What's wrong with idpa? - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-05-2019, 06:59 PM
ccwlaw ccwlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 102
What's wrong with idpa?

I just read in the blue press about another new pistol organization called action shooting international and their hand sized championship. What is it about idpa that causes these organizations to spring up touting relaxed rules and the use of guns real people carry?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-05-2019, 10:40 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,157
I've been reading about ASI for some time now.
As you say, there is interest in simpler rules.
IDPA rules of engagement are very prescriptive.
USPSA is freestyle shooting with complicated scoring.
There are lots of local matches that pick and choose. Mostly freestyle shooting with time plus scoring.
In my theater of operation there are four types of action match, USPSA, IDPA, and two different home grown systems.
I am just as glad to not be in GADPA space, that scoring makes my head hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2019, 07:38 AM
Ricky T's Avatar
Ricky T Ricky T is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Age: 57
Posts: 13,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I am just as glad to not be in GADPA space, that scoring makes my head hurt.
Hehehe
__________________
Liking a Glock is a Version of Stockholm Syndrome. Nobody likes it but they get used to it in time.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 11-05-2019, 10:42 PM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,607
I think it really comes down the local clubs hosting matches, and the volunteer base that supports it. Their interests essentially drive what events are shot.
__________________
Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:23 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,704
What's wromg with IDPA....?

The premise for IDPA is sound. It is an action shooting match based on scenarios that could really happen when carrying a concealed weapon.

The biggest problem I have found with IDPA is the stage designs. Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.

At my local match last month, we had a stage design where the shooter had to wear their concealment garment, the loaded gun holstered, while seated on a bar stool close to a wooden table top/shooting bench. The shooter had to start the stage with hands flat on the table, and their feet were not allowed to touch the ground....all shooting was done while seated on the bar stool. If I were in a real shoot out situation, sitting on a bar stool, I would get off the bar stool while drawing my gun, and use the table as cover.....the idea of shooting 18 rounds while sitting upright on a bar stool with my upper body totally exposed, is in my opinion, a scenario that would never really happen in an actual real defensive shooting, so the premise of the stage design is flawed.

When the buzzer sounded, I slipped my hand inside my cover garment, drew my gun but being careful to avoid the muzzle sweeping my thigh. Before I even fired a shot, the SO stopped me, and said I swept my knee....! I don't think I did, but you can't argue with an SO that has made a DQ on a safety call, and there was no way to prove or disprove the SO's call.....I left the match quite angry, and was having a good match until I was DQ'd.

All of this could have been avoided by avoiding the stage design of sitting on a bar stool with a loaded and holstered gun.....since the table top was already in front of the bar stool, it would have been best to start with the loaded gun on the table or in a box on the table to avoided any safety issues. Out of the 75+ shooters that attended, quite a fee shooters were DQ'd on the stage, and a better stage design could have prevented this while still providing a good stage...…

When I draw my holstered gun, my finger never enters the trigger guard until I am extending the gun toward the target and at the same time, I click the thumb safety off of my STI 2011 gun when the gun is level and I am extending the gun...… I don't think I actually swept my knee....but if the SO's and Match Director knew it was a safety issue when drawing from a seated bar stool.....set up the stage design to prevent any safety issues and possible DQ's...….it is not rocket science!

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 11-06-2019 at 06:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-06-2019, 02:40 PM
AndyC's Avatar
AndyC AndyC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 55
Posts: 6,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
The biggest problem I have found with IDPA is the stage designs. Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.
Yep. I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section. I've done this stuff for real, so they can shove their dumb theories and their game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
I used to shoot both disciplines, and in my humble opinion, IDPA takes itself way too seriously, and USPSA shed the 'P' a long, long time ago
Yep.
__________________
My Iraq Pics

Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club

Last edited by AndyC; 11-06-2019 at 02:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-06-2019, 03:43 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
In some ways now it's better than ever before and in other ways, it's worse. Fault lines eliminated the subjective cover calls, so that's a major plus.

I shot three IDPA majors this year (trying to win Walther contingency money, mission accomplished) and enjoyed all of them. I shot one local match at my home club, which is the most well attended club in the area, and it was TERRIBLE. Your enjoyment of the match is really really dependent on the match director and the "flavor" of the stage designs.

The one second per point down thing makes it really boring to watch or shoot though. In "real life" I would NEVER shoot a perp that slowly. My recent force on force experience just 100% reinforces that.

I'll shoot more IDPA next year, but again, only to win that cash. It's USPSA for me. Scoring is not complicated, but you can't do it in your head. Hard to divide 149 by 18.23 without a calculator, but that's why EVERY club uses tablet scoring now. It's a requirement.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-06-2019, 03:46 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Yep. I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section. I've done this stuff for real, so they can shove their dumb theories and their game.

They don't have that rule anymore. As long as you are not exposed to any unengaged targets, you can reload, anywhere. Even on the move and not behind cover.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-11-2019, 07:47 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The South
Posts: 8,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section.
What, you changed a mag while behind cover instead of having an unloaded weapon out in the open where the bad guys can see your predicament and prosecute you as an unarmed target at their leisure?

