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  #26  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:17 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
I don’t care for either one on any pistol filling a self-defense role.
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Originally Posted by woody b View Post
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
I don’t care for either one on any pistol filling a self-defense role.
I'm with you on that. I'm not a fan of safety's on handguns.
It's literally not for everyone, some band shapes simply can't 110% of the time attain full, secure grip on the gun and be in a place to use the thumb rest and also disengage the grip safety.

I have no issue and when intentionally trying a bad draw can't avoid the grip safety enough to not have it work. I can't find a way to pull the trigger that it doesn't automatically work. If you have a hand shape that is good for a 1911 it's not something that even occurs to you, however I have seen people who can't try and force it to work and I advise them to get another gun that works with their hands.

You should never have to fight a gun to get it to work, it should be effortless and help you get your hits without any thought. That's really the only reason I suffer a ancient design that costs 1000s for an example that is as reliable as common newer designs. Because quite simply nothing else comes remotely close in performance, $4000 entry fee be dammed.
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:20 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
^^This^^

is a training issue.

I like both, but the thumb safety is useable as it is selectable, while the grip safety is automatically on or off.
If its solely a training issue, then "trained professionals" by the thousands, probably 10s of thousands, have conclusively demonstrated that they were NOT "trained"....
They likely really are not. Skilled is relative, most I have seen and shot with flat out suck to the point it's literally funny that these guys are supposedly the best in LE for my area.
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:21 PM
earlwb earlwb is offline
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I do tend to prefer the grip safety. I don't have to practice releasing a safety, it does it as soon as I grip the gun. But if you hands don't fit the gun well, it can be a problem though. Using a thumb safety works, but you have to practice with it until it become second nature and no thinking about it is involved.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:24 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Ah....safeties. My view on this topic has evolved. Personally, I think they get in the way.

Case in point.....I lost count of the number of times I have seen a shooter in league F up because they forgot to disengage it. Happens in SD too.

On the other hand, I can see their merit.

Skilled shooters who really understand how to use a firearm are really the only okra that know how to use them, but don’t need them 🙂

And I also think it depends where the gun is used and how carried and if it’s SA or not.

Personally, I am a fan of guns with hammers and decockers....safety or not...or wheel guns when sitting next to my skin.
Hilariously accurate, the two other shooters I've shot with who are within 5% of me score and time wise are like that. We all use totally different guns (HK LEM, Glock, 1911) yet when we swap weapons we never EVER get hung up with the other persons guns. Since we know how to use all of them, it's just an excuse for lack of skill and practice. Each of us has at least 75k rounds and literally 10000s of draws with our main gun platform and are versed in all the major types, manual safeties or lack thereof are not the issue. Underskilled users are.
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  #30  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:27 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by SAWBONES View Post
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
I wouldn't put too much faith in the 1911 grip safety - it only blocks the trigger and will prevent you from firing the gun with a less than perfect grip on many 1911s. Mine are all pinned down.
Absolutely agree.

The grip safety is probably more often a liability than a genuine safety benefit.

It's not much of a safety to begin with, since it merely blocks the trigger bar, and "sensitized" examples will often let the trigger "slip".

Much more important, though, is the fact that an imperfect or "panic" grip may well not release the grip safety, making the gun impossible to fire in a genuine emergency situation without readjusting one's grip.

The Novak "Answer" solid 1911 backstrap that was offered several years ago was a good solution to the GS problem, but was unfortunately very overpriced (IMO) and was subsequently discontinued.

My grip safeties are all "sensitized" or pinned.

The thumb safety OTOH is a gem; well thought out, blocks the sear, reliable, easy both to actuate and release.
Advice, at a private outdoor range or someone's house have a buddy knock you down at the start of a buzzer and you have 2.5 seconds to draw and fire on target at 3 yards. It will quickly show anyone if their gun is a problem in terms of a sub optimal draw and not being able to disengage stuff. It's why I switched from a normal safety to a wide lever, to make it easier for my left hand to use and my right to always get to even if I have a really bad stance/grip.
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  #31  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
If its solely a training issue, then "trained professionals" by the thousands, probably 10s of thousands, have conclusively demonstrated that they were NOT "trained"....
Ah, please name these "trained professionals".
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  #32  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:54 PM
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I am so used to flipping off a thumb safety that I don’t think about what I’m doing anymore. I sweep off a thumb safety on litteraly any gun I shoot whether it has one or not. Even on revolvers. It doesn’t bother a thing on any gun that I could ever think of
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  #33  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:35 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Ah, please name these "trained professionals".
I don't have their names. One only has to search for "Glock leg" to find stories of LEOs having anDs. Several years ago, an NYPD report published that somelike 60% of the rounds fired by its officers on the streets of the city were "unintended " discharges. The video, also several years ago, of the DEA agent bragging about how professional he was, in a classroom, up until the instant he shot himself stands out in my mind....
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2020, 10:57 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
I don’t care for either one on any pistol filling a self-defense role.
^^This^^

is a training issue.
No.

