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  #26  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:01 AM
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combat auto combat auto is online now
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"Really Good" is relative...And also depends what your goals are, so it is almost impossible to answer this question "accurately" without knowing a lot more about you...Your goals can be anything from: "being able to confidently and proficiently defend yourself (legally)", all the way to "I wanna-b a Grand Master" and everything else in btwn. Are you just looking to defend yourself or be a hot-shot gamer for example? And how much range time are you devoted to?

Personally, and only personally, my goals are somewhere in btwn. I require myself to be able to put rounds at will into an 8" disc at 25Y standing off hand at say a 90%+ hit rate and at good speed (slow Bullsye I can shoot a 2" group at 25Y with a 45 freehand, but don't spend much time on bullsye anymore)...I also like to be extremely proficient at "head-shots" on a 4X4" head from 7 to 25Y.

I also require myself to be able to do a variety of SD drills at 7 and 10 rounds with aplomb. For example, I require myself to be able to do a FAST drill at the "Advanced-Level" according to this metric. And I only count the first stone-cold run as my time, not say run 3 or so after being warmed-up.

10 or more seconds: Novice
Less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
Less than 7 seconds: Advanced
Less than 5 seconds: Expert

And I do agree with some of the comments above concerning the relentless obsession of speed. The most important thing is not to overrun your capability and let accuracy suffer. I would wager, if anything, there would be a natural tendency in a real shootout to "speed-up", so it is important to keep this under control. But I do agree with comments above the speed to first (accurate) shot is the most important time of all. Split times less important...Also, all these SD drills are stylized, great training, but they are only a distorted-reflection of the reality of a gun fight (there is movement, shooting back at you, and a many other variables which can be involved).

Separately, best/funniest post above is the one recommending watching Jon Wick movies . Sometimes one has to wonder what people are watching based on their recommendations.
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Last edited by combat auto; 02-18-2020 at 02:23 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:06 AM
MichaelE MichaelE is offline
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Surviving a self-defense shooting intact with the bad guy no longer a threat.
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  #28  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:22 AM
glider glider is offline
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I would say that being able to stay in the black at 25 yards standing is decent. A 3 ft. wide gong at 100 yards is good. Having the knowledge to maintain your firearm and handle it in a safe manner is good. My shooting and collecting is a hobby, I'm not training for any competition. Nothing wrong with that, just not interested. I think that being competent with a firearm and self defense are 2 separate things. Self defense is a state of mind more than anything.
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  #29  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:45 AM
Fazer386 Fazer386 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steven1127 View Post
I'm trying to figure out what a good end goal would be for handgun skill. What size groups at what distances would you call someone really good with a handgun? I'm not talking about a competitive bullseye person. Probably more like a decent IDPA type of person.

Thanks
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Take a class at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. They will train you to handle your weapon and defend yourself.
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  #30  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:46 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
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Originally Posted by Litespeedaudio View Post
https://youtu.be/gCOGhiaW5SA

Clint at Thunder Ranch is my go to guy for shooting advice.

https://youtu.be/H3l6BR4YXKY

I really like the “Till it’s empty “ video
Clint video is great. Never saw him before.
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  #31  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:49 AM
Steven1127 Steven1127 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Judging by what I see at the public range every weekend, if you can even hit a life-sized human silhouette target at ten paces you're doing better than most.
Oofff
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  #32  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:24 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Sub 5 second fast drill, 1.25 second first round full zone headshot on an IDPA target at 7 yards, .99 or better chest A zone and sub 3 second bill drill
I tend to think along these lines.

I would add the Four Aces drill (two shots, reload, two shots) under 3.0s at 7 yards, all As.
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  #33  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:30 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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On the speed thing, I and others I shoot with don't value a speed increase unless precision is maintained. Anyone can pull the trigger fast or pull off fast first shots or fast mag changes, with a little practice. Not everyone can be faster than most while getting 95+% of the available points/hits in any given shooting drill or match.

I've worked hard on raw speed and it has helped me, but what helps me more is when I stay focused on applying the fundamentals (excellent shooting grip, sight picture) consistently.
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  #34  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:31 PM
WobbleZone WobbleZone is offline
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I maintain that the most important shot at the range is the first one, before I have the chance to warm up, get accustomed to ambient conditions, etc.
Therefore, it must be shot with my normal defensive carry and drawn from concealment. I toss one of those self-healing 4 inch target squares to a random range between ten and twenty yards and draw and fire as quickly as I can while acquiring a flash sight picture. I almost always hit it. I used to like to shoot my .22 first, until I realized that this was not a smart thing to do.

