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  #76  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:03 AM
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Another view of the causes you can listen when you're having your coffee or brushing your teeth - easy listening ;-). See lessons #6 and 7 which goes into the root cause of the CW (6) and the secession (7).

It points out the "slavery" debate was going on since the formation of our country and woven into the politics right up to the war. It was "integral" in the on-going political debate, not ancillary...It also discusses how entrenched slavery was not only in the economic system of the south, but the hierarchical social system of the south, of which most white southerners didn't share the benefits. The south leadership was "all-in" on slavery.

They also make reference to this guy, John Calhoun, a big outspoken politician and supporter of slavery. He rejected many of the precepts of the founders and some of what he said was in line with socialism putting government-given rights (based on a government defined hierarchy) above God-given rights (men are members of groups, not individuals, in essence)...Interesting listening.

Although the Founder's "punted" in many respects over the slavery issue, they were all cognizant that it would have to be reconciled in the not too distant future in order for our Deceleration of Independence and Constitution to have any true and lasting meaning.

All the above points to the notion that the CV was a result of an ideological (which includes economic factors) clash between what the founder's envisioned and what the Slave-Based Political/Ideological system of the Old South wanted.

Whether you concur or not, its still a good listen, enjoy!

https://online.hillsdale.edu/courses/constitution-101
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  #77  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:06 AM
glider glider is offline
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A plantation owners wealth was in his slaves, not his land. It became illegal to import slaves into this country in 1801 or 2, 50 years before the war. There was only 1 slave trader ever prosecuted and that was because he wouldn't pay the graft all traders were charged. This was in N.Y.. Lincoln didn't believe that black people were equal and did believe in segregation and said so in a speech. This is well documented. The south did not want to fire on Ft Sumter, Lincoln forced the issue because he needed an excuse to invade the south. The southern states, any of the states, did have the right to succeed from the union, that's why Lincoln needed the south to fire on Ft Sumter. The Civil War was without question fought over succession, that is just simple history. Our government attacking it's citizens to free slaves makes a better story but it doesn't happen to be correct.
  #78  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:20 AM
glider glider is offline
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Back to Sherman, he was a professor at what is now LSU before the war. When it became apparent that the south would succeed he moved to St Louis and went to work for the railroad. After a skirmish in St Louis he was recruited into the union army by Grant who also lived outside of St Louis at the time. He had an intimate knowledge of the south and the character of southerners. He knew they wouldn't quit unless totally devastated. Therefore, that's what he did.
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  #79  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:26 AM
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Interesting commentary here. I have no dog in this discussion (except as a student of history), as my ancestors were canon fodder for the Habsburg’s at the time. However, for those that are interested, I recommend the following books:
A Government of Our Own; The Making of the Confederacy - by William C. Davis
Re-electing Lincoln; The Battle for the 1864 Presidency - by John C. Waugh
Team of Rivals; The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln - by Doris Kearney Goodwin

The first two books cover much of what’s been discussed here and provides insight to the political realities of the times. Both good reads.
The third book is (in my opinion) over rated but still interesting.
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  #80  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:00 AM
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is online now
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Both W.T. Sherman and U.S. Grant are distant cousins of mine, on their respective mother's side.

That said, I found it interesting that the CSA Constitution expressly forbade the importation of slaves. That must have been a carrot thrown to England, which had already abolished the slave trade in 1807, and the Royal Navy was actively enforcing this ban.
  #81  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:34 AM
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Snip... Lincoln didn't believe that black people were equal and did believe in segregation and said so in a speech. This is well documented. ...Snip
Lincoln's attitude was a little more nuanced than that. The problem Lincoln was struggling with was how to integrate 4 million freed slaves with no property, no education, largely unskilled, and utterly without means, into a society that generally was not willing to integrate them. This is the inequality he was referring to. He had a model for this. At the time, America was still struggling to integrate the 1.5 million poor Irish who had immigrated during the potato famine. Other than the color of their skin, the Irish were much as the freed slaves would have been. Lincoln was an advocate for sending the freed slaves elsewhere to start their own country, or to be assimilated into a country closer to their socio-economic standing. Not for any particularly racist agenda of his, but as a practical matter in his mind. He did not think that the freed slaves would be able to integrate with white society of the day and that they, and the country as a whole, would be better off if they had their own country with a level slate economically, socially and politically. No matter what you think of this, you have to remember that it was a different time and applying modern morays to Lincoln's train of thought is apples to oranges. Lincoln thought logically for the time and wasn't burdened with the hypersensitivy to perceived racism we have today. It was just a different era.
  #82  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:50 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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Well, I for one am sticking to my thoughts about Waffle Houses. One of their table condiments SHOULD be Imodium.

