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  #151  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:01 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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There is no denying that an expanding bullet increases the odds of at least nicking a vital organ or artery. At the same time, a flat nosed projectile that comes in contact with bone, sends bone pieces everywhere, also increasing the likelihood of at least a nick on the vitals.
A FMJ Round nose just slips on through or ricochets off bone. If it hits a vital directly, it is no better or worse than a HP. "Odds Are" that a flat nose or HP will be more effective in the long run. I do not carry FMJ RN.....
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  #152  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:29 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback22 View Post
There is an old saying I came up with a few months back:
"A hit to a non-vital area with a hollowpoint is no more effective than a hit with a full metal jacket round. A hit to a vital area with a full metal jacket is no less effective than a hit with a hollowpoint round."
The problem with expanding bullets is reliable, repeatable performance and even today, despite all the marketing, expanding bullets are no more "reliable" than they were 30 years ago. Bear in mind the bullet that got ALL the blame for not stopping the Miami shooter in 1986 was a 9mm expanding bullet that failed to penetrate into the heart. Had that bullet been a FMJ 124gr. NATO round it would most likely have punched ALL the way through and exited. The one thing we KNOW for sure when a bullet exits is that it hit and damaged everything in the middle!
When you anticipate encountering bear you don't even consider JHP ammo, but when the topic turns to humans, which are easily likely to weigh as much as smaller bears and are every bit as dangerous, people think nothing of leaving the .500 S&W at home in favor of a super-sub-compact with JHP ammo. Unfortunately humans don't just stand there and wait for their shooting, nor do they "square up" for it so the bullet has only a few inches to penetrate before encountering something tasty. As soon as a large adult male starts presenting "angles" all bets are off when it comes to predicting what any expanding handgun bullet in the sub-500fpe range is going to do. Worse still is the fact that magnums can achieve higher velocities which makes expanding bullets open up faster and penetrate LESS! Unless of course the bullet is specifically made for that added speed which is not generally the case.
Over-penetration is also over-hyped. I've seen a person hit in the hip by a .45ACP "hardball" that stopped in the bladder - traversing a distance of maybe 8 inches to get there. It certainly didn't zoom clean through him, and it had no effect what-so-ever on his ability to walk into the ER and announce he "thought" he'd been shot.
I've also seen 9mm HP hits that went clean through the upper torso, tearing out ragged plugs because there is very little in the human chest cavity to slow a bullet down on a front-to-back hit. Hit seven times the "kid" was alert, talking, and could easily have gone home save for the chest tube we inserted to reinflate his lung. I remember another guy showed up by ambulance, shot clean THROUGH his FACE by a low-powered handgun. Based on the entrance hole and exit "slit" it was most likely a .38spl round nose. The bullet entered the bridge of his nose, traversed through his ethmoid sinus, glanced off the base of the cranial vault, deflected slightly sideways and exited just below the occipital lobe of the skull. "Treatment" consisted of two band-aids after imaging studies to determine the extent of internal injury. That patient went home the next day!

Now, everyone THINKS expanding bullets are more effective, and in certain situations I'd agree, but when dealing with what are essentially "large game animals" (humans), I'd take a FMJ over an expander, and I'd take a cartridge making supersonic velocity over one carrying more mass. The .38 hit to the face didn't kill the man, though it likely ended the altercation. Another shot probably would would have killed the man. The 9mm hits didn't kill that young man either, and they all went clean through (7 hits, 14 holes in this example), despite being JHP bullets, and yet, after the initial "surprise" he was in excellent condition and required very little medical care considering. Despite the number of hits, none passed through a vital zone - all were to the left side of the chest region.

I remember another young man who shot himself in the chest with a 'home-made" .22. He came in by ambulance and did not survive despite considerable efforts to save him. One shot dead center, directly over the heart.

And then we have the documented shootings we can all view or read about.

We also have a plethora of real-life video "data" where we can see people being shot and how they reacted - regardless of caliber and ammunition type used.