Because of my age (73) and trembling hands, I have to be realistic about trying to shoot tight groups. If I can put all rounds on a six inch Shoot-N-See target at 25 yards with my 10mm's and .45's I am happy, except for the longslide Nighthawk 10mm. I expect much better when I use that gun.
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  #35  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:43 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Remember what Wyatt Earp said about winning gunfights... you need to take your time, in a hurry. In other words you mustn't let your quest to be the fastest overtake your ability to be accurate, because that's what counts in the end. Personally I am more impressed with a man who can slow-fire ten rounds into the black at 50 yards than I am some hotshot who can draw and fire at a target several feet away in .5 second.
If you miss you aren't fast. Fast is getting hits every time at all ranges, anyone can hit something given enough time. Most can't under pressure or a timer
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  #36  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:47 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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One of the things Steel Challenge has taught me: accurate is fast (relatively). However, you can shoot a match very precisely and have a bad score. Speed and accuracy BOTH have to be there to be competitive.

Other things you learn when you analyze your scores as you remember how your stages went:
Slow is slow.
Missing is slow.
Smooth is smooth -- might be fast, might be slow.
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Last edited by GunBugBit; 02-18-2020 at 02:05 PM.
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  #37  
Old 02-19-2020, 01:17 PM
olds442guy olds442guy is offline
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If you’re mid A class or better in USPSA you’re a pretty solid shooter (using the current high hit factors, not the old easy ones). Even B class, you’ll seem like a god to your friends who don’t compete LOL.

The USPSA classifier system is very good. Even more so now with newer classifiers that have movement in them. Doing well on a particular classifier requires BOTH speed and accuracy, and classifiers commonly have a mixture of various target difficulties that you must transition between. They are great tests of your skill. You can look up the diagrams and high hit factors (basically high scores) so you can set them up correctly in practice and get an idea for how good your score is compared to all other USPSA members.

If you’re serious about being good at pistol shooting and you aren’t actively involving yourself in USPSA, you’re doing yourself a disservice. The added bonus is that it’s also REALLY fun
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  #38  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:55 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Sub 5 second fast drill, 1.25 second first round full zone headshot on an IDPA target at 7 yards, .99 or better chest A zone and sub 3 second bill drill
I tend to think along these lines.

I would add the Four Aces drill (two shots, reload, two shots) under 3.0s at 7 yards, all As.
Concealed or USPSA style? I use 4 seconds for fully concealed with a low tide and 3.5 for a high ride
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  #39  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:13 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Concealed or USPSA style? I use 4 seconds for fully concealed with a low tide and 3.5 for a high ride
USPSA style in my example. Four seconds seems like a reasonable par time for starting from concealment.
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  #40  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:16 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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If you’re mid A class or better in USPSA you’re a pretty solid shooter (using the current high hit factors, not the old easy ones). Even B class, you’ll seem like a god to your friends who don’t compete LOL.
The shooting is VERY good in USPSA A class. A mid-A shooter (someone who actually shoots at that level, consistently), is much better than a pretty solid shooter to me.

I know C shooters I consider "pretty solid." They aren't especially fast but are accurate and consistent. And still faster than those who don't compete at all but just think they're pretty good.
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  #41  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:17 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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If you’re serious about being good at pistol shooting and you aren’t actively involving yourself in USPSA, you’re doing yourself a disservice. The added bonus is that it’s also REALLY fun
Couldn't agree more!
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  #42  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:27 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by olds442guy View Post
If you’re mid A class or better in USPSA you’re a pretty solid shooter (using the current high hit factors, not the old easy ones). Even B class, you’ll seem like a god to your friends who don’t compete LOL.
The shooting is VERY good in USPSA A class. A mid-A shooter (someone who actually shoots at that level, consistently), is much better than a pretty solid shooter to me.

I know C shooters I consider "pretty solid." They aren't especially fast but are accurate and consistent. And still faster than those who don't compete at all but just think they're pretty good.
A level guys are annoying to shoot against since you simply can't mess up or you WILL go down at least one slot on the board. The consistency is the hard part since a c level guy can have a A lead beating day once a year but it's extremely rare for an A level to ever shoot much more than 10-15% below their average on a really bad day.......

The divide in skill is something that even non-shooters can physically see just from video.
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  #43  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:35 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Yes, especially if watching a split screen of an A and a C guy side by side, shooting the same stage.

There's less of a difference if watching an A and a GM. Sometimes the A guy will take out a target cluster here and there a little faster than the GM, but the GM dude will shoot faster on average and execute his draws and reloads and movement more crisply -- meaning, again, faster. GMs are a lot of fun to watch, and moreso when you understand what they are doing exactly that is quantitatively better than what you and your buddies can do.

