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  #1  
Old 09-23-2019, 08:34 AM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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hollow point really needed?

in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2019, 08:38 AM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is offline
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Hollow points are gravy, nice to have, but they're vastly overrated in so many folks' minds. Hollow points don't make up for bad hits.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:41 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Well according to the FBI 9mm load a ball round of .45 is perfectly fine but may pen too far. Take that however you will
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  #4  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:10 AM
marlin39a marlin39a is offline
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I have always favored the 230 gr Truncated bullet in 45. At app. 850 FPS. Hits hard.
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  #5  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:42 AM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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No amount of tech will compensate for a bad hit. Even a mediocre round will USUALLY give decent results from a good hit. That's life in the big city. Go with what makes you feel comfortable and safe.
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  #6  
Old 09-23-2019, 01:13 PM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
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What is the point to HP? To make the bullet expand so it stops within the body, achieving two goals; avoiding over-penetration which could endanger others, and thus transferring all of its energy to the body, creating a better shock effect. The side effect is also good, where the energy transfer and bullet expansion create more damaging wounds, possibly resulting in quicker stops with fewer shots.
BUT, this expansion requires velocity. With the smaller calibers like .25, .32, .380 and 9mm MAK, it may very well be true that the FMJ round provides enough penetration to disable the assailant with less fear of over-penetration. I know that in my own 9mm MAK that I sometimes carry, I have changed from imported typical HPs to Hornady Critical Defense, which in this caliber is a more pointed bullet with a very small hollow point which is filled with a soft polymer. I believe the concept is to give the needed penetration as well as expansion.
One thing you should not forget is the military has always rated ammunition by penetration, which to them is the main attribute, and it is of extreme importance in defense loads too. I believe the concept of 'over-penetration resulting in shoot-through' is heavily over played in smaller-caliber defensive pistol ammo. Some hollow points might expand too readily, limiting effectiveness, particularly where heavy clothing might be in use. I want a round that is designed to penetrate and be effective for that small, lightweight pistol that is very sweet to carry and accurate with its fixed barrel.
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  #7  
Old 09-23-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?

The manufacturers are always looking for the next 'big thing' to promote that will make them money. Hollow points fall into that category. People have tried various forms of hollow point all the way back to the days of the buffalo hunters. They never caught on, for whatever reason. When SuperVel came along in the 70s, they tried again with a full court press. The rest is history, even though it took 30 years to work out all the kinks.



I've never thought much of hollow points. I've not seen any evidence that they are to be preferred over a good soft point or solid, especially when you take performance in the game fields into account. Sadly, none of the major makers put out a premium grade self defense round with a proper soft point or solid, so we're pretty much forced into using one of the top four or five hollow point loads. The closest I can get is either a Golden Saber Bonded or Critical Duty 220 +P.


All my handloads use lead RNFP (in .44 and .45) in the 240/250 weight range at about 900-1000 fps. Golden Saber Bonded or CD 220s in the 1911. In my considered opinion (based on a couple decades of observation) there is no advantage to a hollow point over a proper soft point or solid.
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2019, 01:52 PM
vortec vortec is offline
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Sadly, none of the major makers put out a premium grade self defense round with a proper soft point or solid, so we're pretty much forced into using one of the top four or five hollow point loads. The closest I can get is either a Golden Saber Bonded or Critical Duty 220 +P.
Winchester and Browning both put out a flat nose 230 grain solid in 45 ACP. Velocities for both rounds are in the 900 fps range. I know that other rounds, such as 10mm, 9mm, and 380 ACP can be had with flat nose hard cast solids. 357 and 44 can be purchased with soft flat nose (semi-jacked) bullets.

Are those the types of rounds you would like to see?
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Old 09-23-2019, 02:44 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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speaking of shoot throughs since a lot of people are concerned with that..... I've used a handgun in self defense and know a few others who have done so as well. Adding to this I've worked quite a few shootings of various nature. hollow points were used in mine and my co-workers, and in all the shootings I worked fmj was used when rounds were recovered (non-recovered rounds were of unknown profile/configuration).

not once were there any innocents hit by shoot throughs. plenty of unintended targets got hit from complete misses from bad guys doing drive by shootings, but in all the others there just weren't any people down range of the other shootings. bad guys tend to attack when there are no witnesses, and in the few cases I've read about regarding shoot throughs the rounds were found close by on the ground behind the intended target. I am not saying that there isn't a risk of a shoot through with fmj particularly in a large slow moving caliber such as .44spl or .45acp, I am suggesting that missing the intended target poses a far greater risk down range than any shoot through. I think the odds are with you.

