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  #1  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:35 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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Finger placement and trigger pull

I have a Sig 1911 We The People and a Kimber Custom II both showing rub marks on the right side of the trigger. The Sig was my first pistol ever with almost 2000 rnds. The Kimber was recently purchased and has 200 rnds through it. I noticed the marks on the Sig beginning to show somewhere around the 200 shot count. At first I thought it was the way I was gripping and squeezing the trigger. Tried a few changes in both, but to no avail. I'm okay with my shot location at close self defense ranges but not so much at 15 to 25 yards. Shots still frequently go left. Any suggestions?
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:46 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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Shorter trigger.

Have you tried dry firing at a blank wall while observing nothing but sight alignment? That can disclose problems with trigger pull. Known as the "wall drill".

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  #3  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:47 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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If you have a dot and a blank wall you can see amazing things. Regardless, good info below.

https://youtu.be/cXWoJ2arPuI

https://youtu.be/-drGiQVM8GI

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/...r-pistol-grip/

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Pist...20Training.pdf

https://www.bullseyepistol.com/zins.htm
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Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 12-15-2019 at 08:50 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:48 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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Yes I do a lot of dry firing. In the beginning I could see a slight movement to the left, now this only happens maybe once or twice in maybe 20.
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2019, 09:07 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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Good vids and interesting reads jayhawk. I'll be digging more into these. I'm sure it's me that is obviously doing something. These two pistols are very different, grips, grip safety designs, thumb safeties but I'm finding the same marks showing up in the same place on both triggers. Thanks
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:26 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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A better fit trigger should scuff less though I agree technique is the common denominator.
In fact this is a good argument for a loose trigger as a training aid.
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2019, 07:30 AM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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I'm assuming that I should be looking to perhaps a longer trigger? With the adjustable break and reset? They are both adjustable at this time.
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  #8  
Old 12-16-2019, 10:30 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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The wear marks could indicate a trigger that's too short, allowing too much finger on the trigger. But if shots are going left, that can indicate that you are not getting enough finger on the trigger, i.e., the trigger is too long.

Are you able to see if the triggers are free to rub on the left side also?

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  #9  
Old 12-16-2019, 10:42 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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My finger is almost to the first knuckle. Which in theory should force muzzle and bullets right. There is a little slop left and right on the triggers. Not sure there is enough to cause that much of rub marks. Just thought being two different guns, different grips and different feel in the hand, I must be doing something I'm not aware of.
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2019, 11:00 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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I watched the above videos and read the above links today at work today. Came home after work and tried to adjust my grip more in this fashion. I think it did help with the precision of my shots, but with the little time I had before darkness set in, and thinking perhaps too much I'm not sure how much it helped with the trigger rubbing. Was only able to get 50 rounds through both guns. I admit I do tend to think way too much and get in my head way too much. I'm my worse critic.
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  #11  
Old 12-17-2019, 09:26 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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The videos show a system that works for him primarily bullseye match. But he in other material does acknowledge this is Bullseye technique, so don't get too carried away with the comments.
Practical in the field use.
I found the old school grip alingnment with wrist and elbow that he disparages is the best grip for me.
Why, because I have a known solid base and alignment . I can point shoot or one hand or modify modern technique. Also when shooting magnum revolvers I do not have the revolver in the web of the hand canted as in the video because I do not want to bend back my hand on recoil. Holding not aligned with wrist and elbow , canted as in the video is a big reason why magnum revolvers get a reputation for being unpleasant.
Also my stance in the field use, one hand defensive so my support hand is free, so not a bullseye or isoclese stance. It is similar to the modern technique but my arm is more in line.
Because I know the alignment of the barrel inline with hand wrist and elbow I know intuativly how to point so I get the benefit of no need to shoot thousands of rounds in practice to develop muscle memory or what ever term many videos use.
Because any handgun I shoot is aligned naturally with my hand wrist and elbow I get more consistent results.
Also trigger placement I put either more or less trigger finger on it so the press is directly rearward. Zins in other material mentions not to use pad of the finger.
Also with these principles I can shoot mouse guns 1911s revolvers with good results.
My tip , get a consistent alignment and try different amount of finger trigger placement so you get a straight back trigger press.