Anyone who is under the misconception that the Civil War ended, has never been a DamYankee living in the South. (BTDT) This thread ably proves that out.
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  #83  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:34 PM
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The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down

I enjoy this song especially when Joan B. sings it, brings back the 60's (the 1860's, and 1960's :-)), and I enjoy that so much CW "imagery" can be manifested in 3-4 mins of song. Excellent writing.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE
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  #84  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:43 PM
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You just have to learn to cultivate the speech pattern.

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Well, I for one am sticking to my thoughts about Waffle Houses. One of their table condiments SHOULD be Imodium.

Anyone who is under the misconception that the Civil War ended, has never been a DamYankee living in the South. (BTDT) This thread ably proves that out.
As a long time carpetbagger from Washington DC. I lived in New Orleans for over two decades. Now when I go back East everyone that does not know me thinks that I am from Texas.

Waffle house aside. New Orleans has the best food in the world hands down.
  #85  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by saread View Post
Lincoln's attitude was a little more nuanced than that. The problem Lincoln was struggling with was how to integrate 4 million freed slaves with no property, no education, largely unskilled, and utterly without means, into a society that generally was not willing to integrate them. This is the inequality he was referring to. He had a model for this. At the time, America was still struggling to integrate the 1.5 million poor Irish who had immigrated during the potato famine. Other than the color of their skin, the Irish were much as the freed slaves would have been. Lincoln was an advocate for sending the freed slaves elsewhere to start their own country, or to be assimilated into a country closer to their socio-economic standing. Not for any particularly racist agenda of his, but as a practical matter in his mind. He did not think that the freed slaves would be able to integrate with white society of the day and that they, and the country as a whole, would be better off if they had their own country with a level slate economically, socially and politically. No matter what you think of this, you have to remember that it was a different time and applying modern morays to Lincoln's train of thought is apples to oranges. Lincoln thought logically for the time and wasn't burdened with the hypersensitivy to perceived racism we have today. It was just a different era.
My understanding (I can't remember where I got this) was that Lincoln's intent was to send the freed slaves back to Africa, their continent of origin. However, part of that was establishing a country for them, which is where Liberia came from.
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  #86  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:51 PM
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Texas' Sam Houston's prophetic words
on the conflict between North and South:

Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
  #87  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:16 PM
saread saread is offline
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My understanding (I can't remember where I got this) was that Lincoln's intent was to send the freed slaves back to Africa, their continent of origin. However, part of that was establishing a country for them, which is where Liberia came from.
Liberia declared independence in 1847. Although it began about 1822. The idea was much the same - a better home for free North American Africans. I think even by 1860 it was pretty clear Liberia was a failed experiment. Unfortunately, the colonists brought along a colonial attitude. That didn't set well with the indigenous population. Nor has it to this day. Lincoln, and other Whigs, were certainly advocates of this effort, but I'm not sure that he exactly had Liberia in mind late in the war. I think at the end he was resigned to the fact that immigration wasn't going to happen and the United States was going to have to adapt and assimilate the freed slaves.

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  #88  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:37 PM
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When one is fighting against an enemy that is both evil and foreign, and when only total victory will decide the outcome, total war is not only justifiable but necessary if one is going to win and minimize the damage.

