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  #26  
Old 11-08-2019, 12:04 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lppd4 View Post
Its difficult for an old IPSC/USPSA shooter to try to shoot IDPA it's to restrictive, tactical order, tac reloads, the subjective 50% behind cover rule etc. When you are use to blowing and going
Is it?
I find it's easy to go to IDPA state matches and roast them
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2019, 02:11 PM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Is it?
I find it's easy to go to IDPA state matches and roast them
You do have a good point although I have never shot anything higher than a regional IDPA match. when I can remember the rules I usually fair very well at an IDPA match. I am a A class USPSA guy that cant hold that standard these days.
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2019, 02:15 PM
bdavis385 bdavis385 is offline
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It's a game. It suffers the fate of all games. Until the target shoot back rather than give you points, it will remain a game. Enjoy the game.
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2019, 09:42 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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It seems that a lot of people here think the outlaw matches are the best. My experience is that most of them just use 99% of USPSA rules but just aren't affiliated. Some will be all steel targets instead of a mix. There's a very small number that try to be more combat oriented but most are just USPSA "light". I shoot mostly USPSA and used to shoot more IDPA but rarely now.
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  #30  
Old 11-09-2019, 03:21 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Outlaw matches are terrible.
Nothing worse than "Bob's Outlaw Tactical Shoot"
Nothing.
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  #31  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:51 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Outlaw matches are terrible.
Nothing worse than "Bob's Outlaw Tactical Shoot"
Nothing.
Rule books are a good thing. I like to know what to expect before I leave the house.

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  #32  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:16 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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I'm not as experienced with IPSC and IDPA as most of you, but I suspect you're seeing the same problems as with cowboy action shooting. What started out as a realistic competitive exercise devolved into a game where trick equipment and revised rules allowing all manner of "cheats" took all the fun out of it for many people. Wyatt Earp never ran a slicked-up Winchester '73 with a short-stroke lever and .38 Special loads with the power of spit wads, shooting targets 15 feet away like he's Rambo. When I last shot a local indoor IPSC match 20 years ago we were all shooting proper defense/combat handguns, at least until near the end of the league season when some local big-time gamers heard about it and showed up with their comped .38 Super race guns and took all the top spots each night. Several of the guys quit in disgust and didn't finish the season, but I stayed and ended up winning the overall match simply because I had so many points earned prior to the gamers showing up at the last minute. And all with a bone-stock single-stack 1911.

Every time they create a new league or class somebody takes the rules and bends them in order to gain a competitive edge, and people end up having to create a new category or entire new league just to appeal to those of us who are less interested in a real-life video game than we are honing our defensive skills or doing historical reenactments.
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2019, 12:27 AM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Outlaw matches are terrible.
Nothing worse than "Bob's Outlaw Tactical Shoot"
Nothing.
Not so. Not by a long-shot. There are some very good ones out there - ones that challenge shooters more in keeping with the original intent of the games. Either you're not giving them a fair shake or you're not looking at the right ones. I, for one, am glad that we have outlaw matches as an option. They help to bring in folks disappointed by the change in direction of the old standbys.
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  #34  
Old 11-10-2019, 02:04 AM
markm markm is offline
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Well like many have said it's a game and there are rules, not hard to follow although contrary to what someone would do in real life.
The thing I don't like about IDPA was when they started PCC, no concealment, no mag limits, optics and they clean up on poor smucks that thought the P stood for Pistol.
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  #35  
Old 11-10-2019, 10:18 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I was disappointed in the PCC fad, too; whether in IDPA or USPSA.
It has not taken over to the extent I expected, though, yesterday 8/45.
Same number of CCPs, which is more in the original stated intent of IDPA.
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  #36  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:02 AM
low drag low drag is offline
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I agree with most on the thread. IDPA has too many subjective rules and also penalizes aggressive shooting. I know I come around corners fast, I know I engage targets as I'm coming around. I almost always get a ding from the RO. (who is a competitor of mine of course)

I have decided to just go shoot on my own, shooting various drills etc. Have had great times shooting with like minded shooters and a shot timer to use on stages we set up. It takes a lot less time to do this and much smack talking ensures.