There are plausible self-defense scenarios where either one could put you at a disadvantage. And I concede that you could argue the same for a gun with neither (see, e.g., Glock leg). I’ve merely stated my preference, given my personal assessment of the risks and benefits of different configurations.

This account of an actual self-defense shooting shows how both the grip and thumb safeties could potentially be liabilities in ways having little to nothing to do with training ((1) GSW to hand possibly impairing grip safety actuation and (2) sound of thumb safety disengagement alerting armed assailant to the presence of a firearm): https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-988015/?page=1.

And then there’s the argument that safeties are additional moving parts and thus additional potential failure points, however remote the odds.
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  #35  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:00 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I don't have their names. One only has to search for "Glock leg" to find stories of LEOs having anDs. Several years ago, an NYPD report published that somelike 60% of the rounds fired by its officers on the streets of the city were "unintended " discharges. The video, also several years ago, of the DEA agent bragging about how professional he was, in a classroom, up until the instant he shot himself stands out in my mind....
None of those people are trained, 1911 professionals.
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
No.

There are plausible self-defense scenarios where either one could put you at a disadvantage. And I concede that you could argue the same for a gun with neither (see, e.g., Glock leg). Iíve merely stated my preference, given my personal assessment of the risks and benefits of different configurations.

This account of an actual self-defense shooting shows how both the grip and thumb safeties could potentially be liabilities in ways having little to nothing to do with training ((1) GSW to hand possibly impairing grip safety actuation and (2) sound of thumb safety disengagement alerting armed assailant to the presence of a firearm): https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-988015/?page=1.

And then thereís the argument that safeties are additional moving parts and thus additional potential failure points, however remote the odds.
Yes, itís easy to hypothesize theoretical problems with anything. In reality, neither safety poses a problem for someone properly trained in the gunís use.
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:08 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Originally Posted by jtq View Post
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
I don’t care for either one on any pistol filling a self-defense role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody b View Post
I'm with you on that. I'm not a fan of safety's on handguns.
Participating on this forum, you guys must feel like the guy that hates pasta and is now dining at an Italian restaurant.
LOL, not exactly. I love 1911s. I just don’t rely on them in any SD capacity. They’re either collectibles or range toys for me — nothing else.

I’m also obsessed with Swiss P210s, to take another example among many, but between the extremely awkward safety, the heel mag release (on almost all versions) and non-drop-free mags, and the low magazine capacity, I would never assign any of mine to a self-defense role either. I don’t really mind any of those features on collectibles and range guns, though.
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  #38  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:13 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
No.

There are plausible self-defense scenarios where either one could put you at a disadvantage. And I concede that you could argue the same for a gun with neither (see, e.g., Glock leg). I’ve merely stated my preference, given my personal assessment of the risks and benefits of different configurations.

This account of an actual self-defense shooting shows how both the grip and thumb safeties could potentially be liabilities in ways having little to nothing to do with training ((1) GSW to hand possibly impairing grip safety actuation and (2) sound of thumb safety disengagement alerting armed assailant to the presence of a firearm): https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-988015/?page=1.

And then there’s the argument that safeties are additional moving parts and thus additional potential failure points, however remote the odds.
Yes, it’s easy to hypothesize theoretical problems with anything. In reality, neither safety poses a problem for someone properly trained in the gun’s use.
The account of the shooting I linked **is reality.** And there it’s easy to see where both safeties were disadvantages in ways not readily amenable to training solutions.
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  #39  
Old 02-09-2020, 05:51 AM
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In a nutshell:

Thumb safety: I give it a 10 in value.