The bottom line is, if that bullet passes into or through a vital spot - the person is going down. If not, they will react in a variety of ways, generally toward self-preservation in the form of ducking, dodging, and running...which could equal a "one shot stop" or even a no shot stop, or full miss stop if the attacker leaves off the attack!

The lowly .22LR has as good of a "track record" as does the 9mm, .38 spl, and .45 auto. .22 bullets fired from short barrels have done complete pass-throughs on humans, and bullet design has little to do with it. Certainly all calibers will kill, and all are equally effective at "stopping" since that is a far more subjective concept.

I don't think the person carrying a 9mm loaded with "real" 9mm power ammo in FMJ is at a disadvantage to one carrying a down-loaded JHP "defensive" round.
So true sir. It's what I have witnessed in 30 years as an LEO.
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  #153  
Old 01-20-2020, 12:06 PM
drail drail is offline
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Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles use ball rounds. Ball ammo was chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.

Last edited by drail; 01-20-2020 at 12:09 PM.
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  #154  
Old 01-20-2020, 12:13 PM
Xhair Xhair is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles used ball rounds also. Ball rounds were chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.
It is true that the U.S. did not sign it but, be we did adhere to it. There are many rifle bullets that feed just as reliably as fmj's.
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  #155  
Old 01-20-2020, 12:54 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Originally Posted by Xhair View Post
Wrong.

"The Pentagon's devotion to full-metal jacket, or ball ammunition, is the result of a 116-year-old guideline in the 1899 Hague Convention that prohibits combat units from using of bullets that "expand or flatten easily" inside the human body."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...or-the-m9.html



The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention. We generally follow the crowd, so to speak, by not using expanding bullets but we can do so if we wish to. Aside from that, the biggest reason for using FMJ is reliability of function in feed cycle.


I also have to agree with Razorback in preferring solids/softpoints/FMJ type to hollow points. Due to feeding considerations, it is harder to find a good solid/FMJ for an autoloader than it is a revolver, especially since Hornady dropped production of their FMJ-FP which was a truly exceptional bullet. Instead of that one, I use Golden Saber 230 Bonded, or Critical Duty 220 in .45 ACP, and flat point or wide flat point heavy lead bullets in revolvers.
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  #156  
Old 01-20-2020, 01:22 PM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
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Hollow Points are awesome.....but the key is....shot placement. You can have the latest space age HP out there and a bad hit will only make the bad guy chase you down the street with a knife in his hand!!!
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  #157  
Old 01-20-2020, 03:13 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drail View Post
Woody b and Xhair - we never signed the Hague Convention Accord. All of our rifles use ball rounds. Ball ammo was chosen for feed reliability - NOT because of any treaty.
And all the special forces use ammo that doesn't act like ball for a reason

Mk262, 318, and the new 855A1 all frag and expand for a reason
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  #158  
Old 01-20-2020, 03:45 PM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
And all the special forces use ammo that doesn't act like ball for a reason

Mk262, 318, and the new 855A1 all frag and expand for a reason
Yep and most of the public doesn't know that.
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  #159  
Old 01-20-2020, 04:05 PM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
And we put way too much emphasis on it for defensive shooting as well. The FBI has said for years that over penetration of defensive loads is statistically nonexistant.
It has happened a couple times in my town---courtesy of gang bangers at play---one unfortunate individual was on the next block----the other was a child asleep in her crib.
Very tragic.
And this isn't uncommon in Los Angeles, either.
Apparently the FBI isn't concerned.
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  #160  
Old 01-20-2020, 05:29 PM
Bubble Head Bubble Head is offline
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Why bother with hollow points or ball for defensive purposes? Someone mentioned Lehigh earlier, but I think Underwood is a slightly better buy. I carry Xtreme Defender +P in 9mm for personal carry and .45acp for home defense. I've seen some testing done with 9mm and it was highly impressive, so I doubt that .45 would suck for some odd reason.
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  #161  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:56 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhair View Post
It is true that the U.S. did not sign it but, be we did adhere to it. There are many rifle bullets that feed just as reliably as fmj's.
JACKETED SOFT POINT feed soooooo much better then people think
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  #162  
Old 01-21-2020, 05:38 AM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Originally Posted by John Joseph View Post
It has happened a couple times in my town---courtesy of gang bangers at play---one unfortunate individual was on the next block----the other was a child asleep in her crib.
Very tragic.
And this isn't uncommon in Los Angeles, either.
Apparently the FBI isn't concerned.