Except it is a game that is supposed to help train defensive firearm use-with examples like that one has to wonder.

I went to the range with some folks who were pretty competitive in some of these games and while I really enjoyed the practice session (they were having fun and keeping safety first. They were an experienced group that outshot me though I was hanging in there and they were very supportive of my efforts).

Later I started looking at the rules and the schedules (I'm in aviation and the skeds were problematic). I'd like to find something that is run more like a group training event than having so much of it being about the score...

If it is about practical and/or defensive shooting it has to encourage doing things the way that would best insure one's own person not being perforated in a gunfight. You know, like getting off a bar stool or reloading under the available cover.
__________________
The Second Amendment-America's Homeland Security!

Last edited by Capt. Methane; 11-11-2019 at 07:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:01 AM
4110mm 4110mm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
... I don't think I actually swept my knee....
Of course you didn't. I do like the safety and gun handling skills these IDPA stages taught me. There is always a good deal of time spent at the walk through where potential safety traps are, opening doors, retreating, changing directions. Swiping when sitting on a chair is a classic and that needs to be learned.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:01 PM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NC
Posts: 10,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.
I'm under the impression that causing procedural errors is the goal of stage design...
__________________
TB., NC
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:47 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,704
IDPA and stage designs......

IMHO, poor stage designs are the weak link in IDPA. Imagine a new competitor taking a two hour round trip to shoot a local IDPA match, only to be disqualified for a safety issue caused by a stage design that could have been better!

I don't understand why IDPA does not have a website that keeps "good" and successful stage designs in a database, so all clubs around the world have an option to use and download them. I know USPSA has classifier stage designs that can be used and downloaded.....

Since some stage designers do a much better job than others, it might be a good idea to have access to good stage designs available from the IDPA headquarters..... IMHO, it is time to make improvements so IDPA clubs will be able to get/download good stage designs, rather than inventing them each time they have a local match... I have heard IDPA is not growing with new memberships in the U.S., but I can not substantiate that claim.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:30 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,365
Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:50 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,704
The rules suck....

One rule I have never understood:

When conducting a tac reload, you have to retain a mag with any rounds remaining in the mag, otherwise you will earn a 3 second PE penalty...…

IDPA shooters know there is not more than 18 "required" shots on any IDPA stage design. Depending on the gun division, the ESP and Production divisions allow ten round mags with 10+1 in the gun to start, and two spare 10 round mags on their shooting belt.....a total of 31 rounds when starting cocked and locked.....

I say let the shooter drop any mag at any time with or without rounds remaining in the mag..... it is up to the shooter to decide when and where they feel it is necessary to make a reload.....and if they run out of ammo, they may take a huge penalty on misses or targets that were not engaged.... IDPA is a game....and seldom has realistic scenarios for defensive shooting. The only good thing about shooting IDPA is it may allow good and improved gun handling skills!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-06-2019, 08:28 PM
RickB's Avatar
RickB RickB is offline
1911 Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Not Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 21,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
One rule I have never understood:

When conducting a tac reload, you have to retain a mag with any rounds remaining in the mag, otherwise you will earn a 3 second PE penalty...
!
Without any rounds? Probably the most "realistic" rule in the entire book; in a gun fight, you would not know you had a round in the chamber and an empty mag, no way you could count rounds like you do at a match, and you would not want to leave any of your limited ammo supply (again, realistic when the typical gun packer probably has one or none, when it comes to carrying reloads) on the ground, so you keep the mag.
__________________
If you're not shooting you should be moving. If you're not moving you should be reloading. If you're not shooting, moving, or reloading, you should be taping or picking brass. - Z.C.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-07-2019, 04:56 AM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NC
Posts: 10,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Without any rounds? Probably the most "realistic" rule in the entire book; in a gun fight, you would not know you had a round in the chamber and an empty mag, no way you could count rounds like you do at a match, and you would not want to leave any of your limited ammo supply (again, realistic when the typical gun packer probably has one or none, when it comes to carrying reloads) on the ground, so you keep the mag.
If you have more than one spare magazine, keeping an empty magazine is a hazard... it gives you the opportunity to spend precious time loading an empty magazine in the gun. If I have time to do a tactical load (which is only done when I think I have time), I have time to check the empty magazine for rounds and decide whether to stow it or discard it.
__________________
TB., NC
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:04 AM
RickB's Avatar
RickB RickB is offline
1911 Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Not Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 21,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke View Post
If you have more than one spare magazine, keeping an empty magazine is a hazard... it gives you the opportunity to spend precious time loading an empty magazine in the gun. If I have time to do a tactical load (which is only done when I think I have time), I have time to check the empty magazine for rounds and decide whether to stow it or discard it.
The point of the rule is not to keep an empty mag, it's to simulate not knowing the mag is empty. You wouldn't keep an empty mag, but there's no way to simulate removing the mag, checking to see if there are remaining rounds and then deciding to keep it or discard it, other than keeping every one.
__________________
If you're not shooting you should be moving. If you're not moving you should be reloading. If you're not shooting, moving, or reloading, you should be taping or picking brass. - Z.C.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:37 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.
I don't think it's so much the 'realism', because I don't think they actually have realism. I think it's that they did so much stuff purely to be different from USPSA. The change to the scoring a couple years ago confirms my belief that it's designed to appeal to old fat people who are offended by the idea of running around and shooting stuff quickly.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-12-2019, 05:49 PM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by motosapiens View Post
I don't think it's so much the 'realism', because I don't think they actually have realism. I think it's that they did so much stuff purely to be different from USPSA. The change to the scoring a couple years ago confirms my belief that it's designed to appeal to old fat people who are offended by the idea of running around and shooting stuff quickly.
At its inception the goal of IDPA was to have a more realistic defensive shooting game than USPSA.......Period.

