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  #26  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:00 PM
Magnumite Magnumite is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExpert View Post
Actually, the .203" pin only changes vertical engagement about .0015" compared to the .200" pin (radius vs diameter).

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Disagree in this case IF the present pin hole is sloppy enough to accept a .203” pin. The pin is pushed against the bottom of the slide stop pin hole. If the pin hole in the frame must be reamed, I agree with you. Again, how close to spec the frame is built.

In either case, that will be a $50 - $60 slide stop. And no benefit for 25% of the cost of an EXact Fit barrel assembly.
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Last edited by Magnumite; 02-16-2020 at 03:20 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:31 PM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Good point!

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  #28  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:36 PM
papafluff papafluff is offline
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Now we’re getting somewhere. My reason for posting here in the first place was to find out if I got what I paid for or just got a Lemmon? All I’ve read is that Dan Wesson is a cut above the rest when it comes to production guns but with no baseline for a comparison I’m still in the dark. Are the numbers I posted on my gun better than other production guns? Or did I pay extra money for the name? Like I stated in the beginning the quality of the machine work is really good. Surfaces are flat and parallel and void of all machine marks. Dimensions are almost identical from one side of frame to the other and the same with the slide. It’s almost like the clearance was built in. I’m going to read the suggested articles above and also do the test to check the lower lugs to slide stop pin. Ultimately I just want to know if the numbers on my gun match with what someone should expect from Dan Wesson
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  #29  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:15 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papafluff View Post
...
I did contact Dan Wesson and was told that NO production 1911 locks up vertically against the slide and that my slide to frame fit are in spec.
...
I suspect Dan Wesson is being honest about their spec information. As a production carry gun, and not a target gun, the slide and frame are finished parts, made to dimensions that guarantee they will assemble without any fitting required. The old 1911 ordance specs also guaranteed this freedom from fitting, and also had generous tolerances. They were also not target guns. Also, Dan Wesson's aluminum frames are likely supplied anodized, and so cannot be fitted.

At $1800, I can understand expecting a better fit. Some examples may be better than yours, or yours may typical; possibly you will get some dimensions from other examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papafluff View Post
I can completely understand how a proper barrel lockup would overcome the play in the slide but thatís not the case here. The barrel on my gun is .008 away from making contact with upper lugs
You are correct, with complete freedom of the barrel to move within the slide, you would have some vertical play.

However there is another way that the barrel fit can take up vertical slide slack. If the bushing is fitted so that the bushing fit becomes tight at linkup, this will tend to force the rear of the slide upward. As the barrel links up, it carries the rear of the slide up along with it, through the bushing. This is not the correct way to do it, but it can take up vertical slack.

And often overlooked, the magazine spring, with or without rounds present, forces the rear of the slide upward, again taking up slack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papafluff View Post
I certainly appreciate all the info and knowledge. I still question the vertical lockup. If a properly functioning 1911 locks the barrel up into the slide why would a gun like a Dan Wesson or any 1911 be produced not to? Is this something that is only found on custom built guns?? Do you buy a production 1911 and then have a barrel properly fit to get a gun to be the way it should be. I have studied the mechanics of the 1911 and itís pretty straight forward. Why is the proper vertical lockup left out?
The 1911 was designed to be assembled in large quantities from finished parts. Production guns are still produced that way, with the exception of certain features. Modern machining allows closer tolerances, and so drop in barrels with more closely fit barrel hoods can be produced for example.

A hard or close vertical lockup was not part of the original design. As a spec, the actual upper lug engagement is a derivied dimension, based on all the specs of the relavent parts. The specs guranteed that a barrel would not bind when assembled, but would also have adequate upper lug engagement and linkdown clearance.

Your Valkyrie probably resembles original 1911 specs more than the target model 1911's.

Before target model 1911's were being produced, ordance spec 1911's were being modified with welded up barrel hoods, and welded up upper lug recesses and lower lugs. They were then hard or close fitted. The frame rails might also be peened for a closer fit to the slide. Now, for custom target guns, barrel upper and lower lugs and bushing are oversize and fitted to the slide and frame. The frame rails are also oversize and fitted to the slide.

When building a target gun from a commercial 1911, an oversize barrel and bushing are often used. The goal is optimum accuracy. Carry guns are not typically modified for better accuracy. Optimum reliability is more important.

