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  #51  
Old 10-09-2016, 01:03 PM
sousana sousana is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,650
I prefer federal guard dog 165gr encapsulated hp.

The reliability of fmj coupled with the shock trauma of a hp with benefits of lessoning collateral damage to bystanders.

Optimized for home defense
• No hollow point to plug and block expansion
• Internal skived jacket with rubber front core
• Patented FMJ-like construction
• High velocity with low recoil
• Reduced probability of serious injury to bystanders in other rooms or houses
• Exceptional feed and function in semi-automatic handguns
• Works well under a wide range of velocities
• Large frontal expansion through all barriers
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  #52  
Old 05-02-2017, 06:52 AM
Kilibreaux Kilibreaux is offline
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I hate to always be the bearer of bad news, but caliber is NOT the indicator of effective stopping power...it's KINETIC ENERGY! Thus, there is zero practical difference in a factory loaded 9mm, versus .40 S&W, versus .45 ACP, all producing approximately the same kinetic energy.

Unfortunately the FBI promulgated a LIE regarding "stopping power" in defending why an entire branch office of FBI agents were mowed down by ONE MAN with a Mini-14, and the gullible shooting public has thus been saddled with completely nonsensical bull**** as opposed to actual terminal performance data.

From a medical standpoint...AS A MEDICAL PERSON WHO HAS ACTUALLY WITNESSED different persons coming in the door with dissimilar wounds by the various low-power handgun choices....9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, the fact is, neither is any more likely to result in a "one shot stop" than the other, and statistically only 11% of single strike handgun round hits results in fatality...this include the .45ACP.

Why? Because quite simply, kinetic energy is in FACT the final arbiter of terminal performance assuming all other factors are equal - which, in the case of round nose, low velocity pistol bullets, is factual.

There is a simple reason there are FEW Emergency room admissions for those shot with the .357 Magnum and above...the terminal kinetic energy of such rounds usually results in such tissue damage as to cause instant, or near instant death, thus sending the victim to the morgue.

Pistol calibers moving at less than 1,100 fps, or producing less than 400 lb-ft of kinetic energy tend to do little in the way of tissue and surrounding area destruction which is why those hit with the .45ACP are in fact no worse off than those hit by a 9mm. Wishful thinking aside, sub-400 lb-ft, subsonic speed ammo is simply not going to do much damage aside from creating a puncture wound. The user can call that a "permanent crush cavity" all they want, but at the end of the day, the FBI hog-swallowed the American public and the fact is, low-speed, pistol bullets are simply NOT going to cause damage beyond the structures they impact directly, and the result is that 9 out of 10 people hit once with the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP will survive without long-term disability.

Having worked in emergency rooms for over 20 years I can attest that VERY FEW persons hit with a rifle round ever roll through the door, and about the same number of those hit with "magnum" handgun rounds. A .357 Magnum is capable of delivering over 600 lb-ft of kinetic energy, as is the 10mm. There are FEW people coming through hospital emergency room doors wounded with such rounds or above in terms of "power."

VELOCITY makes a difference! When we move to smaller calibers traveling VERY FAST, the "formula" shifts again. The ubiquitous .22LR is actually an amazingly effective "stopper" based on actual emergency room admissions because the high-speed bullet is so light it tends to deflect easily on internal structures and does considerable damage.

Humans are actually VERY easy to bring down with a penetrating wound to the thorax. The heart lies just a few inches below the thin sternum and is EASILY damaged as is the lungs, and the vital major arteries and vessels. The thing is, if you MISS those areas in the thorax, the result is virtually nothing!

The PELVIS is an ideal target because it's the "platform" from which people dodge and weave and thus tends to remain stable as the upper torso and head moves laterally. The large blades of the pelvis tend to cause light bullets to turn in and damage vital blood vessels and arteries, aside from the FACT that shattering the pelvis results in an IMMEDIATE "stop" as the person can no longer ambulate!

The BEST place to shoot an enraged human is directly through the FACE...or head. Even the tiny .22LR will cause instant cessation of hostile action if the defender pumps 10 rounds of ANYTHING in rapid succession into the face and heat! It's not for nothing that the CIA, the Mafia, and the Mossad use pocket .22 revolvers for close-in assassination! But then, they aren't bound by the BS being spouted by the FBI.
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  #53  
Old 05-02-2017, 08:10 AM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilibreaux View Post
I hate to always be the bearer of bad news, but caliber is NOT the indicator of effective stopping power...it's KINETIC ENERGY! Thus, there is zero practical difference in a factory loaded 9mm, versus .40 S&W, versus .45 ACP, all producing approximately the same kinetic energy.

Unfortunately the FBI promulgated a LIE regarding "stopping power" in defending why an entire branch office of FBI agents were mowed down by ONE MAN with a Mini-14, and the gullible shooting public has thus been saddled with completely nonsensical bull**** as opposed to actual terminal performance data.

From a medical standpoint...AS A MEDICAL PERSON WHO HAS ACTUALLY WITNESSED different persons coming in the door with dissimilar wounds by the various low-power handgun choices....9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, the fact is, neither is any more likely to result in a "one shot stop" than the other, and statistically only 11% of single strike handgun round hits results in fatality...this include the .45ACP.

