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  #51  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:51 AM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
If Lincoln had not been killed a mere six days after Appomattox, he might have been. Unfortunately the only officer tried and convicted of war crimes was the Swiss educated doctor that was the commanding officer at Andersonville.

I wonder how many of these social justice warriors know who Nathan Bedford Forrest was?
I went to Andersonville a few years ago. It's a very well run National Park and National Cemetary, run by the National Park Service. They have a very interesting driving tour, where they give you a CD or flash drive (depending on the media your vehicle has) that takes you through the site from your car. My wife and I found it very interesting and informational.

We then went into the town of Andersonville for lunch. It's basically a wide spot in the road of about 100 or so people. The little cafe was decent, what you would expect from a tiny town. They are definitely embracing the CSA there. There's a large memorial in the center of town to the prison commander that was tried and hung as a war criminal. They consider him a martyr.

It's worth a stop if you're in the area.
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  #52  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:29 AM
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Perhaps a perspective and lesson could be
gleaned from the history of Fitzgerald, GA.


The people of the 1890s seem so much more
mature than some of our folks these days.

Peace to all.
  #53  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:59 AM
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Sherman was a domestic terrorist.

Robert E Lee was the best general of that war. He won battles where he was outnumbered every time. I was born and raised in the south and to this day don’t like anything from the north.
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  #54  
Old 02-11-2020, 11:13 AM
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Wow, getting intense...As I posted above, I knew "wounds" still existed, but didn't think so significantly...I have no skin in the game, my genetic pool was in the South in 1860, but the south of a European country :-). So I hope both sides of the Mason-Dixon don't ask me personally for reparations ;-)...As far as that European country, been their twice, once in the Navy and decades later on Holiday. Nice place, good food, but regardless of where my gene-pool came from I don't identify with them one-iota as far as my national identity. I could have been visiting people on Mars as far as I am concerned. Born, raised, American, son of a WW2 veteran, and I served in the USN - sworn to the Constitution, that is my heritage. Period!
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-11-2020 at 11:20 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-11-2020, 11:47 AM
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The states that seceded from the union.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
Only one question in this whole discussion:

Do you wish the country had broken up or not?

If the answer is "yes," then would
individual states within the CSA have
the right to claim total sovereignty
and secede from the CSA?
They did for the most part claim sovereignty.
  #56  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:05 PM
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Whether it belongs in a gun forum or not (probably not, technically) it is interesting.

tipoc
  #57  
Old 02-11-2020, 03:40 PM
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For reading try..."The march to the Sea and Beyond" by Joseph T. Glatthaar.

It pulls no punches. Lot's of primary sources, letters, speeches, newspapers of the time.

tipoc
  #58  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:00 PM
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Slavery was a terrible thing, no question, however the Civil War was not fought over slavery. It was an issue but one that didn't have the support of the north at the beginning of the war. It is worth noting that the slaves were not freed until after the war was over.
  #59  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:26 PM
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I make no claim I am a Civil War expert, but in reality "Slavery" was the root cause of the civil war because the South had an economy based on slavery as "fuel". The South was able to see that they were slowly becoming politically outnumbered (by forces against slavery) and once Lincoln got elected they knew political pressure would increase against their way of life. Eventually the South opened up on Fort Sumter to start the shooting war. Lincoln had no choice but to go to arms.

Yes, maintaining the Union was the most important thing to Lincoln, but the fact remains, if the South's economy was not slaved based (and so different than the North's economy), the political rift would never have happened and shots would never have been fired. Without slavery and the slave-based economy (the root cause) in the South there is no war.

States Rights and other things which were also being argued at the time might be thought as secondary causes, but not the root causes (IMO).
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  #60  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:29 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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They did for the most part claim sovereignty.
Theres a reason for that, and it goes back to the earliest days of this nation, with the Federalists and anti-Federalist positions- and before, with the Declaration of Independence.
Note that we live in the United States of America, not the United "Provinces" of America. the word "State" in both the 18th century world and in modern diplomacy and international relations is synonymous with "Nation", and endowed with all rights, powers, and privileges that a sovereign Nation/State enjoys. A State is "supposed to be" wholey autonomous. A Province is a subservient political division of a Nation/State.
In 19th century America, people considered themselves citizens of their States, and only "residents" of the US. Robert E Lee was offered the CiC of the Union Army. He declined, not out of belief in a cause or a political position, but out of what he percieved to be DUTY, to his State of Virginia... prior to the war, people would say "the United States are"- plural entities. Only after the war was "are" replaced by "is", singular....

