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  #126  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:56 AM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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General lee, by many accounts was a decent and honorable man. He was, like many others, just on the wrong side. He was not an ignorant man and he knew exactly where he stood, and who he was standing with.

One of the things that defenders of the slaveocracy often do, aside from romanticizing history turning it into a sentimental mush of old memories, is to lose any sense of judgement and morality. The PBS series on the Civil War by Ken Burns is a quiet example of that. With sentimental music playing, it wraps the war in tearful memories of tragic deaths. "A sad and unfortunate page of our history" they say. An avoidable great mistake. "If only the leaders were smarter", they say less brutal. That is all wrong and nonsense. In fact it's backhanded support for the slavers.

The victory of the Union was a great revolutionary step forward for the still young Republic. It inspired the poor and oppressed of the globe. It strengthened the democratic Republic still surrounded by gangs of thieves in the dictatorships and monarchies. It extended the vote to all in the south, it started schools where none had existed. It strengthened the industrial base of the U.S.

The revolt of the slavers looked to weaken and divide in every way the Republic.

It was also a hollow shell. The south itself was split. West Virginia joined the Union and laid out it's reasons for it. "Mountaineers are always Free" was it's motto they rejected and had fought against the slave owning aristocracy for decades before the war. Many Alabamans were forced to flee and formed their own cavalry units in the Union Army. North Carolinians heavily supported the Union and more.

During the war CSA state governors constantly threatened Jeff Davis with succeeding from the CSA if the CSA imposed too many taxes for the war or asked for local troops to help the effort in other states.

The strength of the CSA was it's slave labor. When that began to escape and help the liberating armies it's labor base dissolved and so it's wealth.

It was hollow and would have been prey to the colonial powers.

When Shermans' Army marched to the sea one of the things that inspired hatred in the troops was the number of mixed race slaves the soldiers came upon. Not a few! Where ever they went, the deeper into the south the more they saw. The religion and morality of the slave owners was a lie. Their preaching that Africans were no more than apes, and slavery was best for them, did not stop them from freely mating with slave women who had no right to say no.

The fella who denounces the violence of the oppressed seeking freedom and measures it the same as the violence of the oppressor seeking to oppress more...is a crooked and weak thing.

Last edited by tipoc; 02-17-2020 at 11:59 AM.
  #127  
Old 02-17-2020, 12:51 PM
UncleEd UncleEd is offline
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Once again Tipoc gives a fuller and more
realistic picture of what was.

Although the North had what were called
Copperheads, supporters of the southern
position, the South was full of Unionists.

Indeed, Sherman's personal body guard was
made up of the 1st Alabama (Union) Cavalry.
And much of his Army of the Tennessee came
from eastern Tennessee.

During the siege of Atlanta, Union troops
received a great deal of help from
Unionists.

Some have posted how Lincoln
suppressed opposition; well, the CSA didn't
allow Unionists to openly oppose it under
penalty of death.
  #128  
Old 02-17-2020, 02:46 PM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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We probably don't know the true reasons behind all of the wars that are fought today.

So I doubt that things were any different 150 years ago or however long ago the civil war was. We can read whatever propaganda that has been written about it over the years and pick our favorite "truths".
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Last edited by wildphil; 02-17-2020 at 02:57 PM.
  #129  
Old 02-17-2020, 03:01 PM
UncleEd UncleEd is offline
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Originally Posted by wildphil View Post
We probably don't know the true reasons behind all of the wars that are fought today.

So I doubt that things were any different 150 years ago or however long ago the civil war was. We can read whatever propaganda that has been written about it over the years and pick our favorite "truths".
So nothing is true?

All history is fiction?

We all know nothing?

That is nonsense.
  #130  
Old 02-17-2020, 07:51 PM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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What???

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
So nothing is true?

What? Of course, some things are true. What makes you think they are not?

All history is fiction?

History is not fiction. But I doubt if everything written about what has happened in history is correct. This thread pretty much proves that. How many different opinions of the reason why the civil war was fought are listed?

We all know nothing?

Know nothing about what? What the hell are you talking about?

That is nonsense.

I have to agree with you on that. Your post is total nonsense. It is impossible that everything that we read about history is true.



Amazing
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Last edited by wildphil; 02-17-2020 at 08:06 PM.
  #131  
Old 02-17-2020, 08:10 PM
FullySupported FullySupported is offline
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We can certainly know some facts about the past, but I agree that real life is extremely complex, making reliable understanding of causes and effects very difficult, both with regard to the present and the past. Some major decisions may get made because somebody had indigestion, but that won't come out. A lot of people don't even know truly why they make certain decisions, themselves, though they will rationalize them after the fact.