I used to shoot with some guys that were pretty good. We'd even go to the trouble of loading dummy rounds in each other's mags for drills etc. We used simple IDPA type scoring and kept a few 'pat' drills to run periodically to see if we are improving.

I moved to the Raleigh/Durham area last year and haven't developed a circle of shooting buddies yet to do the things I used to do. For my time it's the best way to get some good training and have a good time.
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  #37  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:01 PM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.
I'm under the impression that causing procedural errors is the goal of stage design...
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  #38  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:47 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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IDPA and stage designs......

IMHO, poor stage designs are the weak link in IDPA. Imagine a new competitor taking a two hour round trip to shoot a local IDPA match, only to be disqualified for a safety issue caused by a stage design that could have been better!

I don't understand why IDPA does not have a website that keeps "good" and successful stage designs in a database, so all clubs around the world have an option to use and download them. I know USPSA has classifier stage designs that can be used and downloaded.....

Since some stage designers do a much better job than others, it might be a good idea to have access to good stage designs available from the IDPA headquarters..... IMHO, it is time to make improvements so IDPA clubs will be able to get/download good stage designs, rather than inventing them each time they have a local match... I have heard IDPA is not growing with new memberships in the U.S., but I can not substantiate that claim.
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  #39  
Old 11-11-2019, 03:03 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
...USPSA shed the 'P' a long, long time ago - as in: there's hardly anything 'Practical' that remains in USPSA...
What is not practical about a game that requires safe gun handling and speed plus accuracy -- not one or the other but BOTH -- to not get disqualified and get a good score?
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  #40  
Old 11-11-2019, 03:06 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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The best shooters I observe -- the ones who win the matches I shoot -- do not cheat. They don't use trick equipment. They go out there and put their superior skills to use and beat everyone else by simply being more proficient.

If you tell yourself you're getting beaten by someone because they're cheating or they have trick equipment that you don't, you're giving yourself excuses.
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  #41  
Old 11-11-2019, 03:11 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
When I last shot a local indoor IPSC match 20 years ago we were all shooting proper defense/combat handguns, at least until near the end of the league season when some local big-time gamers heard about it and showed up with their comped .38 Super race guns and took all the top spots each night. Several of the guys quit in disgust and didn't finish the season, but I stayed and ended up winning the overall match simply because I had so many points earned prior to the gamers showing up at the last minute. And all with a bone-stock single-stack 1911.

Every time they create a new league or class somebody takes the rules and bends them in order to gain a competitive edge, and people end up having to create a new category or entire new league just to appeal to those of us who are less interested in a real-life video game than we are honing our defensive skills or doing historical reenactments.
I'm trying to get where you're coming from. Except really, I don't. This is not the competitive shooting scene that I experience today.

If you want to test your skill with, say, a revolver or bone stock 1911, you can absolutely do that amongst people similarly equipped and the result will come down to who is the more skilled shooter and absolutely nothing else. No rule bending, no trick guns, just straightforward shooting skill.
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  #42  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:20 PM
45dotACP 45dotACP is offline
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I'd definitely shoot a few IDPA matches with a revolver, but I'd never in a thousand years take my six shot GP100 to a USPSA match.

With the advent of practiscore, you can do a better job at comparing yourself to your peers, so I just won't compare myself to the dude running a PCC with loads so light they feel like a .22 and I'll understand that he'll get the HOA because he's shooting a rifle at a pistol target. Is it gaming? Maybe, but it's in another division so maybe not.

There are lots of dudes and dudettes who run relatively modest gear and do well. I know a production GM near me who shoots a stock (even sights I think) G17 or G34 and he dry fires so much that he's received new frames for the same gun from Glock because he literally wore the things down to G19 size with how many reloads he practiced.

When guys practice that much, it's common for a lot of other dudes who didn't beat them to say the winners all "gamed the system" or cheated. Sure, the highly modified guns are easier to shoot well, but you had better practice with them...because just buying a cool gun isn't getting you the win over the guy who wore his guns out in practice.