For good or ill, those days are gone.... I'm not sure that the US would have become what it is today under the doctrine of strict State sovereignty, and I don't know how well those principles would work in the 21st century world....
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  #61  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:43 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I make no claim I am a Civil War expert, but in reality "Slavery" was the root cause of the civil war because the South had an economy based on slavery as "fuel". The South was able to see that they were slowly becoming politically outnumbered (by forces against slavery) and once Lincoln got elected they knew political pressure would increase against their way of life. Eventually the South opened up on Fort Sumter to start the shooting war. Lincoln had no choice but to go to arms.

Yes, maintaining the Union was the most important thing to Lincoln, but the fact remains, if the South's economy was not slaved based (and so different than the North's economy), the political rift would never have happened and shots would never have been fired. Without slavery and the slave-based economy in the South there is no war.
This is simply not true. A significant part of the Northern economy (textiles) was tied directly to Southern cotton. North and South were very interdependent in this economic endevor. The North controled Congress, and when the South tried to export cotton to England and France (from whom they could make more money, AND receive better quality finished goods, at a similar price point) large export tariffs on cotten were imposed. That was the triggering event.
There's only one mentioned of slavery in the records of the discussion and debate of Southern succession- the North's refusal to abided by the Fugitive Slave Act and facilitate returns. Every other element that led to secession was economic.
Had slavery never existed in the US, and the economic issues been the same, the South still would have seceded.
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  #62  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
This is simply not true. A significant part of the Northern economy (textiles) was tied directly to Southern cotton. North and South were very interdependent in this economic endevor. The North controled Congress, and when the South tried to export cotton to England and France (from whom they could make more money, AND receive better quality finished goods, at a similar price point) large export tariffs on cotten were imposed. That was the triggering event.
There's only one mentioned of slavery in the records of the discussion and debate of Southern succession- the North's refusal to abided by the Fugitive Slave Act and facilitate returns. Every other element that led to secession was economic.
Had slavery never existed in the US, and the economic issues been the same, the South still would have seceded.
Of course there was economic independence, nobody said there wasn't.

Your argument false flat, because the economies were much different, unless you want to re-write history. The economy of the south was dependent on slavery. Take that away, slavery, and the economy has to be re-engineered which also results in a big shift in power. South wanted no part of that. The argument over slavery was the root cause (because it impacted their slave-based-economy so significantly). The others mention were secondary causes. You got to learn to connect some dots, like POTUS does today, they likely imposed tariffs to affect change in the south. Slave based economy, yes indeed, economics!
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  #63  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:27 PM
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Moreover, a trigger event is not the root cause of a war.

It would be like saying the Gulf of Ton-kin incident was the cause of the war with Vietnam.