However, when one is fighting "brother against brother" as the saying goes, to reunite what had been one nation, the kind of warfare Sherman brought does not serve reconciliation.

A civil war is when two factions strive to control a country (which is what is happening in America right now - just mostly nonviolently). What we call the Civil War was actually a war of secession, where one party just wants to go their separate way. The Union invaded the South and, it can be argued, destroyed the nation in order to save it. When an army invades a new nation, pillaging, burning, destroying along the way, murdering and raping civilians, that is not reconciliation. It is conquering and subjugation.

In the South, Sherman is seen as evil because of what he did to his erstwhile countrymen.
  #89  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:42 PM
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Malice to none speech - Lincoln

Near the end of the CW - March 1865. He was an amazing orator...In the end, he kept the nation together and lead an entire people to freedom. But of course, sadly, he paid the ultimate price shortly after, a very reflection of some of his words below.

"Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
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  #90  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:53 PM
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Sherman is a war criminal no better than Pol Pot ........... killed 1000's of civilians black & white / free or slave - Hope the POS is slizzing like bacon in the Lake of Fire
Check out the Devil's Punch Bowl near Natchez Mississippi...... CSA not responsible for Yankee - run death camp
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  #91  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:00 PM
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Again, I bring up Fitzgerald, Ga., an example
of the maturity and sensibility of the people
who actually fought in the Civil War.

And again, I mention Col. Spencer and his
cavalry unit which was the personal body
guard to Sherman and do you know who
comprised that regiment?
  #92  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:08 PM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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Whether the war was fought over slavery or not it has settled us with a monstrous federal government with all the bureaucratic tyranny that goes with it. Government pushes its way into every aspect of our lives whether we want it there or not. Maybe that is an unforeseen consequence of the outcome of the war but it is a consequence nonetheless.
Many posters have stated where they are from. I was born & raised in Georgia though my paternal grandfather hoboed in here from Oklahoma when he was a young man & my mother was from Texas. My maternal grandmother was descended from the first mayor of Augusta, Georgia & a relative of hers was a Confederate officer that was shot off his horse during the Battle of Atlanta. Of course we didn't know that until my aunt started researching the family genealogy. To be honest my views were formed more from observation, reading & critical thinking than anything my family said. Also ones opinion might be effected by seeing historical markers on every corner around where they grew up.
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:14 PM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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Well, I for one am sticking to my thoughts about Waffle Houses. One of their table condiments SHOULD be Imodium.

Anyone who is under the misconception that the Civil War ended, has never been a DamYankee living in the South. (BTDT) This thread ably proves that out.
Randy I have lived in the South (metro Atlanta actually) all my life. We have people from all over the country here & for the most part folks get along. About the only Yankees that are given a really hard time are the arrogant ones that think they are smarter than everyone else. Most of the others are treated decently other than a little ribbing when they are first encountered. FWIW most of us down here pick on each other too.
  #94  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:28 PM
UncleEd UncleEd is offline
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Check out the Devil's Punch Bowl near Natchez Mississippi...... CSA not responsible for Yankee - run death camp
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Wasn't this during the Johnson administration, a Southern
sympathizing Democrat, who pardoned most of the
Southern gentry who then could run the South under
their Black Code?

A lot of guilt for everyone at the time, I think.
  #95  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:50 PM
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Lincoln, Sherman and Grant were all incompetent fools and second hand war criminals. Lincoln was lucky he was shot-it saved his 'legacy'... This thread is a perfect example of history being (re) written by the victors. If you want the BEST general on either side check out George Thomas.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:32 PM
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That said, I found it interesting that the CSA Constitution expressly forbade the importation of slaves. That must have been a carrot thrown to England, which had already abolished the slave trade in 1807, and the Royal Navy was actively enforcing this ban.
As you say the importation of slaves into the U.S. and the slave trade had been banned for some time. (This did not stop the breeding of slaves for sales in the Caribbean for trade to Latin America, for example.)