I find history interesting. I believe it is important to study it as a way of both understanding and constructing our current society's values and practices. However, even when the facts are agreed, people can choose to take away any lesson they like, so history really never proves anything. What is the lesson of WWII? I say it is have a lot of money, natural resources, unmatched cryptography, and brilliant scientists to design super weapons.
  #132  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:55 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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...What is the lesson of WWII? I say it is have a lot of money, natural resources, unmatched cryptography, and brilliant scientists to design super weapons.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekea.../#7e9bac143b48

Hitler was right about one thing as time has shown.
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  #133  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:44 AM
glider glider is offline
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Tipoc, you state your opinion very well. It happens to be wrong but well said anyway. Any Civil War historian I have read has said or at the very least implied that the war didn't need to happen. It was the result of an incompetent government headed by a president that had no regard for the constitution. It is important that we understand our history so that we never allow this to happen again.
  #134  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:13 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by glider View Post
Tipoc, you state your opinion very well. It happens to be wrong but well said anyway. Any Civil War historian I have read has said or at the very least implied that the war didn't need to happen. It was the result of an incompetent government headed by a president that had no regard for the constitution. It is important that we understand our history so that we never allow this to happen again.
Lincoln's mistake did not seem like it to most at the time but the true ramifications and consequences for the nation are here for all to see now but most still won't admit it.
  #135  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:52 AM
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combat auto combat auto is online now
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The war was a result of a clash of ideologies and economies, one based on the evil ideology of slavery run by Democrats (who didn't fully believe in individual rights) and the other based on an industrialized nation run by Republicans (who put a higher-premium on individual rights)...

The South was perfectly happy to go along with the system for almost 100 years as long as they weren't loosing in the courts (in a material way), but when Lincoln got elected they threw a violent tantrum and open fire on Ft. Sumter. (Kinda reminds us of the Democrat's today, happy to go along with the system as long as the other side was run by Rhinos, but now when Trump took over - the true-Conservative - they are in full tantrum mode.)...Although Lincoln thought war might come, he wasn't looking to start it. But the South went ahead and did it anyway. And they started a war they could't win. The incompetence rests with the overly emotional leaders of the South who made an illogical decision to start a war they couldn't win. They also duped so many southerners who didn't own slaves in joining them in their corrupt cause (although I fully give the common Southern-Solders kudos for bravery in action, they were great fighters (and should be honored today even as their Democrat "descendants" try to do otherwise) - but unfortunately they were lead by fools - their Politicians...The OLD-South has no one else to blame but themselves.

Trying to lay the blame elsewhere (i.e., on Lincoln) would be like blaming POTUS for instigating war because he dropped a smart-bomb on Soleimani's head. (Which indeed is what the modern-day-Democrats tried to do blame the Great-Republican-President of (our) time).

History (does) repeat itself...

As far as Sherman (if) he committed war crimes he should have been prosecuted.
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-18-2020 at 02:37 PM.
  #136  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:38 PM
saread saread is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
Tipoc, you state your opinion very well. It happens to be wrong but well said anyway. Any Civil War historian I have read has said or at the very least implied that the war didn't need to happen. It was the result of an incompetent government headed by a president that had no regard for the constitution. It is important that we understand our history so that we never allow this to happen again.
That's a different bunch of historians than the one's I've read. Let's just ignore them and take it from the source then.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp
  #137  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:03 PM
FullySupported FullySupported is offline
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I am retracting this post because it won't help. I also realize that this thread has gotten a long way from discussion of actual firearms, which is not the purported intention of this sub-forum.

Last edited by FullySupported; 02-18-2020 at 03:09 PM. Reason: On Second Thought
  #138  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:13 PM
glider glider is offline
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That's a different bunch of historians than the one's I've read. Let's just ignore them and take it from the source then.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp
Actions speak louder than words. Lincoln did trample on the constitution during the war. That is a matter of record, no denying it. Lincoln was a politician and a lawyer from Il., need I say more ?
  #139  
Old 02-18-2020, 07:00 PM
I12BFree I12BFree is online now
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The American Civil War formally ended 4/9/1865. It seems some didn't get the message. There's been anger in this thread. Some seem to write as though they are enemies of each other yet. There were grave injustices on both sides. The inhumanity is almost overwhelming even unto today.

Surrender your anger. Allow the war to end. We Americans have many enemies today and the most dangerous to our Liberty claim to be Americans, but they are not. If you need to fight, fight for American Liberty against our Domestic Enemies. We need to come together to fight the Democrats in order to reclaim the Freedom for which our forebears fought.
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  #140  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:10 PM
glider glider is offline
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I couldn't agree more ! I have said many times that there wasn't a right side in the war between the states. It's something that shouldn't have happened. I am thankful that it ended with the United States remaining united. The south will always be dixie, it's there heritage. Tearing down monuments because you don't understand what they really stand for is insane. I doubt that anyone here is in favor of that, I'm just committing.
  #141  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:20 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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I couldn't agree more ! I have said many times that there wasn't a right side in the war between the states...