Why? Because quite simply, kinetic energy is in FACT the final arbiter of terminal performance assuming all other factors are equal - which, in the case of round nose, low velocity pistol bullets, is factual.

There is a simple reason there are FEW Emergency room admissions for those shot with the .357 Magnum and above...the terminal kinetic energy of such rounds usually results in such tissue damage as to cause instant, or near instant death, thus sending the victim to the morgue.

Pistol calibers moving at less than 1,100 fps, or producing less than 400 lb-ft of kinetic energy tend to do little in the way of tissue and surrounding area destruction which is why those hit with the .45ACP are in fact no worse off than those hit by a 9mm. Wishful thinking aside, sub-400 lb-ft, subsonic speed ammo is simply not going to do much damage aside from creating a puncture wound. The user can call that a "permanent crush cavity" all they want, but at the end of the day, the FBI hog-swallowed the American public and the fact is, low-speed, pistol bullets are simply NOT going to cause damage beyond the structures they impact directly, and the result is that 9 out of 10 people hit once with the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP will survive without long-term disability.

Having worked in emergency rooms for over 20 years I can attest that VERY FEW persons hit with a rifle round ever roll through the door, and about the same number of those hit with "magnum" handgun rounds. A .357 Magnum is capable of delivering over 600 lb-ft of kinetic energy, as is the 10mm. There are FEW people coming through hospital emergency room doors wounded with such rounds or above in terms of "power."

VELOCITY makes a difference! When we move to smaller calibers traveling VERY FAST, the "formula" shifts again. The ubiquitous .22LR is actually an amazingly effective "stopper" based on actual emergency room admissions because the high-speed bullet is so light it tends to deflect easily on internal structures and does considerable damage.

Humans are actually VERY easy to bring down with a penetrating wound to the thorax. The heart lies just a few inches below the thin sternum and is EASILY damaged as is the lungs, and the vital major arteries and vessels. The thing is, if you MISS those areas in the thorax, the result is virtually nothing!

The PELVIS is an ideal target because it's the "platform" from which people dodge and weave and thus tends to remain stable as the upper torso and head moves laterally. The large blades of the pelvis tend to cause light bullets to turn in and damage vital blood vessels and arteries, aside from the FACT that shattering the pelvis results in an IMMEDIATE "stop" as the person can no longer ambulate!

The BEST place to shoot an enraged human is directly through the FACE...or head. Even the tiny .22LR will cause instant cessation of hostile action if the defender pumps 10 rounds of ANYTHING in rapid succession into the face and heat! It's not for nothing that the CIA, the Mafia, and the Mossad use pocket .22 revolvers for close-in assassination! But then, they aren't bound by the BS being spouted by the FBI.
Thanks for the...informative post. I'm pretty sure we've all covered this and understand it pretty well by now, though.
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  #54  
Old 05-02-2017, 09:52 AM
walks with gun walks with gun is offline
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I really wish some of you people would stop confusing others with actual evidence, first hand accounts and common sense, the FBI told us the 9mm rules and we should believe that.
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  #55  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:06 AM
Average American Average American is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 84
Round nose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics108 View Post
One of the things about the video that was interesting to me was the case of the person who had received two shots to the upper thorax with hollow-point .40 S&W rounds and survived.

One of the rounds did little damage, since its wound track missed vital organs and blood vessels The other round was a potential killer, as it was heading directly for a major blood vessel but stopped about 1cm short. I believe that the surgeon said that had the bullet reached the vessel the person would have probably bled to death quickly.

Apparently, both bullets had fully expanded but the second bullet had penetrated insufficiently. My guess on this is that the second bullet had encountered a hard barrier, probably the sternum or a rib bone, fully expanded and thus had dissipated too much of its kinetic energy for the bullet to fully penetrate the chest.

This is the problem that I have with hollow-point ammo, the uncertainty of how the bullet will perform in a real life situation.
I found this very enlightening. One of the questions that occurred to me is his comment that over-penetration is not as much of an issue as we think but LACK of penetration, is. Should a heavy, round nose be considered then?
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  #56  
Old 03-01-2018, 11:33 PM
Top Cover Top Cover is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2016
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Posts: 100
I thought I would throw this out for thought. Didn't the Army find out some time ago with the Moro Rebellion that the .38 Long Colt ( a little slower than the 9mm) would not work on the Moro Juramentado warriors. So Browning came up eventually with the .45 ACP.

All I know is that the Marines I have talked about Iraq, and Afghanistan and the 5.56, all told me the wished they had had something chambered in .308/7.62X51 instead. The 5.56 in FMJ ball penetrates like crazy, but just doesn't drop and adversary like a .308 will. They told me that it took several shots to put down a Tango especially shooting through car doors and other barriers, where a .308 at similar velocities has almost twice the energy with much more "hydrostatic shock". Yes the 5.56 is a nasty round I wouldn't want to stand in front of one, however if the bullet goes straight through the target with a small hole the enemy will take a while to be incapacitated where he can't fire back.

Having said that, any cartridge that you can defend yourself with is better than not having any, and I will certainly agree with what has been said here about shot placement. At the end of the day shot placement is King! Remember the Mafia's favorite assassins pistol was chambered in .22LR, with the shot placed just behind the ear. In most cases penetration depends on placement.
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