Nor should they be. As tragic as those incidents are, they are NOT examples of overpenetration. They are examples of dumbass gang scum spraying bullets in every direction that didn't hit their intended targets. Take down the gangbangers and that kind of crap won't happen.
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  #163  
Old 01-21-2020, 06:45 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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And yet, communities sit idly by and allow this crap to fester.
There ARE ways to deal with this scum. Don’t even begin to tell me that local law enforcement doesn’t know who the bad guys are. They look them in the eyes every day, but their hands are tied.
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  #164  
Old 01-21-2020, 11:29 AM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
And yet, communities sit idly by and allow this crap to fester.
There ARE ways to deal with this scum. Don’t even begin to tell me that local law enforcement doesn’t know who the bad guys are. They look them in the eyes every day, but their hands are tied.



That's it in a nutshell. We could eliminate the problem in a couple of days, nationwide. But, the people in charge don't have the backbone to do so because it would be a bloody, brutal, nasty business. All the bleeding hearts would be gnashing their teeth, rending their clothes, and wringing their hands. We'd have to bury a bunch of a thugs, criminals, and gang bangers, but so what? Rabid dogs get put down, or the disease spreads.
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  #165  
Old 01-21-2020, 05:23 PM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
Nor should they be. As tragic as those incidents are, they are NOT examples of overpenetration. They are examples of dumbass gang scum spraying bullets in every direction that didn't hit their intended targets. Take down the gangbangers and that kind of crap won't happen.
These rounds had exited the perps before killing the bystanders.
Caliber wasn't reported by the news, nor if they were from a long gun or not
Plenty more examples of misses hitting bystander though, many, many more.
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  #166  
Old 01-21-2020, 09:22 PM
Tenagain Tenagain is offline
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Originally Posted by Bubble Head View Post
Why bother with hollow points or ball for defensive purposes? Someone mentioned Lehigh earlier, but I think Underwood is a slightly better buy. I carry Xtreme Defender +P in 9mm for personal carry and .45acp for home defense. I've seen some testing done with 9mm and it was highly impressive, so I doubt that .45 would suck for some odd reason.
I'm not quite sold on the Xtreme Defenders for high horsepower 10mm or heavy .45. I do use them in .32 and .380. I will also be switching over my 9mm SD ammo to the Xtreme Defender. Wish they made them in 9x18.
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  #167  
Old 01-22-2020, 06:44 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
That's it in a nutshell. We could eliminate the problem in a couple of days, nationwide. But, the people in charge don't have the backbone to do so because it would be a bloody, brutal, nasty business. All the bleeding hearts would be gnashing their teeth, rending their clothes, and wringing their hands. We'd have to bury a bunch of a thugs, criminals, and gang bangers, but so what? Rabid dogs get put down, or the disease spreads.
Those same “bleeding hearts” would also be freeing jailed douche bags at the same rate the others were being “taken care of”. Soon, the streets would be free again and the jails would be empty. Penalties would be so high for violating the law that crime would be almost non existent. Work camps, hard labor, chain gangs.....ya get what you asked for. Inhumane you say?? Act like an animal, expect to be treated like one......then I woke up, it’ll never happen. Since 1985, the rate of incarceration has skyrocketed. When you think about it, just as many are getting out as are going in. The population of rats in our streets is out of hand. Time to call Rid A Pest!
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  #168  
Old 02-11-2020, 01:29 AM
Slattin Slattin is offline
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The thought of RN going through and potentially hitting something behind is enough for me to not use RN except for plinking. I primarily keep HP for home defense, but hopes that I never have to use them.
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