Wars are usually fought over economics or ideology or a mixture of both. The Civil war was no different, it was the economics-of-slavery (an ideology) which caused the Civil War.
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  #64  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:43 PM
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Those changes were already coming, through the natural process of innovation. The industrial age had just begun, the need for large- and expensive- labour was just starting to die. There was no legitimate need to "force" those changes a decade or so early, at the cost of 620,000 lives. If the intent of the economic sanctions was as you say, then the North is guilty of a far more vile evil- deliberately creating conditions premeditated to end in war.
The historical facts don't support that- that it was a deliberate attempt to force social change through war. It was purely dollars and cents. The North needed cotton to fuel its industry, and inexpensive, locally produced goods. Those Northern industrialist mill owners were not abolitionists- their wealth depened on cheap cotton. When the South found a better market for their resources, it was cut off through taxes and tarrifs.
They used economic measures to prohibit the South from using its resources in a manner that best suited its population.
Its not an "argument", its a simple, history reality... when one plays "connect the dots" through 800 points, truth becomes diluted.
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  #65  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Those changes were already coming, through the natural process of innovation. The industrial age had just begun, the need for large- and expensive- labour was just starting to die. There was no legitimate need to "force" those changes a decade or so early, at the cost of 620,000 lives. If the intent of the economic sanctions was as you say, then the North is guilty of a far more vile evil- deliberately creating conditions premeditated to end in war.
The historical facts don't support that- that it was a deliberate attempt to force social change through war. It was purely dollars and cents. The North needed cotton to fuel its industry, and inexpensive, locally produced goods. Those Northern industrialist mill owners were not abolitionists- their wealth depened on cheap cotton. When the South found a better market for their resources, it was cut off through taxes and tarrifs.
They used economic measures to prohibit the South from using its resources in a manner that best suited its population.
Its not an "argument", its a simple, history reality... when one plays "connect the dots" through 800 points, truth becomes diluted.
Your still looking at only one small slice of the Big Picture Leading up to the war. It was a clash of ideologies, rooted in the notion of slavery and the economic system it created. And the war was foreshadowed decades before it happens by politicians of the day for this reason (because it was a struggle of ideologies)...The tariffs might have been a trigger, but are not the root cause.

Your welcome to your beliefs, I'll keep mine, we can end it friendly this time :-)
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-11-2020 at 07:03 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:03 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Fair enough... and a sincere hats off to you for not letting this spiral out of control. You're passionate about your beliefs and positions, as am I. Good on you for reigning this in.
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  #67  
Old 02-11-2020, 08:12 PM
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It's worthwhile to read the Constitution of the CSA and to look at it's differences with the Constitution of the USA. You can see in the link I have here both Constitutions and the similarities and differences.

The institution of slavery and it's defense runs through the Constitution of the CSA as a red thread. Multiple times it's discussed. A central prop of the Constitution and the Confederacy.

The debate over tariffs and protectionism also runs through the CSA constitution. Where northern states looked for tariffs on foreign products, especially machinery and clothing, in order to promote the growth of industry in the U.S. and protect it from a flood of cheaper British imports, The 6 southern slave states were for free markets to sell their cotton and ag products to England and internationally. The pressure from England to maintain the U.S. as another Ireland was significant. So much so that England aided the south during the war.

Clauses in the CSA constitution also hemmed the government in from developing railroads, waterways, federal projects, etc. The sovereignty of the states hampered the CSA's ability to wage war.

A good deal of it's stand on sovereignty had to do with protecting the slave breeding industry in the slave states.

Look for yourselves:

https://jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

tipoc
  #68  
Old 02-11-2020, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The issue of slavery created a "moral" cause, regardless of what the actual factors of success were....
As for some of the absurd "statistics" being tossed about, if one thinks that 1/3 rd of the entier Southern population were slaveowners, one probably gets their "facts" on the 2A from presented by Biden, Clinton,, Bloomberg, Hogg et al....
According to the 1860 census, and basic arithmetic, less than 1.5% of the Southern population were were slaveholders. Even if we double that %, consideration a husband/ wife family unit as "owners", however academically ignorant and dishonest doing so is, we have 3% of "families".... rather a far cry from 30%+. However, truth doesn't feed the race baiting guilt machine....
The reason for such low ratios? Same reason for the war- money. Slaves were EXPENSE to aquire and maintain. In 1860, a healthy, male field slave in his mid 20s was worth about $800 dollars. For some perspective, that was more than the median home value at the time. Only something the very wealthy of the time could afford... they represented a huge investment, and a massive amount of wealth. There's a reason an entire industry developed around recovering runaways- the one mention of slavery in Southern secession, the North interfering with such recoveries.

Truth in history isn't taught in the public education system, and requires some study and a holistic approach if one desires to understand it.
Spot on. In my genealogy studies, I have one gggg grandfather. He was an 'innkeeper' (tavern owner). He died in 1816, I have copies of his estate documents. His entire estate was valued at $500. He owned one slave, a young woman. She was valued at $400. That simple document was quite an eye-opener.