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  #30  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:49 PM
papafluff papafluff is offline
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I can’t thank you all enough for sharing your knowledge. At least now I have a much better understanding of what to expect from a production 1911 vs custom build. I go out into the world of 1911’s with a better understanding thanks to all of you who took the time to educate me. This is an awesome forum full of awesome people 👍
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  #31  
Old 02-21-2020, 05:49 AM
EvolutionArmory EvolutionArmory is offline
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The truth of the matter is this. You have a really nice off the shelf production pistol that will shoot well and is nicely finished that has a lot more features than most at a slightly higher price point.

Dan Wesson guns are one hell of a bargain for what you get but make no mistake, it’s still a production pistol with mostly drop in tolerances. There’s no major hand fitting of any crucial components.

This post is what happens when people in the machine trade over obsess about things and break out the tools instead of just enjoying a nice pistol. I mean that in a good spirited way, not a dig.

It’s a nice gun at a reasonable price point. If it was any nicer it would be a grand more. There’s a reason why a gunsmith fit barrel costs 4-500 bucks installed and frame fitting costs a couple hundred. It’s labor intensive.
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  #32  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:36 AM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
The truth of the matter is this. You have a really nice off the shelf production pistol that will shoot well and is nicely finished that has a lot more features than most at a slightly higher price point.

Dan Wesson guns are one hell of a bargain for what you get but make no mistake, itís still a production pistol with mostly drop in tolerances. Thereís no major hand fitting of any crucial components.

This post is what happens when people in the machine trade over obsess about things and break out the tools instead of just enjoying a nice pistol. I mean that in a good spirited way, not a dig.

Itís a nice gun at a reasonable price point. If it was any nicer it would be a grand more. Thereís a reason why a gunsmith fit barrel costs 4-500 bucks installed and frame fitting costs a couple hundred. Itís labor intensive.
^^^ Perfectly stated.
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  #33  
Old 02-21-2020, 01:40 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Maybe when I'm a bit older I'll get into bullseye type 1911 shooting. Until then I'm not too concerned about very tight fit, I'm more concerned with reliability and durability.

I doubt I'll ever have the issue of being more accurate than any gun I own. I'm the big variable, not the guns.
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  #34  
Old 02-21-2020, 05:53 PM
Bowdrie Bowdrie is offline
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Have found this thread quite interesting,, specifically regarding the drawing and measurements that the OP did, and questions that he had about these measurements as concerning a DW pistol.
As I have recently acquired an early DW in ANIB condition, I decided to make the same measurements on mine.
I did not bother with the barrel lugs/slide recesses, only the OD of the muzzle/ID of the bushing, and the frame/slide interface surfaces.
So, using dial calipers, a dial indicator, and some simple set-ups, this is what I came-up with:
1, Lateral clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
2, Lateral clearance between slide rail and frame, .0015
3, Vertical clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
4, Vertical clearance between slide rail and frame, .002
5, OD of muzzle, .580
6, ID of bushing, .581
The breech face shows no sign of contact with the hood, but with the gun in battery I cannot insert a .0015 feeler gage between them, nor on either side of the hood ends.
The DW does not feel "tight", but it is slick and smooth.
I've never handled a LB/EB/Wilson, so I have no comparison(s) to make,,,.
The DW works fine,, perhaps as an EDC it might want to be a bit "looser",, I don't know??
It does like lots of oil,,.
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  #35  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:02 PM
Totally Tactical Totally Tactical is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
The truth of the matter is this. You have a really nice off the shelf production pistol that will shoot well and is nicely finished that has a lot more features than most at a slightly higher price point.

Dan Wesson guns are one hell of a bargain for what you get but make no mistake, itís still a production pistol with mostly drop in tolerances. Thereís no major hand fitting of any crucial components.

This post is what happens when people in the machine trade over obsess about things and break out the tools instead of just enjoying a nice pistol. I mean that in a good spirited way, not a dig.

Itís a nice gun at a reasonable price point. If it was any nicer it would be a grand more. Thereís a reason why a gunsmith fit barrel costs 4-500 bucks installed and frame fitting costs a couple hundred. Itís labor intensive.
Well said.
I have some very expensive 1911's that are wonderfully accurate.
I have a couple of Colts that had some minor tuning. Barrel Bushings, trigger work. These are just as accurate.
The Colts can give the high end guns a real run for the money.