IDPA was started by several big names who were not happy with the USPSA game being so....gamey.

I think were really saying the same thing though.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:56 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
At its inception the goal of IDPA was to have a more realistic defensive shooting game than USPSA.......Period.

IDPA was started by several big names who were not happy with the USPSA game being so....gamey.

I think were really saying the same thing though.
IDPA was started by several big names who had gotten old and fat and were offended that they couldn't keep up with the younger better shooters, either in the movement part, or in the shooting part.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:05 PM
liggett liggett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,834
I resemble that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motosapiens View Post
I don't think it's so much the 'realism', because I don't think they actually have realism. I think it's that they did so much stuff purely to be different from USPSA. The change to the scoring a couple years ago confirms my belief that it's designed to appeal to old fat people who are offended by the idea of running around and shooting stuff quickly.
I DO shoot both sports and on a regular basis. Along with the Wife. However, due to the fact that I and my Wife are members now of the above mentioned "old fat people" class, we prefer shooting IDPA because of less distance traveled DURING each stage.

I remember a USPSA match last summer where I was prepping my gear after getting out of the truck and a young buck asked to borrow my chair to change shoes. Yep, track spikes, STEEL, track spikes. I chuckled because I lost my soccer cleats 50 years ago. USPSA is basically a track meet with guns. If there is another sport comparison it would be biathalon, only shooting WHILE skiing!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:14 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by liggett View Post
USPSA is basically a track meet with guns. If there is another sport comparison it would be biathalon, only shooting WHILE skiing!
That's what people who aren't good at shooting like to pretend.

FWIW, even at 58, I am not fat. I am in better shape than the vast majority of uspsa competitors, but even when I set up a stage with a 150 yards of running (at an annual 1911 only outlaw match), I still get beat by a fat guy that shoots well. Running is alot less important than people think, and is typically just used as an excuse by people who suck at shooting too.

I personally like the more physically challenging stages because it gives me a reason to keep working out instead of getting old and fat and dying soon, but I've done enough of every kind of stage to realize it doesn't have any effect on the top finishers.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-05-2019, 05:48 PM
liggett liggett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by motosapiens View Post
That's what people who aren't good at shooting like to pretend.

FWIW, even at 58, I am not fat. I am in better shape than the vast majority of uspsa competitors, but even when I set up a stage with a 150 yards of running (at an annual 1911 only outlaw match), I still get beat by a fat guy that shoots well. Running is alot less important than people think, and is typically just used as an excuse by people who suck at shooting too.

I personally like the more physically challenging stages because it gives me a reason to keep working out instead of getting old and fat and dying soon, but I've done enough of every kind of stage to realize it doesn't have any effect on the top finishers.
Well, we both do both. And as far as being good at SHOOTING, I normally come close or do shoot the most A's of the match at our local USPSA match. At 69 with various repaired parts, I'm just not good as a track star.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-21-2019, 08:39 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by liggett View Post
I DO shoot both sports and on a regular basis. Along with the Wife. However, due to the fact that I and my Wife are members now of the above mentioned "old fat people" class, we prefer shooting IDPA because of less distance traveled DURING each stage.

I remember a USPSA match last summer where I was prepping my gear after getting out of the truck and a young buck asked to borrow my chair to change shoes. Yep, track spikes, STEEL, track spikes. I chuckled because I lost my soccer cleats 50 years ago. USPSA is basically a track meet with guns. If there is another sport comparison it would be biathalon, only shooting WHILE skiing!
You don't HAVE to run. You can shoot and move at your own pace. It's nice to have a choice though. IDPA limits total movement on a stage to what now, 15 yards? They also limit shot difficulty by rule, to protect their fragile shooters.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:11 PM
FTG-05 FTG-05 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.
I only went to a couple IDPA matches but what I remember was it more of a memory test vs. a shooting match.

"Shoot target #1 twice, target #2 once, target #3 four times, and so on. It also made no sense to load my P226 with it's 15 round magazines with only 10 rounds. I forget the justification they had for it, but it came across as "roll my eyes" stupid.

My perception was the people in the matches to include the ROs and MDs were not as safety conscience as IPSC was. That was a bit unsettling.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:12 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved