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Old 02-13-2017, 10:16 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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Carrying empty chamber or not? That is the question.

Probably been discussed a thousand times here. But I recently read a couple posts in two other threads where people mentioned they carried empty chamber and were confident that they'd either recognize trouble coming or would have time to rack the slide and charge the weapon.
In an INSTANT situation where you are reacting to the bad guys actions milliseconds count. I just want to post two videos that may hopefully convince some to change that train of thought. Each one is only a few minutes long. Take the time to watch them.

First is from our well known blade expert Dan Inosanto. Place yourself into the unknowing officers positon and ask yourself if you see anytime at all when you would have the chance to charge your weapon.

https://youtu.be/VYl2KCdFNgo

And second is from a YouTube channel many may be familiar with called 'Active Self Protection' which fits right into this sub forum and shows multiple cases where this issue comes up.

https://youtu.be/rVPiic-ELoM

You may not have the time, the chance, the opportunity or the ability to rack the slide and charge your weapon.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:23 PM
Rick McC. Rick McC. is online now
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There's no way I'd ever carry with an empty chamber.

When bad stuff happens; it usually happens really fast.

I've been trained a bit, and nothing I've learned has ever led me to conclude that anything that adds to the time it takes to get that critical first shot off is a good thing...
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:26 PM
Raylan Givens Raylan Givens is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
There's no way I'd ever carry with an empty chamber.

When bad stuff happens; it usually happens really fast.

I've been trained a bit, and nothing I've learned has ever led me to conclude that anything that adds to the time it takes to get that critical first shot off is a good thing...
You typed my response. Thank you.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:31 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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Hi Rick
Even Spider-Man gets surprised every now and then. You've got to be ready to go in an adrenaline dumping instant. It'll be a miracle if most people even remember to do half of what's needed to survive. Let alone charge their weapon.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:00 AM
thesparkens thesparkens is offline
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The time it takes to react is seconds not milliseconds this has been proven over and over. This is why most everyone says we should have a "20' " rule in are heads when training. This is why we should learn to train at hip shots at 7'-10' you just have very little time to do anything but draw and fire. Any gun that is not loaded is called a club.

Last edited by thesparkens; 02-14-2017 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:34 AM
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Wilsonedbrown Wilsonedbrown is offline
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No way I would carry on an empty chamber. Makes no sense what so ever imo.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:11 AM
Descartian Descartian is online now
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Some of my special forces buddies carried empty chamber. Claimed it was second nature to always rack the slide before pulling the trigger, they would do it off their belt, pants or anything handy if they were limited to one hand.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:16 AM
tightloops tightloops is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylan Givens View Post
You typed my response. Thank you.
Mine too
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:45 AM
Quacker10 Quacker10 is offline
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No safety and no empty chamber.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:47 AM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
Some of my special forces buddies carried empty chamber. Claimed it was second nature to always rack the slide before pulling the trigger, they would do it off their belt, pants or anything handy if they were limited to one hand.
Not to belittle ones I don't I know. And by saying SF I certainly won't question their ability. But do you think they could have done that if another one of their buddies jumped on em and was wrestling them about?
I'm guessing their H2H skills were far above average and they'd probably be able to handle things up close without need for a gun but it does make me wonder.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:40 AM
flyingpig flyingpig is offline
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Originally Posted by Quacker10 View Post
No safety and no empty chamber.
Safety is a completely different issue. I have no problem whatsoever with a safety. If you train with a safety there is no added time involved at all. second nature.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:11 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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My CCW class instructer asked us if we were planning to carry empty or loaded. We all looked around at one another thinking this was a trick question. We all said empty but with uncertanty in our voices. He then responded by saying "in the time it takes you to rack the slide you may be dead". Nuff said for me.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:32 AM
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Although it will be faster if chambered (of course!), and a 1911 even chambered is a well thought out platform in regards to relative (it is all relative) safe operation, there are no absolutes when it comes to this. There may be instances to go against the Guru's and "this is the only way to do it if you are a "true-operator" ;-) and run un-chambered. I can think of a scenario or two when using the gun for HD under certain situations. And although in most instances, assuming the shooter is well trained, and confident, the chambered way is the best choice for most, inevitably it comes down to shooter's choice.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:00 PM
Liecha Liecha is offline
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Which ever way you decide to carry, you need to practise until you can do all your motions second nature without thinking about them and my personel opinion is that you should always carry your chosen way and not mix and match styles. If you do then you are setting yourself up for trouble.

There was a comment about using your gun as a club and for close in situations that would not be far from the truth. It can be a sap in your hand and may be more effective than using the bullet to do the work. Also important to know your carry arm as some of them (almost all) can be kept from functioning by puttting them out of battery or locking the cylinder up.