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/exodus/21/16
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  #142  
Old 02-19-2020, 08:49 AM
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combat auto combat auto is online now
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This was one of the most interesting threads on the Forum for some time...Not only did it bring out the different perceptions of history, but also how much the "wounds" still linger after 160 years or so...I12B's advise is very timely on a path to move forward. Our political enemies today are the socialist-communist who want to take over this country in the here and now. United we will beat them!
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  #143  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:36 AM
saread saread is offline
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Actions speak louder than words. Lincoln did trample on the constitution during the war. That is a matter of record, no denying it. Lincoln was a politician and a lawyer from Il., need I say more ?
There is no question of that. But, there is a difference. Lincoln trampled the constitution not for personal gain, or for some nefarious need to make himself emperor, but for what he perceived as a necessary means to his stated purpose of preserving the union. Especially in the border states, there was considerable sentiment towards the south. One of the things he was trying to get a handle on quickly were insurrectionist actions in those states as well as others (e.g., some of the actions of the copperheads bordered on treason). Maryland was a special concern as it remained in the union only by the barest of margins and if it went towards the south, then it would have made the defense of Washington untenable. Tough deal for any president.

All of that being said doesn't absolve Lincoln for his excesses with respect to the rule of law. As much as I revere the man and his abilities, I find his treatment of the constitution somewhat distasteful. However, the thing to point out is that no one trampled the constitution more than the rebels. Lincoln was doing as he stated in the first inaugural, doing his job as the executive of the United States sees it, not as seen by the other two branches of the government. Lincoln was nuanced.

Quote:
The Chief Magistrate derives all his authority from the people, and they have referred none upon him to fix terms for the separation of the States. The people themselves can do this if also they choose, but the Executive as such has nothing to do with it. His duty is to administer the present Government as it came to his hands and to transmit it unimpaired by him to his successor.
  #144  
Old 02-19-2020, 01:07 PM
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So good, bad or otherwise.

President Lincoln achieved what he set out to do. He preserved the union. Here over a century later we all feel emboldened to second guess all this. But the overriding question would appear to be. Did the end justify the means in this case?

One thing is certain. The world would likely be a much different place today if he had not succeeded in keeping the nation together. You can what if this thing to death if you choose to do so. But the immediate thing that comes to mind is how would the World wars have ended? Would we all be speaking German, Russian, Japanese today. Would a bunch of non aligned banana republics have had the wherewithal to defeat the axis juggernaut? The post war soviet rise?

One can almost see divine intervention if one is predisposed to do so.
  #145  
Old 02-19-2020, 01:18 PM
saread saread is offline
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All good questions. I think by examining the excesses of the past it helps us to understand how to not, or how to, react to given situations. I think the biggest question in my mind is how much of the conversation in this thread would have changed if Lincoln would have served his second term and been the one to guide reconstruction. No matter what you may think of Lincoln during the war, I think we all understand that we, as a nation, north and south, would have been better off if JWB had not been successful.
  #146  
Old 02-19-2020, 10:32 PM
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One of the best scenes in American cinematic history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAunpxS8GXo
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  #147  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:29 PM
Litespeedaudio Litespeedaudio is offline
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I do not judge people from the past by today’s standards.
  #148  
Old 02-23-2020, 08:14 AM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
This was one of the most interesting threads on the Forum for some time...Not only did it bring out the different perceptions of history, but also how much the "wounds" still linger after 160 years or so...I12B's advise is very timely on a path to move forward. Our political enemies today are the socialist-communist who want to take over this country in the here and now. United we will beat them!
I haven't checked in for a week, but this thread has been quite an eye-opener for me, for the simple fact that so many members have a viewpoint that's so different than my own. Most have been very well expressed, and haven't fell on deaf ears, so thanks. There can be little doubt that this was the most tumultuous time in our Nation's history, and the events of the war still cast an impressive shadow, 150 years later.

Thanks to all who took a deep breath, measured their words carefully, and kept the discussion from burning down to the ground. And the mods, of course, who could have pulled the plug on day one.

L.
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  #149  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:26 AM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is online now
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.........but this thread has been quite an eye-opener for me, for the simple fact that so many members have a viewpoint that's so different than my own. Most have been very well expressed, and haven't fell on deaf ears, so thanks. And the mods, of course, who could have pulled the plug on day one.

L.
Speaking as a Mod, I'd like to echo and agree with L.E.'s comments. Having been born and raised in Yankeeland, I was taught a version of the Civil War and General Sherman that now seems narrow and biased. Thanks to all posters for a)keeping the discussion civil (no moderation required) and b)broadening my understanding of the subject.
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  #150  
Old 02-23-2020, 12:45 PM
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I just decided to sit down and read this thread front to back after previously ignoring it. It was very informative reading the differing opinions from differing perspectives, all pretty civil. Thank you all for contributing and for doing it as adults.
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