When you go up to the targets and score what you just saw done lightning fast, you are sometimes amazed to see hits very close together, right in the middle of the A zone, on just about every target. What these people do is astonishing. Compete just to be able to see these folks in action, in person. It's something.
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Last edited by GunBugBit; 02-19-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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  #44  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:49 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
Yes, especially if watching a split screen of an A and a C guy side by side, shooting the same stage.

There's less of a difference if watching an A and a GM. Sometimes the A guy will take out a target cluster here and there a little faster than the GM, but the GM dude will shoot faster on average and execute his draws and reloads and movement more crisply -- meaning, again, faster. GMs are a lot of fun to watch, and moreso when you understand what they are doing exactly that is quantitatively better than what you and your buddies can do.

When you go up to the targets and score what you just saw done lightning fast, you are sometimes amazed to see hits very close together, right in the middle of the A zone, on just about every target. What these people do is astonishing. Compete just to be able to see these folks in action, in person. It's something.
I'm "hated" at local IDPA matches for my infamous use of a 1911 and doing the two round touching stack. People so indeed freak out over the stacking of shots at speed

I will say it's interesting how little of an increase in speed or a slight fumble/error/mental uncertainty can turn a stacker type shooter into a 3-4 inch group shooter. There is at least for me a cut off point if I go too fast that I can no longer have perfectly consistent shots

I absolutely HATE PCCs btw, it's actually impossible to beat them unless they make an error and by default you will not be able to take the 1st leaderboard spot anymore unless you go down to their level and use a rifle or the PCC shooters plain suck.
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  #45  
Old 02-19-2020, 04:53 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by vortec View Post
DVC: Speed, Accuracy, and Power.

Strive for personal best to win in any circumstance, 2nd place loses.
^^This^^

Numbers are useless. Only hits count at whatever speed is necessary to win.
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  #46  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:33 PM
Company_Man Company_Man is offline
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Is your target shooting back at you?

Your computed hit scoring will vary accordingly.
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  #47  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:49 PM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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Just finished the short book "Shooting to Live" by William E. Fairbairn and Eric Anthony Sykes, written in 1942. It is contrary to much of what is taught today, and it also re-enforces much of what is taught. Fairbairn's history can be googled...he basically designed the British OSE and the US OSS spy schools in WW2. His book on what is important when shooting is based on his and his partner's years as head of the Shanghai Municipal Police...aka hell on earth. His point of view is simple...he isn't interested target shoot (though he respects those who do it)...his only interest is in killing someone as efficiently as possible so he and he fellow police officers and detectives get to go home at the end of the day. He feels there isn't time in most shootouts to "aim" but rather become skilled in drawing fast, pointing and shooting so that your bullets hit the other guy before his hit you. It is a worthwhile read.
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  #48  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:51 PM
olds442guy olds442guy is offline
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Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
The shooting is VERY good in USPSA A class. A mid-A shooter (someone who actually shoots at that level, consistently), is much better than a pretty solid shooter to me.

I know C shooters I consider "pretty solid." They aren't especially fast but are accurate and consistent. And still faster than those who don't compete at all but just think they're pretty good.
I agree, to be clear when I say “pretty solid” I mean that in very positive way. I think A class is kind of the bottom of “good” in the sport. I had to work very hard to bump from B to A. The reason I wouldn’t say “very good” is mainly because I’m currently M, and while I compete at that level and can consistently shoot classifier scores at that level on demand in matches, I honestly would NOT consider myself “very good”. Maybe “getting to be decent” lol

Similarly to how USPSA matches will open your eyes to the skill level that is out there with some folks, major matches will do that for you again with a substantial step up in competition compared to even a great local match.
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  #49  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:36 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Remember what Wyatt Earp said about winning gunfights... you need to take your time, in a hurry. In other words you mustn't let your quest to be the fastest overtake your ability to be accurate, because that's what counts in the end. Personally I am more impressed with a man who can slow-fire ten rounds into the black at 50 yards than I am some hotshot who can draw and fire at a target several feet away in .5 second.
While related, these are two fundamentally different performances measures of skill. One is purely precision oriented, the other is focused on practical application.
You're correct in that you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight- but neither will tight, offhand, 50m groups at a snails pace. You hve to be able to get solid hits, AND you need to do it before you get shot. Some precisely can be sacrifice for speed, but a balance must be reached
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  #50  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:13 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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Is it you shooting position, good aim, good gun handling or gun control? Maybe your breathing? You can be as accurate as you want to be, it’s practice, practice more practice. Focus on being accurate. Only take one gun to the range and stay shooting it till your accurate with it.

Me, standing up, handheld at 25 yds with my norinco 1911 build using wolf ball ammo I can shoot clusters and cloverleafs. Around 1 1/2” groups. I owe my norinco accuracy to the way I fitted the 100% barrel/bushing lock up.
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