Everyone is different so you need to try out some variation.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 12-17-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2019, 12:36 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLS1911 View Post
My finger is almost to the first knuckle. Which in theory should force muzzle and bullets right. There is a little slop left and right on the triggers. Not sure there is enough to cause that much of rub marks. Just thought being two different guns, different grips and different feel in the hand, I must be doing something I'm not aware of.
The IP joint (I believe) is where I like my finger placement. I’ve not had great results with the pad except for super light European triggers and air pistol. If you are pulling straight and to the rear you shouldn’t have a problem pulling shots. Don’t sweat rub marks, sweat grip and proper placement. If the trigger is too short swap it out or get wider grips. CMM makes spacers which can be an inexpensive way to fine tune your setup outside a new trigger.

The benefit to one hand shooting is that it amplifies any error in method and easier to see where deficiencies reside. Make sure you’re calling each shot. If you can’t predict where your impacts are there are probably other fundamental issues. Having taught at clinics and matches this seems to get folks on path quickest. Adapt/adjust from there once you know what right looks/feels like. Most of us have never been taught formally how to produce a great shot and don’t know what the process, image or feel is to achieve or replicate one.

I also linked the USMC Pistol Workbook. Great resource to use for marksmanship.

US Army Marksmanship Unit Pistol Training Guide

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_...rain_Guide.pdf

CMM Grip Spacers

http://www.cm-machine.com/1911-Stock-Spacers_c_11.html



Marine Corps Pistol Workbook

http://www.ssppl.org/PDFs/USMCPistolTeamWorkbook.pdf
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Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 12-17-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2019, 01:59 PM
JLS1911 JLS1911 is online now
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Thank you both for the valuable information. I've been working with an older gentleman, like myself, that has many many more years experience than I have. I've only been shooting pistols since this past June, anyway, the two most glaring things have been my flintching and my self criticism. What has been acceptable to him has not been to me. So maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill. The rubbing of the trigger is trying to tell me something, I just have to figure out exactly what. I'm going to try use whatever information I can get and use what I find works.
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  #14  
Old 12-18-2019, 06:39 PM
wv109323 wv109323 is offline
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The trigger must be pulled straight to the rear. Your grip, finger position and trigger length all affect the "direction" of the trigger pull.
What part of the trigger finger you press the trigger with is first. Brian Zins ,multiple national champion, uses the first joint to pull the trigger. If you rub your thumb along your trigger finger you will find a "hard spot" at the first joint. He uses this part to depress the trigger because it has less cushion.
You then need to adjust your grip position and trigger length to achieve a straight to the rear pull. And keep them consistent.
Wear on the trigger is probably an indication of side pressure that needs to be corrected.
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2019, 05:20 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Trigger placement on a 191 style gun.....

I would not judge the rub marks on the sides of the trigger as any indication of not pulling the trigger straight to the rear..... When a person breaks the shot, the recoil is usually enough to cause the trigger finger on the trigger to move the trigger in any direction where the trigger pad is not a very close fit.....

Where and how a person places their finger on the trigger is subjective. I know that Brian Zins is a world class Bullseye National Champion, but his hand size and finger length may allow him to use the first joint of his trigger finger for optimal results....

I shot Bullseye for 12 years and was shooting low Master scores when I switched to action pistol shooting.....I have always preferred short triggers, and use the pad of my trigger finger.....even though I have medium/large hands. When I begin to press the trigger, the side of my trigger finger is not touching the frame, so I do not "push" the frame to the left when pressing on the trigger pad. This works very well for me, for shooting "strong hand only" like in Bullseye matches, and even when using the two thumbs forward, modern two hand grip used in action pistol shooting.

A person needs to experiment to find the best trigger finger placement for their hand size and finger length for the type of gun used, and the style of trigger they prefer, to give optimal results when shooting..... However, using a good firm grip, and learning how to shoot without a flinch or "heeling' the gun is also very important to be able to hit where you aim.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-20-2019 at 05:28 AM.
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  #16  
Old 12-20-2019, 05:36 AM
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Good advise by RW' and other's above...

Most 1911's come standard with a long trigger, but looking at a medium or short is an option.

Me personally, med size hands, with a long trigger I have to be more "perfect" about my grip, with a medium trigger more flexibility. For bullsye makes no difference, I can shoot both guns just as accurately (2" group freehand at 25 yards) but for fast shooting from the draw, it just helps me to get more perfect shots right down the center of any target (I call them spine shots) with a medium. I can do it with a long at speed also, it just takes more perfection in technique.
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:35 PM
Plaidad Plaidad is offline
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I'm a "pad presser", too. If I try to use the finger joint, I pull shots left. It took me a while to get into the pad press habit, but it works for me. Costs nothing to try.
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