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  #51  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:59 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
round nose on 38 special police ammo was a big issue for a long time. Was proven to do a good job at pushing stuff to the side to let the bullet slide through.

Flat point of any kind, well, acts like a hammer.
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2019, 10:22 AM
noshow noshow is offline
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Thank you for the links!
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2019, 10:43 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
And what have you determined from that?
The attributes of soft point flat nose ammo on large game are pretty well known.
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  #54  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:47 PM
mdell49 mdell49 is offline
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Chronographed a couple of different 230 gr ball loadings today. Sig Sauer, that quotes 850fps on the box, averaged 794 fps 5 shots 10' from the start screen. S&B averaged 674 fps. Both from 4 1/4" bbls. I'm guessing that if you were to shoot the Sig ammo from a 5" bbl and corrected the 10' to actual muzzle velocity it would probably break 800fps. The S&B might require a 10" bbl. It would appear from these limited test that before you decide on a carry ammo based on published data you might want to conduct some test of your own.
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  #55  
Old 10-08-2019, 12:27 AM
FNFAN FNFAN is offline
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It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
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  #56  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:39 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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That’s just it. I don’t think anyone is questioning the attributes of the new tech hollow points. It’s a matter of defending the old school stuff. There is far too much blabber about total ineffectiveness from old fashioned lead. I do remember reading something somewhere that a bunch of people were killed with cap and ball somewhere around the 1860’s........but I might be wrong, no one could be injured with a non aerodynamic projectile.
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  #57  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:04 AM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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It's amazing how many shooters believe in the gel block results as the " to be all" SD ammo choice for their handguns .
It's just so ridiculous to think that is even close to what a human body represents , or worse yet the water jug tests .
In a real SHTF situation you don't always have a perfect straight shot to the vital areas and now throw in bones and heavy clothing , not to mention any other barriers between the two .
In a SD situation I want penetration and a big hunk of lead hitting the bad guy like a freight train and I know a Flat Nose bullet will do that and more which has proven that for decades .
I will worry about over penetration after I am still alive , and if I did my job right that should be minimal if any .

Last edited by JB6464; 10-08-2019 at 08:09 AM.
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  #58  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:54 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by FNFAN View Post
It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
a 45/70 buffalo rifle made in 1880, loaded this week with a cartridge loaded with a cast lead round nose flat point, will still kill a buffalo/bison JUST AS GOOD as it did in 1880.

I guess lead is soo ineffective. Guess we need to start making glaser safety slugs for the poor rifle. SOOOO much better on anything I guess because its NEWER?
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  #59  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:12 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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trying to get this back on topic, the hollow point vs. non-hollow point rounds were mentioned in compact [short bbl] big caliber guns, not 38s or full sized anything.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:43 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Fine, someone go ahead and tell me that a Jacketed Flat Point, 44 Mag fired from a 4” Redhawk won’t stop anything. If I didn’t know better, this would be one round that would send the bad guy flying through a window!
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  #61  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:21 AM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Fine, someone go ahead and tell me that a Jacketed Flat Point, 44 Mag fired from a 4” Redhawk won’t stop anything. If I didn’t know better, this would be one round that would send the bad guy flying through a window!
" Do you feel lucky punk , well , do you "
Sorry , had to say it , Clint Eastwood would of .
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  #62  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Fine, someone go ahead and tell me that a Jacketed Flat Point, 44 Mag fired from a 4” Redhawk won’t stop anything. If I didn’t know better, this would be one round that would send the bad guy flying through a window!

Just to illustrate: A .45 Colt 265 gr. wide flat nose punched a hole from the front left shoulder of a whitetail buck, all the way through, and out the opposite ham at 75 yds. Started out at about 1100 fps from a Blackhawk. Dropped him right in his tracks. Didn't take a step. I've also seen a 250 RNFP that started at only 875 or so punch through both shoulders at about 50 yds. Some would call both of those shots just lucky, but that's typical with those kinds of loads from what I've seen over the years.
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  #63  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:35 PM
Hawg1 Hawg1 is offline
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The only bullet I use in a 1911 is a fairly soft cast 230 grain SWC.
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  #64  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:44 PM
jack the toad jack the toad is offline
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Originally Posted by ECHO154 View Post
FWIW I have also seen a fair deal of gunshot victims...some by the hands of others and some self inflicted. Good HPs performed as predicted dumping their energy in the body, with the exception of a self inflicted shot to the right temple. went through and into books on a shelf by his chair. It was the original black Talon in 9mm, fully expanded. I observed a guy shot in the forehead through the peephole on his door. he was sitting calmly in a chair with a small dot in his forehead that was slightly oozy. It was a 25 auto fmj that skimmed the outside of his skull and was a lump under his scalp just above his right ear. On the other hand several times with 9,40 and 45 with ball we had pass through with light barriers penetrated(walls, dresser and other light furniture. WE also had a guy shoot a burglar with a 180 gun hydra-shock in 40 SW. killed the first burglar, passing through him and into his partner in crime, shattering his shoulder joint. bullet showed little expansion and had carhart jacket(heavy cotton duck) stuck in the HP cavity. GD,HST and Winny Ranger have all been solid in the 9-40-45. We shoot a lot of injured deer as well...nothing like an adrenaline stoked deer trying to run on two snapped back legs to test how good a bullet performs.!!!! We had a drive by where the guy in from had an AK and shot through one intended victim inside his house before exiting the rear and.....wait for it....killing a fellow drive by participant blocking the rear with a 9mm....he was quickly determined to be ART!!!
Just for the record, I am in the "use hollow points " camp. However, even super large diameters directly in the brain are non fatal. I won't bother to post the story , but google Phineas Gage sometime.
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  #65  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:12 PM
MisterMills357 MisterMills357 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
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  #66  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:14 PM
HeavyLoad HeavyLoad is offline
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Gold Dots in a short barrel anything expand.
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  #67  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:33 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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Originally Posted by MisterMills357 View Post
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
The bullet doesn't know if it was shot from a short barrel.... it's either moving fast enough to expand or it's not. Shoot anything you might carry, over a chrono and see. I have shot many loads from a 3-4.25" 1911 that are at recommended velocities to expand.