The sad fact is that slavery is still being practiced today in certain parts of the world. It was certainly on it's way out in America, Civil War or not, and the fact that it was forever inextricably tied to the Civil War was more a matter of the politics of the war, rather than the root cause.
L.
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Last edited by L.E.; 02-11-2020 at 08:36 PM.
  #69  
Old 02-11-2020, 08:19 PM
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It's also worth looking at the "Cornerstone Speech". This was a speech delivered by the Vice President of the CSA Alexander Hamilton Stephens March 21, 1861. You can also read the whole speech which ties the issues together and elaborates on the CSA Constitution. Click below for teh whole speech.


Quote:
But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution, African slavery as it exists amongst us – the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”1

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.
https://iowaculture.gov/history/educ...eech-alexander

Last edited by tipoc; 02-11-2020 at 08:22 PM.
  #70  
Old 02-11-2020, 08:30 PM
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While the dog thread wasn't gun related it wasn't filled with yankee propaganda pretending that a bloodthirsty murderer was a hero. Once again,

THIS THREAD ISN'T GUN RELATED. WHY IS IT STILL HERE????
Grow up, act like something more than a 5 year-old, and join the conversation, woody. Or continue to kid yourself with your super-size font.

This is really pretty simple. Sherman was a hero. To the North. And he was anything but that, to many (most?), from the South. And as I've realized from a lot of members in the thread, there's a lot of area between that black and white. Please contribute something meaningful, or if not, stop reading the thread.
L.

And another thing, you keep referring to Sherman as a 'bloodthirsty murderer'. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he may have been responsible for less loss of life than any commanding officer on either side of the war. His campaign wasn't about killing people. It was about destruction of everything in his path, most notably supply lines (rail lines) and the sources of the supplies themselves. Unpleasant? Horrific? Certainly. Effective? More-so than anyone before him. You want to talk about someone responsible for shear numbers of dead? That would be Grant.
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Last edited by L.E.; 02-11-2020 at 09:15 PM.
  #71  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:09 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
It's worthwhile to read the Constitution of the CSA and to look at it's differences with the Constitution of the USA. You can see in the link I have here both Constitutions and the similarities and differences.

The institution of slavery and it's defense runs through the Constitution of the CSA as a red thread. Multiple times it's discussed. A central prop of the Constitution and the Confederacy.

The debate over tariffs and protectionism also runs through the CSA constitution. Where northern states looked for tariffs on foreign products, especially machinery and clothing, in order to promote the growth of industry in the U.S. and protect it from a flood of cheaper British imports, The 6 southern slave states were for free markets to sell their cotton and ag products to England and internationally. The pressure from England to maintain the U.S. as another Ireland was significant. So much so that England aided the south during the war.

Clauses in the CSA constitution also hemmed the government in from developing railroads, waterways, federal projects, etc. The sovereignty of the states hampered the CSA's ability to wage war.

A good deal of it's stand on sovereignty had to do with protecting the slave breeding industry in the slave states.

Look for yourselves:

https://jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

tipoc
This is a good read. Taken holistically, there's a great deal of positive changes- a great deal of limitation on Federal power, fiscal responsibility, term limits, uniform standards for voting....as well as some changes that hampered development....
I disagree with your last statement, that the stance on sovereignty was to bolster the domestic slave industry. While it does strengthen the rights of slaveholders, there's few major changes.The only significant changes between the US and CSA Constitutions was the latter's codifying the right to slave ownership, and incorporating the Fugitive Slave Act (a US Federal law) into the Constitution ... beyond that, the changes on this subject are relatively insignificant.
To bring the subject back to Sherman, he (as was the vast majority of the Northern privileged class) anything but an abolitionist. He refused to allow blacks to serve in his army. His treatment of suddenly masterless slaves along his march was abysmal.
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  #72  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:22 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by L.E. View Post
Spot on. In my genealogy studies, I have one gggg grandfather. He was an 'innkeeper' (tavern owner). He died in 1816, I have copies of his estate documents. His entire estate was valued at $500. He owned one slave, a young woman. She was valued at $400. That simple document was quite an eye-opener.