Point of the matter, get up tommorrow. Lube up your Dan Wesson , grab your shooting bag and some ammo, and go have some fun at the range!
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  #36  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:14 AM
papafluff papafluff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
Have found this thread quite interesting,, specifically regarding the drawing and measurements that the OP did, and questions that he had about these measurements as concerning a DW pistol.
As I have recently acquired an early DW in ANIB condition, I decided to make the same measurements on mine.
I did not bother with the barrel lugs/slide recesses, only the OD of the muzzle/ID of the bushing, and the frame/slide interface surfaces.
So, using dial calipers, a dial indicator, and some simple set-ups, this is what I came-up with:
1, Lateral clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
2, Lateral clearance between slide rail and frame, .0015
3, Vertical clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
4, Vertical clearance between slide rail and frame, .002
5, OD of muzzle, .580
6, ID of bushing, .581
The breech face shows no sign of contact with the hood, but with the gun in battery I cannot insert a .0015 feeler gage between them, nor on either side of the hood ends.
The DW does not feel "tight", but it is slick and smooth.
I've never handled a LB/EB/Wilson, so I have no comparison(s) to make,,,.
The DW works fine,, perhaps as an EDC it might want to be a bit "looser",, I don't know??
It does like lots of oil,,.

Finally a comparison
If my gun had those numbers I wouldn’t even be here but it doesn’t. My gun is double and triple those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to actually provide me with the information I was looking for. It’s obvious you actually read and understood my post
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  #37  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:41 AM
papafluff papafluff is offline
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Finally a comparison
If my gun had those numbers I wouldn’t even be here but it doesn’t. My gun is double and triple those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to actually provide me with the information I was looking for. It’s obvious you actually read and understood my post[/QUOTE]


This post actually belongs over in the DW forum where I posted DW actual numbers. In this post I was looking to educate myself as to what is actually considered “tight fit” after reading the suggested material that has been provided here I now have a much better understanding of what a tight fit 1911 is. After establishing what a tight fit 1911 is (which mine is not) I proceeded to post in the DW forum looking to compare the numbers on my gun to other DW’s
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  #38  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:06 AM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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I just got my first potentially hard fit gun. Emphasis on potential. It is a 99% 2013 SA Professional. The slide opens with a firm push, using furniture to get it out of lockup is not required. This condition costs me macho points but makes the gun more practical.
The lockup pattern shown on the slide stop and lower barrel feet is very good, I am pleased.
I am working on a couple small new gun issues but the important stuff looks good at this time. I will need new sights as it shoots 3-4" high at 25 yards. That is more than going from 6'o'clock to POA-POI.
Note my eyes are still healing from cataract surgery gone wrong, I will take my wife shooting with the PRO and see what her patterns look like before ordering new sights.
On the positive the new XS Big Dot Night Sights on my Mossberg Thunder Ranch is great. This gun has a door breacher muzzle which obscures the front sight. Remember to take the shotgun out and pattern it before serious usu.
Apologies for the novel.
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  #39  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:04 PM
papafluff papafluff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
Have found this thread quite interesting,, specifically regarding the drawing and measurements that the OP did, and questions that he had about these measurements as concerning a DW pistol.
As I have recently acquired an early DW in ANIB condition, I decided to make the same measurements on mine.
I did not bother with the barrel lugs/slide recesses, only the OD of the muzzle/ID of the bushing, and the frame/slide interface surfaces.
So, using dial calipers, a dial indicator, and some simple set-ups, this is what I came-up with:
1, Lateral clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
2, Lateral clearance between slide rail and frame, .0015
3, Vertical clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
4, Vertical clearance between slide rail and frame, .002
5, OD of muzzle, .580
6, ID of bushing, .581
The breech face shows no sign of contact with the hood, but with the gun in battery I cannot insert a .0015 feeler gage between them, nor on either side of the hood ends.
The DW does not feel "tight", but it is slick and smooth.
I've never handled a LB/EB/Wilson, so I have no comparison(s) to make,,,.
The DW works fine,, perhaps as an EDC it might want to be a bit "looser",, I don't know??
It does like lots of oil,,.

Was this an aluminum framed Dan Wesson or steel?
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