For any but the most expert of practitioners in the peak of their form, I believe that thinking you will be able to fast draw and beat the guy with the knife is a myth or happenstance. If you are far enough away to do so, then I think your method of carry is not as critical of choice.

With that, there are things you need to consider before you choose which method you are going to choose. Can you explain to the jury/judge/media/proscutor/etc. Can you explain why you felt it necessary to charge your firearm, let alone pull it out? Why did the choir boy with the halo make you feel so uncomfortable that you even considered the possibility of ending their mortal existance? What did you do to help prolong (avoid the Evolutionary consequences of your actions) the life of the attacker after the incident?

One point of carrying one down the pipe is that you did not have the additional action of charging your firearm and having to explain why you chose to do so and thus have it brought up that maybe you were indending to shoot anyways.

By the way, I carry empty with my pistols and single actions, so in my defense I would have to answer the question of why I though it necessary to charge my weapon. But if I have to draw my weapon, then I had a compelling need for its use.

Yes, I practise one handed racking and two handed racking as part of my draw and yes, it adds another motion and something else to do under a stress-ful situation. It is something I train for and I have found myself dumping a round when I have had the chamber loaded. Old habits are hard to break.

Just my thoughts.

~Liecha
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:53 PM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is online now
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Where I live, I can't get a ccw. But when I carried on Compton Airport (yes Compton as in one of the top gangland cities in the country) late at night, in my hangar and on the property, I carried condition 1 with a 45 Detonics.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:44 AM
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The Army required an empty chamber during peace-time, when I was in, can't speak for now. I was an MP and had to carry it in Condition-2.

I always carry Condition-1 when working and not working. Nothing else makes any sense.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:06 AM
nh-murph nh-murph is offline
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Carrying an empty chamber kinda sounds like cutting the reservoir tip off a condom... just a bad idea if you are serious about protection...
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:24 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Quaker10 said "no safety & no empty chamber"

I assume he means a different type of gun.

Because if he's walking around with a cocked but NOT LOCKED 1911 he's completely off his rocker.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:03 PM
Taco Picasso Taco Picasso is offline
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Then there's the noise of racking the slide. I wouldn't want to advertise that I had a gun in my hand prior to actually using it. Of course if you've already decided to shoot, it's a moot point.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:25 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Look if your concern of an accidental discharge is so great that you would consider ill-advised unchambered carry, how about this?

As a compromise, carry with one in the pipe, on half cock.

Because cocking the hammer by thumb is a lot faster & easier than the two handed motion needed to rack a slide.

Sure, It's lame. But not as lame as unchambered carry. If that's your bag just get a revolver.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:37 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Look if your concern of an accidental discharge is so great that you would consider ill-advised unchambered carry, how about this?

As a compromise, carry with one in the pipe, on half cock.

Because cocking the hammer by thumb is a lot faster & easier than the two handed motion needed to rack a slide.

Sure, It's lame. But not as lame as unchambered carry. If that's your bag just get a revolver.
Then I think you'll start another discussion on fine motor skills vs gross motor skills. The action of thumbing a hammer with a finger may be much more difficult than racking a slide with your hand in an extreme pressure situation.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:09 PM
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Good Lord what a topic!!!! If you are in a position where minimal movement and no or little sound as possible is needed racking the slide is not the best thing to do lol! (it says hello come shoot me)

If you feel the need to carry on an empty chamber just get a revolver because you are putting yourself at risk by not being prepared. There is another thread on this subject where people were put at risk because of this.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:51 PM
rangemeister rangemeister is offline
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The bottom line is that your sidearm is a machine, machines are known to fail. If you carry and rely on being able to pull the slide to the rear in a desperate situation, what happens when the round doesn't go into battery??? Because it doesn't happen at range time does not mean it won't happen in real time, especially when you are in a life and death situation.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:19 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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There are always people who believe that all criminals are so "incompetent" as to announce an assault in advance.

They haven't had much experience with crime ... and sadly they also refuse to listen to those who have had experience, including police officers.

From this week's world news, I wonder if Kim Jong-nam (the assassinated N. Korean) had enough time (hypothetically) to draw a firearm and then chamber a round?
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 02-15-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:11 PM
Big Pete10 Big Pete10 is offline
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Not. Practice both ways against a clock and see what you get under ideal conditions. At 7 Yards it takes me over a second to get off an aimed shot, close to 2 seconds, this with a full size gun in a belt holster. I haven't tested with my LC9 from a pocket ( how I usually carry). It ain't gonna be pretty. I hope that I'll have some warning if the situation ever arises. I have tried both a 642 and the LC9 from the pocket, the 642 is faster to get out due to the shape of the revolver. Time to replace the LC with a 642 I guess.
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