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  #51  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:49 PM
kitchencounsel kitchencounsel is offline
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Seems to me that advocating for no safety on a handgun - and disabling what it there - is like leaving your car parked in neutral with the parking brake off. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself wondering "Where's my car?" then following the tracks up the lawn and onto the front porch of the house at the bottom of the hill...

Not only are safeties there for a reason - that people aren't perfect - but I'd love to see you explain to the attorney for the person you accidentally discharged your weapon into why you pinned and disabled a perfectly good safety the manufacturer of the firearm had provided. Rotsa Ruck!

Even if the shooting isn't accidental, but a perfectly justifiable act of self-defense, I can just see the prosecutor telling the jury you're a mad-dog (fill in the blank: racist, blood-thirsty killer, etc.) because "He was so eager to kill that he purposely disabled the safety device(s) on the gun." At the very least, it will be used to impeach you as a responsible person. Again, good luck with that.
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:09 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Define "training". Define "properly trained". Just for fun, define "professional"....
All are very ambiguous terms. My example highlights a population that has some education in the effective and safe use of firearms, and carry them daily for a living. Industry standard (such as they are) and State laws accredit their training....
And within that population, one can find thousands of examples of sub par performance, where "training " failed....
You are welcome to look-up those definitions in whatever dictionary or legal source you choose. As for "professional", you mentioned it first, so ask yourself.

At this point you are making a poor attempt at Trolling this topic and are contributing nothing positive.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:32 PM
Joe-n-TX Joe-n-TX is offline
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In my 28yrs of law enforcement I witnessed more ADs with 1911s than any others. I do love the 1911s for nostalgia purposes but Glocks and Sigs for me. My first issued pistol, Mod 10 S&W didn’t come with a safety.
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  #54  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:21 PM
Markbo Markbo is online now
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I just got my 2nd plastic gun. An S&W M&P 2.0 in 9mm. Being a 1911 guy a thumb safety is automatic for me so I ordered it with the thumb safety. It is second nature. I find on guns tbat don't have them I sweep that thumb down anyway.
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:22 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
I just got my 2nd plastic gun. An S&W M&P 2.0 in 9mm. Being a 1911 guy a thumb safety is automatic for me so I ordered it with the thumb safety. It is second nature. I find on guns tbat don't have them I sweep that thumb down anyway. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
That won’t hurt a thing😆
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:35 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
You are welcome to look-up those definitions in whatever dictionary or legal source you choose. As for "professional", you mentioned it first, so ask yourself.

At this point you are making a poor attempt at Trolling this topic and are contributing nothing positive.
Im far from a troll, I've been here a day or 2, and I stand by what I say.. you're the one who brought up the first 2 terminal, hence the question....

I identified a population that claims, collectively, to be "trained'- that has an incredibly high number of documented instances where that "training" failed. This woild indicate that the "safety" between the ears is the most prone to fail. I would aslo also suggest that the baseline definition of a "professional" is one who routinely performs a task for a living. So one who carries a firearm on a daily basis as a requirement of the job should be expected to be a "professional " when it comes to handling firearm....
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:37 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Joe-n-TX View Post
In my 28yrs of law enforcement I witnessed more ADs with 1911s than any others. I do love the 1911s for nostalgia purposes but Glocks and Sigs for me. My first issued pistol, Mod 10 S&W didnít come with a safety.
And thst M10 had about a 12 pound double actions trigger, and a one inch pull stroke. A far cry from a 4# pull and 1/16" stroke....
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2020, 09:27 PM
shep854 shep854 is offline
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A lot depends on the trigger for me. If the gyn has a relatively long, heavy trigger that requires some focused effort to pull, such as a DA trigger, no external safety is fine. For a light SA or striker trigger, I like a safety as something of an 'Are you sure?' feature.
A deliberate safety also gives a gun something of a proprietary nature, since someone unfamiliar with the gun is more likely to fumble a shot, giving the owner time to gain control of the weapon. Massad Ayoob has documented several cases over the years of police officers whose lives were saved in similar situations.
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  #59  
Old 02-12-2020, 09:53 PM
JET55 JET55 is offline
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Interesting fact, the guy that graduated #300 in his class of 300 is still called doctor. The cop that just barely qual'd with his duty gun wears it every day. The guy that shoots every weekend can probably safely handle all the firearms he owns.

Thumb, grip, trigger, safety's should be used if they are part of your firearm. I can't think of any time I didn't buy a firearm I wanted because of the safety. I just learned how to use it. Life's too short not to sample.....IMO
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  #60  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:50 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
I can tell you this.....safeties are very confusing to new shooters. Most want them...then struggle to use them.
New shooters these days must not be very bright. Likely not the case. Likely never had access or taught as they grew up.

Or perhaps teaching methods are not so great
Could be the same reason.

Instructors need to instruct the new student in the design of each gun they bring to class. Thus know how each is designed and proper order of operation.

That is how years ago introduction and teaching was passed down frequently by father to son starting when the son was in elementary school.