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  #43  
Old 11-11-2019, 07:47 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section.
What, you changed a mag while behind cover instead of having an unloaded weapon out in the open where the bad guys can see your predicament and prosecute you as an unarmed target at their leisure?

Except it is a game that is supposed to help train defensive firearm use-with examples like that one has to wonder.

I went to the range with some folks who were pretty competitive in some of these games and while I really enjoyed the practice session (they were having fun and keeping safety first. They were an experienced group that outshot me though I was hanging in there and they were very supportive of my efforts).

Later I started looking at the rules and the schedules (I'm in aviation and the skeds were problematic). I'd like to find something that is run more like a group training event than having so much of it being about the score...

If it is about practical and/or defensive shooting it has to encourage doing things the way that would best insure one's own person not being perforated in a gunfight. You know, like getting off a bar stool or reloading under the available cover.
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  #44  
Old 11-11-2019, 08:27 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I'd like to find something that is run more like a group training event than having so much of it being about the score...
Early days of combat shooting, there was an element of judging like you see in gymnastics and figure skating. But the drift was to objective rating by timer and scorecard.

The Polite Society was an effort to get realistic, but I don't see any of the many uses of the term for a shooting event any more.
I don't know if the National Tactical Invitational is still going on but Tom Givens' Tactical Conference is. Annual events, though.
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  #45  
Old 11-12-2019, 07:28 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Not so. Not by a long-shot. There are some very good ones out there - ones that challenge shooters more in keeping with the original intent of the games. Either you're not giving them a fair shake or you're not looking at the right ones. I, for one, am glad that we have outlaw matches as an option. They help to bring in folks disappointed by the change in direction of the old standbys.
I'm perfectly happy with USPSA as it currently sits and have no desire to shoot Bob's Tactical Shoot. What would some random outlaw match have to offer that I'm not getting at one of the 9 local USPSA clubs?
The only ones I have shot recently are knockdown steel and Pro Am. I used to shoot outlaw 3gun but got tired of the constant ****ery that results as a byproduct of there being no rules.
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  #46  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:37 AM
davidalyn davidalyn is offline
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I'm an old A class USPSA guy and have been a USPSA RO for more years than I can remember. I was also an IDPA shooter for a couple of years even though I only shot one IDPA classifier and was classified "Expert". As many have already stated, IDPA is a game with rules. It is not "cheating" as long a it is within the rules. If you don't like the rules, find a different gun game to participate in. I stopped shooting IDPA for numerous reasons, way too many to list here. Not much of a fan of outlaw matches either. Seems like a few folks always have enough match rule information prior to the match to have an advantage over other shooters. Someone always leaves feeling like they got shafted.......

Last edited by davidalyn; 11-12-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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  #47  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:57 AM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
I'm perfectly happy with USPSA as it currently sits and have no desire to shoot Bob's Tactical Shoot. What would some random outlaw match have to offer that I'm not getting at one of the 9 local USPSA clubs?
The only ones I have shot recently are knockdown steel and Pro Am. I used to shoot outlaw 3gun but got tired of the constant ****ery that results as a byproduct of there being no rules.
If you're attending 'outlaw' matches where there are 'no rules', then you are most definitely attending the wrong outlaw matches. No matter. Whether you personally attend outlaw matches or not, it's your choice. However, to knock down all outlaw matches in a forum where folks who do not know any better may take your commentary to heart, is not in keeping with fair play. The outlaw matches I've been involved with for decades are quite structured, yet they are also more in keeping with the original intent of the gun games, as it was years ago. What they've now turned into is a far cry from 'practical' shooting as we knew it to be. I, for one, am pleased that outlaw matches exist. They provide a venue for those not interested in what USPSA currently offers.
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  #48  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:16 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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It's plenty fair. USPSA matches are better than outlaw matches, are better attended and have higher level competition.
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  #49  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:37 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
It's plenty fair. USPSA matches are better than outlaw matches.....
To some. Not to others.
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  #50  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:42 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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You're allowed to have an opinion. It's wrong, but it's yours.
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