The sad fact is that slavery is still being practiced today in certain parts of the world. It was certainly on it's way out in America, Civil War or not, and the fact that it was forever inextricably tied to the Civil War was more a matter of the politics of the war, rather than the root cause.
L.
The amount of wealth invested in slaves was astronomical, though your kinsman was an extreme example. If you look at estates in the 1840s throu 1864, for those few that did own slaves, their worth is right around 50% of the value of the average estate.

In my professional life, when practicing rather than teaching my trade, I deal heavily in UW, coercion, disruptive, and subversion (as wellas the development and supporting of) governments. A great deal of what I do focuses on the human dynamic, and cultural changes. The one thing I've learned in the last 30 years is that societal, cultural changes comes only one of 2 ways:
- Evolutionary, over time, a minimal of a generation, often 2 or 3.
Or
- Revolutionary, rapidly, suddenly. Revolutions are bloody, and always have unforeseen secondary and tircerary effects.

The former is preferred, and allows for greater stability. The latter is used out of necessity, or when that instability is desired.
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  #73  
Old 02-11-2020, 10:44 PM
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After my recent ramble, I did some looking around, and found this. As per the balance of the thread, I'm open to the viewpoint of others.
L.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/a...scorched-earth
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  #74  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:54 AM
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With all of this talk of slavery.

I happened upon some information that really kind of floored me in that regard. I purchased a house in New Orleans in 1999 that was built in the 1830s. Additionally it had stayed in the same family for all of that time. The original gas lights were still in it as well as remaining functional.

At any rate It was sold as part of the estate of a man that was an old descendant of that family that had never married. Quite the crank I was to find out for a number of reasons. at any rate he did have one redeeming quality insofar as that he was apparently a bibliophile. Some very interesting books were found by myself in that house. His heirs being distant cousins that had no apparent interest in them. Far too many of these books had been gotten into by mice. With an additional toll taken by the leaking roof. However I was able to salvage a number of them. One book that I was able to recover was a complete collection of all of the information amassed by the national census of 1850.

I was amazed by the number of slaves listed, separately of course. This number far exceeded the number of white people. And while I cannot recall the actual numbers, it was in several multiples of the number of white people. Additionally I was a bit surprised to find that they also listed several thousand freed men, former slaves no doubt.

So clearly good, bad, or otherwise. Slavery at least was quite an industry if you could call it that. At least in Louisiana it was. Not too surprising if you consider that this largely took place in a pre industrial society.
  #75  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
It's worthwhile to read the Constitution of the CSA and to look at it's differences with the Constitution of the USA. You can see in the link I have here both Constitutions and the similarities and differences.

The institution of slavery and it's defense runs through the Constitution of the CSA as a red thread. Multiple times it's discussed. A central prop of the Constitution and the Confederacy.

The debate over tariffs and protectionism also runs through the CSA constitution. Where northern states looked for tariffs on foreign products, especially machinery and clothing, in order to promote the growth of industry in the U.S. and protect it from a flood of cheaper British imports, The 6 southern slave states were for free markets to sell their cotton and ag products to England and internationally. The pressure from England to maintain the U.S. as another Ireland was significant. So much so that England aided the south during the war.

Clauses in the CSA constitution also hemmed the government in from developing railroads, waterways, federal projects, etc. The sovereignty of the states hampered the CSA's ability to wage war.

A good deal of it's stand on sovereignty had to do with protecting the slave breeding industry in the slave states.

Look for yourselves:

https://jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

tipoc
This is what I was saying above in a more general sense. Politics (or ideology if you will) and economics are two sides of the same coin. They go hand in hand, doesn't matter if it is communism, socialism, fascism, or a Slave-Driven economy.

That is a great article (a keeper) the way they have the two Constitutions juxtaposed right next to each other.

And I really like the conclusions on the bottom, they are in line with my beliefs in identifying the root cause (albeit there were several "lesser " causes) of the War.

This thread has indeed turned out to be one of the most interesting in a long time, no matter what one's personal beliefs are, a lot of good information was presented by all sides (I certainly learned new stuff).
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