Really apparent when joined the military in the 1970s. The guys who grew up with and were taught by their fathers could shoot and handle handguns rifles and shotguns. These were usually farm boys who were hunters.
Those who did not, frequently as many suburbanites did not know or have the proficiency and could not shoot. I gave some good tips that improved their shooting right away. But they really had to start at the beginning.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 02-13-2020 at 08:29 AM.
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  #61  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:54 PM
ronbwolf ronbwolf is offline
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I think it was Jeff Cooper who said, " The only safety that counts, is between your ears!" DA revolvers were carried for years, with no safety. I carry a 1911, and a Ruger LCR, daily. I carried Glocks for years, and shot a competition recently with my Glock 19. Safety, no safety, meh! Train with what you use and it doesn't matter.

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  #62  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:49 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-n-TX View Post
In my 28yrs of law enforcement I witnessed more ADs with 1911s than any others. I do love the 1911s for nostalgia purposes but Glocks and Sigs for me. My first issued pistol, Mod 10 S&W didn’t come with a safety.
Revolvers have lots of safeties built-in; you just don't see them. But effective training is always the best safety. Anyone who has AD w/ firearms has not been effectively trained or conditioned to operate them safely. Whether is is a revolver, 1911 or Tupperware, ADs do not happen if you know how to use the gun and remember the four Rules, especially #3.

1911 ADs happen because of operator error due to insufficient training and conditioning. That is why I when I see new shooters bragging about getting their first one, I always tell them to get specific training with their shiny new purchase; but that goes for any firearm.
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  #63  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:52 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by JET55 View Post
Interesting fact, the guy that graduated #300 in his class of 300 is still called doctor. The cop that just barely qual'd with his duty gun wears it every day.
Not everyone can be a rock star, there's plenty of room for lukewarm oatmeal....
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  #64  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:13 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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I wouldn't put too much faith in the 1911 grip safety - it only blocks the trigger and will prevent you form firing the gun with a less than perfect grip on many 1911s. Mine are all pinned down.
The newer "memory bump" grip safetys do a good job correcting this. Or you can just fit them like Colt did my Gold Cup. I've purposely held improper grips, and that thing is so sensitive, it still fires.
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  #65  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:47 AM
jr24 jr24 is online now
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Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drail View Post
I wouldn't put too much faith in the 1911 grip safety - it only blocks the trigger and will prevent you form firing the gun with a less than perfect grip on many 1911s. Mine are all pinned down.
The newer "memory bump" grip safetys do a good job correcting this. Or you can just fit them like Colt did my Gold Cup. I've purposely held improper grips, and that thing is so sensitive, it still fires.
The only one thats ever given me a problem with less than ideal grip is my doublestack R1, which can cause some issues one handed.
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  #66  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:27 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
But effective training is always the best safety.

Anyone who has AD w/ firearms has not been effectively trained or conditioned to operate them safely.

1911 ADs happen because of operator error due to insufficient training and conditioning.
I agree, at least in concept, with your first statement.

The last two I have some difficulty with. I've seen NDs happen to men who have a degree of training and experience that most can only fantasize about-hundreds or thousands of hours of well developed, deliberate, focused training, and 10s 0r 100s of thousands of rounds downrange.
All it takes is a moment of inattention or distraction...

However, I do NOT subscribe to the theory that there are 2 types of shooters- those that have had an ND, and those that WILL have an ND. I don't believe human failure is pre ordained.
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  #67  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:04 AM
IZNTHESKY IZNTHESKY is offline
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Great...I am not alone.
I am neither a fan of safeties. If the need ever arises that you grab your gun to protect yourself or a loved one......I donít want anything to interfere with my drawing and firing the pistol. A grip or trigger safety is fine as they do not involve any additional gross motor skills to manipulate.

Some may argue.....but imagine:
an attacker or multiple attackers that are already striking, pushing and wrestling with you.....
Can you protect yourself for the few precious seconds with one arm....while drawing and firing with the other ?

Will your mind and hand be able to manipulate that safety switch while you are focused on protecting yourself from attack.
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  #68  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:10 AM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Originally Posted by IZNTHESKY View Post
Great...I am not alone.
I am neither a fan of safeties. If the need ever arises that you grab your gun to protect yourself or a loved one......I don’t want anything to interfere with my drawing and firing the pistol. A grip or trigger safety is fine as they do not involve any additional gross motor skills to manipulate.

Some may argue.....but imagine:
an attacker or multiple attackers that are already striking, pushing and wrestling with you.....
Can you protect yourself for the few precious seconds with one arm....while drawing and firing with the other ?

Will your mind and hand be able to manipulate that safety switch while you are focused on protecting yourself from attack.
First, if you’re so far behind the curve that an attack is already underway.......you’re pretty much screwed in the conditions you describe.

Second, if you think any meaningful time is being lost by having to disengage said safeties, that’s either wrong, or you are insinuating unfamiliarity with that system.

Third, if the lack of awareness is catching anyone that unaware, a gun may not be for you, or a completely revamped plan is in order.
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  #69  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:45 AM
IZNTHESKY IZNTHESKY is offline
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Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
First, if youíre so far behind the curve that an attack is already underway.......youíre pretty much screwed in the conditions you describe.

