece on caliber size and hollow point effectiveness posted by a coroner whose seen thousands of autopsies. I've never been a big believer in the hollow point super bullet theory. I think they work great in a lab but unless your gunfight occurs in a lab there are too many other variables that can foul up a hollow point's effectiveness. What happens if your gunfight occurs outside and there's light brush between you and your target? What if he's a 300lb guy wearing a heavy leather coat? What about oblique shots? What if you need to shoot through groceries sitting on the shelf at your local stop and rob? Through auto glass or door panel? Sure the bullet may go through but will it have enough energy left to penetrate the 300lb BG wearing the heavy leather coat then? Too many variables in the real world. Despite what you may have read about the Hague conventions (we are not signatories btw) regarding hollow point bullets the military uses ball ammo for its' feeding reliability and for it's uniformity of effect on target.
Personally, I've gone to carrying 230gr fmj flat points. Reliability of effect. That's the key.
Actually, the statement about ball ammo is not entirely correct. The military does, in fact, use hollowpoints in certain circumstances where terminal effects greater than that of ball are required.

And, Ball or Hollowpoint, but will get the job done. i think this thread has more than run its course.
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