The ban on the importation of slaves into the CSA was not a carrot tossed to England though. It was rather a protectionist measure against the importation of slaves into the CSA by any of the individual states from Caribbean or elsewhere. This was contrary to the Constitution of the CSA which allowed the states to have their own trade. But it allowed for the slave trade to continue and grow inside the CSA. The constitution of the CSA allows for the sale of slaves between CSA states or Canada. It protected slave breeding and the sale of slaves in the CSA that was the point.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; 02-12-2020 at 10:06 PM.
  #97  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:03 PM
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Sherman's march to the sea broke the back of the Confederacy. It was designed to be a weapon of terror and demoralize the population. To show that the CSA was doomed and too weak to protect itself. It generated fear and a lasting hatred. It was brutal, bloody and cruel.

It was not a mass destruction or murder of the population. It did devastate the countryside. Mass rapes were not designed to happen.

As the Army marched into Savannah 10,000 escaped slaves followed Sherman's Army. Another 7,000 reached Fayetteville, N.C. Along the way Sherman's foragers were helped by escaped slaves who pointed out the homes of the wealthy and where they may have hidden food, weapons and supplies. For the slaves it was a great day of liberation and joy. They actively joined in the fight as they could. (See "The March to the Sea and Beyond" by Glatthaar and "Embattled Rebel Jefferson Davis and the Confederate Civil War")

Sherman did not want the slaves in his army. Others felt differently. When the slaves left the plantations and warehouses crops went to waste, animals were not feed, etc. This meant possible hunger or starvation for areas of the south. Confederate soldiers in droves deserted to come home to work the land and protect what was left. This was a decisive blow. Demoralizing to the population.

It broke the back of the Confederacy. it was a critical part of the second American Revolution.

tipoc
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
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Sherman's march to the sea broke the back of the Confederacy. It was designed to be a weapon of terror and demoralize the population.
tipoc
I had this thought a few days back, and didn't voice it, but it occurs to me that no matter how you feel about him, Sherman was essentially the atomic bomb of the Civil War. His campaign was something entirely new, devastating and demoralizing, and hastened the end of the war.
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  #99  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:08 PM
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I am not so sure about that LE.

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I had this thought a few days back, and didn't voice it, but it occurs to me that no matter how you feel about him, Sherman was essentially the atomic bomb of the Civil War. His campaign was something entirely new, devastating and demoralizing, and hastened the end of the war.
L.
I think that scorched earth tactics preceded the good general by at least a few centuries.
  #100  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:29 AM
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I have no skin in the game, other than I am glad (I would think any Christian would be glad in this regard) that Slavery was finally ended by that war, as my genetic pool was still in Europe back then, so I can look at this objectively.

The vast majority of southerners did not own slaves - someone posted that slave ownership was low single digit.

And the vast majority of southerners did not participate in the benefits of the Slave-Driven-Economy the way the elitist slave owners did.

The place was run by a bunch of Democrat-elites who believed in an evil ideology (slavery) and who unfortunately manipulated honorable young southerners (95+% of whom didn't own slaves, and didn't benefit from the slave economy the way the plantation owners did) to support an evil effort of of insurrection. Manipulation of young men to fight unjust wars was not a new thing at that time (or anytime), of course. The order was given to fire on Fort Sumter, and hence the South drew first blood. At that point Lincoln had no choice but to respond with force-of-arms. If he did not, it would be somewhat analogous to Roosevelt not going to arms after Pearl Harbor was attacked (which would have amounted to dereliction of duty).

The Democrat-Elite of the OLD South led these men on a Fool's Errand (a war they couldn't win) which unfortunately 620,000 young men of both sides paid the price...

The "positives" which came from this: 1) The evil ideology of (institutionalized) state-sanctioned slavery came to an abrupt end in this country (forms do still exist today in this country independent of "color"); 2) The Union came out of this much stronger; 3) The US military took a quantum leap forward in "modern" battle experience and learnings.

That isn't re-writing history, that is history.

I do agree though if (guess it depends who one asks) Sherman was guilty of war crimes he should have paid the price.
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