Second, if you think any meaningful time is being lost by having to disengage said safeties, thatís either wrong, or you are insinuating unfamiliarity with that system.

Third, if the lack of awareness is catching anyone that unaware, a gun may not be for you, or a completely revamped plan is in order.

Your an amateur. Life does not always happen they way that you would like to imagine it
1. Yes...if if your behind the curve and the attack is underway...can you save yourself ? How often do you or have you actually trained yourself for this scenario. This is a reality....your a fool to imagine that this cannot happen.

2. Your correct we should always strive to be aware of our surroundings...
But your foolish to think that you cannot be caught off guard.

3. I am not insinuating that safeties are bad or that they take time to disengage.
I am only saying that.....in the worst conditions of fighting for your life....
Your gross motor skills will work.....hopefully the way you have trained.....
And your FINE motor skills (ie; manipulating safety switch) will deteriorate.
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  #70  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:54 AM
gnappi gnappi is offline
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I like the safety between my ears best, after that thumb, grip not necessary but if it's there it's invisible anyway. I'll admit to likely being in a minority as I have no issues with handguns that have firing pin and magazine safeties.

Last edited by gnappi; 02-13-2020 at 11:56 AM.
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  #71  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:58 AM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Ok, I’m an amateur.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but pure speed rarely, as in RARELY is a factor in the outcome of a gunfight.........

So do what floats your boat, but thinking the disengagement of a safety or safeties on any gun you have chosen to carry, because it slows you down too much certainly shows someone to be an amateur.
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  #72  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:20 PM
jtq jtq is offline
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Originally Posted by IZNTHESKY View Post
Your gross motor skills will work.....hopefully the way you have trained.....
And your FINE motor skills (ie; manipulating safety switch) will deteriorate.
Trigger manipulation and thumb safety manipulation are pretty much the same. As is operating the mag release and the slide stop/slide release. Gross or fine motor skill, you take your pick. If you can work the trigger, you can work the thumb safety, and the mag release, and the slide stop/slide release.

I asked a couple of members earlier in this thread who commented they don't like safeties on their guns, and folks seem to keep popping up saying the same, but this is a 1911 Forum. All 1911's (OK, nearly all) have a thumb safety and a grip safety, and folks are here complaining about the presences of such devices on a gun they probably have, or at least I'd think they have or they wouldn't be here posting on a 1911 forum.

I always wonder, over at GlockTalk or wherever folks like to hang out and post about their polymer, striker fired, no manual safety equipped pistols, are there a bunch of guys posting in threads comments like...

- "I'll never carry a gun without a manual safety as you'll shoot yourself"
- "Striker triggers are terrible and completely unusable"
- "Polymer guns are incredibly inaccurate and don't work at all"

My guess is no. If you shoot a Glock, or revolver, or 1911, or ray-gun, you understand how the system works and have come to grips with strengths and weakness of each gun.

My point is, if you don't like the manual of arms on a 1911, and perhaps lack the ability or confidence in your ability to operate the 1911, don't project your shortfalls on others who may have the ability to operate the 1911 properly.

If you don't like a manual safety, for whatever reason, that's fine, but don't tell other folks they shouldn't have one because they can't work them and a safety will get them killed on the streets. You don't know their skill set.

I don't want folks who hate pistols with manual safeties to leave the forum, please stay and learn about the 1911, but I think it would be helpful to avoid commenting about how the gun should be employed if you don't have a desire, or skillset, to employ the gun yourself.
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  #73  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:02 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Your only option for a single action auto without a safety is a Tokarev (the imported ones with the mandated retrofitted safety don't count, since the gun didn't have it from the factory)

Also, if you ride the thumb safety while shooting the gun, disengaging it upon draw shouldn't be difficult, since your thumb would already be on top of it during your natural grip.
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  #74  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:25 PM
shep854 shep854 is offline
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I’m taking a liking to the Sig P320, but the trigger is just light and short enough for me to want a thumb safety for insurance.
No, I do NOT rest my finger inside the trigger guard, but guns have ND’ed when foreign objects have somehow gotten inside the guard and pressed the trigger.
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  #75  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:34 PM
Black Jack Black Jack is offline
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I am ambivalent about the grip safety. If it is there, fine. If it is not there, fine.

However, I do require a thumb safety or I will not purchase that pistol. I do not believe that a heavy trigger pull makes up for the absence of a thumb safety. This becomes very obvious when you look at some of the instances where, most notably, a Glock has been discharged while holstering because something got hung up on the trigger while holstering. I can recall two specific instances where this happened to LEO's. One was when re-holstering, an officer caught her finger in the trigger guard and ended up with a minor wound when her Glock fired. The other was several years ago, out in California, when an officer inadvertently got the cord at the bottom of his jacket caught up in the trigger guard when he re-holstered his Glock. A few hours later, while he was stretching to reach for something, the cord pulled on the trigger, depressing the trigger safety and put a hole through the floor of his squad. Neither of these woudl have happened if there had been an thumb safety.

Without a thumb safety, I am not interested.
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