Grip Safety: a 5 at best. Pros and cons, limited additional "safety" capability.
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  #40  
Old 02-09-2020, 05:58 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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I can tell you this.....safeties are very confusing to new shooters. Most want them...then struggle to use them.
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  #41  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:34 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
None of those people are trained, 1911 professionals.
I said nothing about them being 1911 "professionals"- whatever exactly that means....
According to their organizations, their govering agencies, the laws of their States, and themselves, they were "trained" in the use of firearms. They carried firearms routinely as part of their duties, they carry "professionally "....
Thats what I meant when I suggested that you could find thousands of "trained professionals ' who've managed to fail in this area....
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  #42  
Old 02-09-2020, 07:30 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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I can tell you this.....safeties are very confusing to new shooters. Most want them...then struggle to use them.
Which is a Training issue. People properly trained in a piece of equipment have no problem using it.
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  #43  
Old 02-09-2020, 07:33 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I said nothing about them being 1911 "professionals"- whatever exactly that means....
According to their organizations, their govering agencies, the laws of their States, and themselves, they were "trained" in the use of firearms. They carried firearms routinely as part of their duties, they carry "professionally "....
Thats what I meant when I suggested that you could find thousands of "trained professionals ' who've managed to fail in this area....
I appreciate you helping me prove my point.
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  #44  
Old 02-09-2020, 08:14 AM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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I am not going to express a preference for type of safety but I will express an opinion. I believe it matters less what type of safety you use whether it be grip safety, thumb safety, or the striker fired trigger dingus than that you train with it & train to always disengage it when you draw. I remember when I first started carrying. I had a Ruger P-series DA/SA pistol with a slide mounted safety. I didn't like the slide mounted safety. The down for safe, up for fire seemed awkward to me. I read someone online that posted that they dealt with that by leaving the safety off the holstered pistol. So I went with that. One day while I was out deer hunting I looked at my pistol & realized the safety I had left off was on. So I am of the opinion that even if you leave it off when you holster you should still train to disengage the safety when you draw. For whatever it's worth though I do own a 1911 style pistol neither of the guns I usually carry have a thumb safety or a grip safety. They are both striker fired. I carry them in quality holsters that cover the trigger guard & I don't take them out & mess with them when carrying. When I go practice from the holster I am cautious when putting them back in the holster with a round chambered. Any of the systems can work if you learn it & learn to use it properly.
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  #45  
Old 02-09-2020, 08:25 AM
Marshall2011 Marshall2011 is offline
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I like both equally.

I have an XDs with a grip safety and a G2c with a thumb safety. My tow 1911s naturally have both. But I am okay with guns that don't have a safety.

Try carrying an empty and cocked Glock around the house for a few days. You will see that it doesn't fire. That should help build confidence.
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  #46  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:12 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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I would respectfully add that none of my carry firearms require anything more than my pulling the trigger for them to fire the first round. Any manual safety is left in the 'fire' position. My rationale is that in an emergency I'll be occupied enough with staying alive.

Vietnam Vet but nowadays just a normal run-of-the-mill tired geezer with NO illusions of mall-ninja status or black-ops operator dreams - lol
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  #47  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:49 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
Ah, please name these "trained professionals".
I don't have their names. One only has to search for "Glock leg" to find stories of LEOs having anDs. Several years ago, an NYPD report published that somelike 60% of the rounds fired by its officers on the streets of the city were "unintended " discharges. The video, also several years ago, of the DEA agent bragging about how professional he was, in a classroom, up until the instant he shot himself stands out in my mind....
I saw an off duty cop in New York proper (Manhattan) literally walking around carrying her duty belt in her hand. Not at all surprised after seeing them in person that the stats are what they are. Most are morons and underskilled.
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  #48  
Old 02-09-2020, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
I saw an off duty cop in New York proper (Manhattan) literally walking around carrying her duty belt in her hand. Not at all surprised after seeing them in person that the stats are what they are. Most are morons and underskilled.
^^This^^

is a consequence of:

1. Affirmative Action
2. The failed theory that Inclusivity and Diversity trumps everything else
3. Limited training budget and time
4. Apathy

No one working in Police or the Military is going to get the firearms training they need (except for SWAT and Special Forces) unless they get adequate training on their own ticket and practice on a regular basis on their own--which is what I do weekly.
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Don't trust Cavery Grips/American Gripz. He WILL rip you off.
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The 9mm is a SD cartridge fit only for women and Europeans--Me
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  #49  
Old 02-09-2020, 01:56 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
^^This^^

is a consequence of:

1. Affirmative Action
2. The failed theory that Inclusivity and Diversity trumps everything else
3. Limited training budget and time
4. Apathy

No one working in Police or the Military is going to get the firearms training they need (except for SWAT and Special Forces) unless they get adequate training on their own ticket and practice on a regular basis on their own--which is what I do weekly.
I spent 4-5 days a month at the range supervising "Quals"! On average few LEO's practiced between "Quals"!

I got "spanked" a few times for running "USPSA" style drills. I wanted to introduce the minions to a alternate form of training that was fun. I was told that it used up too much ammo and could generate an "injury"!

Our SWAT guys trained weekly and I participated whenever I was at the range.

It's too bad "Admin" doesn't get it nor do the rank and file!

Now that I'm retired I still do "quals" for CA POST retirees in WA as a courtesy.

I also do training for an Army unit of MP Investigators.

Lots of fun!
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  #50  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:34 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
Which is a Training issue. People properly trained in a piece of equipment have no problem using it.
Define "training". Define "properly trained". Just for fun, define "professional"....
All are very ambiguous terms. My example highlights a population that has some education in the effective and safe use of firearms, and carry them daily for a living. Industry standard (such as they are) and State laws accredit their training....
And within that population, one can find thousands of examples of sub par performance, where "training " failed....
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