A FMJ is usually a nice smooth rounded nose... not much cutting going on. A JHP usually has an edge that will cut even if it's too slow to expand at all. But these days the bullets are much better and many are designed to expand at lower velocities.

There is only one downside to a slow moving JHP and that's the extra 15 cents per round you paid for it. Small potatoes for so much potential upside.
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  #68  
Old 10-11-2019, 07:39 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by MisterMills357 View Post
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
#66 & #67 are spot on. There are many projectiles designed specifically for “short barrels”. It only has to do with velocity. On the other hand, some ammo manufacturers just shove the same projectile in everything because they don’t care. HeavyLoad is right on the Gold Dot thing, that’s a great example.
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  #69  
Old 10-11-2019, 06:02 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Originally Posted by MisterMills357 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
But have you tried it? I have, works great.

God this thread is hilarious.
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  #70  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:19 AM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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I have a 45acp Colt Defender which has a 3" barrel and I can't get the GS , GD or HST to open up though it .
The bullets just act like a solid round 99% of the time , very few will start to open up just barely if at all .
So I am done paying top dollar for JHP ammo for my short barrel gun , I've went back to using Flat Nose ammo which is much better than round nose FMJ ammo by far .
And I am 100% convinced a big fat 45acp Flat Nose bullet will get the job done if I do my job right , solid ammo has been used for decades before hollow points even came around and got the job done just fine dropping the bad guys .

Last edited by JB6464; 10-12-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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  #71  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:40 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Now yer gonna make me search through a bunch of FivePins threads to prove that theory wrong. Are you shooting into the air and catching them when they come down??
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  #72  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:41 AM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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I'm suggesting that out of a 3.25" bbl in .45acp [like a Kimber Ultra Carry 2] or a 3" .44spl [like a Charter Arms Bulldog] a 230gr. FNFMJ (.45) or a 240gr. SWC (.44) would be just as effective as an hollow point of the same weight in those calibers if loaded to the same velocities. I say this based on the lack of expansion I've found in my own backyard type tests from factory ammo, and the lack of video evidence from other sources.

Last edited by Alabama-Ohio; 10-12-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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  #73  
Old 10-13-2019, 09:41 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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“Effective” perhaps. I will guarantee that a Gold Dot for short barreled guns will expand as designed. The debate on which is better is a different argument.
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  #74  
Old 10-13-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
I'm suggesting that out of a 3.25" bbl in .45acp [like a Kimber Ultra Carry 2] or a 3" .44spl [like a Charter Arms Bulldog] a 230gr. FNFMJ (.45) or a 240gr. SWC (.44) would be just as effective as an hollow point of the same weight in those calibers if loaded to the same velocities. I say this based on the lack of expansion I've found in my own backyard type tests from factory ammo, and the lack of video evidence from other sources.

I'll not just suggest its effective, I'll say it right out. A properly designed and constructed softpoint, or a flat point solid is just as effective if not more so, than a hollow point.



If I were designing such a soft point, I would start with a profile like a FMJ RN for feeding, then cut the point off just ahead of the point where the ogive contacts the feed ramp. The core should be dead soft lead, heat bonded in the jacket, with the nose edge of the jacket turned in just enough to protect the edge of the lead core during feeding. Use a brass jacket material like the Golden Saber uses with the angled skiving to promote expansion. As for the solid, just bring back the Hornady FMJ-FP. That bullet just flat out worked. I shot well past 100k of them over the years in combat matches, and for carry. That's all we need.
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  #75  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:30 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
I'm suggesting that out of a 3.25" bbl in .45acp [like a Kimber Ultra Carry 2] or a 3" .44spl [like a Charter Arms Bulldog] a 230gr. FNFMJ (.45) or a 240gr. SWC (.44) would be just as effective as an hollow point of the same weight in those calibers if loaded to the same velocities. I say this based on the lack of expansion I've found in my own backyard type tests from factory ammo, and the lack of video evidence from other sources.

I'll not just suggest its effective, I'll say it right out. A properly designed and constructed softpoint, or a flat point solid is just as effective if not more so, than a hollow point.



If I were designing such a soft point, I would start with a profile like a FMJ RN for feeding, then cut the point off just ahead of the point where the ogive contacts the feed ramp. The core should be dead soft lead, heat bonded in the jacket, with the nose edge of the jacket turned in just enough to protect the edge of the lead core during feeding. Use a brass jacket material like the Golden Saber uses with the angled skiving to promote expansion. As for the solid, just bring back the Hornady FMJ-FP. That bullet just flat out worked. I shot well past 100k of them over the years in combat matches, and for carry. That's all we need.
Lol, you are disproving yourself by describing first generation attempts to create JHP ammo, you do realize that nowadays we have worked out all the issues and at the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point or soft? At the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point round because the cavity will act as a cutting edge while probably still opening partially.

There is zero reason to use anything else because even if it fails to open it will still act JUST LIKE YOU PERFER THEM TO. Even though that is considered a bullet failure by today's standards since the goal posts have moved on.
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