that said, I am not suggesting or advocating fmj for smaller and or higher velocity rounds such as 9mm or .357 et cetera.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
speaking of shoot throughs since a lot of people are concerned with that..... I've used a handgun in self defense and know a few others who have done so as well. Adding to this I've worked quite a few shootings of various nature. hollow points were used in mine and my co-workers, and in all the shootings I worked fmj was used when rounds were recovered (non-recovered rounds were of unknown profile/configuration).

not once were there any innocents hit by shoot throughs. plenty of unintended targets got hit from complete misses from bad guys doing drive by shootings, but in all the others there just weren't any people down range of the other shootings. bad guys tend to attack when there are no witnesses, and in the few cases I've read about regarding shoot throughs the rounds were found close by on the ground behind the intended target. I am not saying that there isn't a risk of a shoot through with fmj particularly in a large slow moving caliber such as .44spl or .45acp, I am suggesting that missing the intended target poses a far greater risk down range than any shoot through. I think the odds are with you.

that said, I am not suggesting or advocating fmj for smaller and or higher velocity rounds such as 9mm or .357 et cetera.

That goes right along with the statement made by the FBI several years ago that people hit by shoot throughs is so small it is statistically nonexistant. Not something I worry about.
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  #11  
Old 09-23-2019, 02:45 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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It depends really on what your trying to do.

A lot of the sub calibers such as .380 and 9mm have a hard time getting the proper velocity NEEDED for expansion in short barrels. Some don't expand at all in a 4" barrel. However, a lot of the bullets for 380 don't have enough oomph to penetrate IF they open up.

Same goes for 180 grain bullets in 45 acp according to articles I have seen, the 180 can expand into a very pretty diameter, but have shallow penetration. but if that 180 FAILS to expand it has excellent penetration.

Flat points create tissue damage, and bear tooth discovered through testing that a 180 grain swc in a 357 at 1300 fps with .25 meplat will create the same wound damage as a 240 grain swc in a 44 magnum moving at 1300 fps with a .25 meplat.

As one ex told me, its ALWAYS better to bring more sausage to the party then is needed.
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:01 PM
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is offline
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As I read some of these posts it is almost as if some folks are stuck in the 1970's.

If you can't find a load that will reliably expand in a short barrel 9mm you aren't looking hard enough.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:14 PM
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As I read some of these posts it is almost as if some folks are stuck in the 1970's.

If you can't find a load that will reliably expand in a short barrel 9mm you aren't looking hard enough.



Explain to me why you need a bullet to expand? All it does is slow down penetration in real world encounters.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:40 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Explain to me why you need a bullet to expand? All it does is slow down penetration in real world encounters.
to make up for bad bullet placement? using bullets that are too small to begin with?

a lot of people mock the good old 38/200 load, but that bullet tumbles and does more permanent wound damage then a 9mm does.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:30 PM
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to make up for bad bullet placement? using bullets that are too small to begin with?

a lot of people mock the good old 38/200 load, but that bullet tumbles and does more permanent wound damage then a 9mm does.



Nothing makes up for bad placement, or too small to begin with. That's like closing the stable door after the horse gets out. The Brits used the .38-200 in the Webley MkVI. But, it wasn't the RN version like Remington loaded over here. It was a stubby fat bullet with a flat point. Not as good as the .455 but it did OK at close range.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:11 PM
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is offline
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Explain to me why you need a bullet to expand? All it does is slow down penetration in real world encounters.
Bigger holes bleed more. If you can get 13"-16" of penetration, and expand from .356 to ~.55+, then why not?
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:09 PM
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As I read some of these posts it is almost as if some folks are stuck in the 1970's.

If you can't find a load that will reliably expand in a short barrel 9mm you aren't looking hard enough.



If the 1970s works, why change? Just because it is 2020, doesn't make something that works obsolete.
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Old 01-10-2020, 08:17 PM
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If the 1970s works, why change? Just because it is 2020, doesn't make something that works obsolete.

Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:49 PM
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Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.
And we all know that using 62 grain bonded jacketed soft points will make a .223 Remington the equal of say .308 Winchester or 30-06 using jacketed soft points on deer or elk or moose or ruskies....
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:09 PM
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And we all know that using 62 grain bonded jacketed soft points will make a .223 Remington the equal of say .308 Winchester or 30-06 using jacketed soft points on deer or elk or moose or ruskies....

Yeah. I keep reading at the beginning of the hunting season each year that rounds like the .30-30 and .35 Remington are obsolete and not up to the task of taking the mighty whitetail deer. Funny how they keep going like the Energizer Bunny year after year. You could fill a large barrel with all the rounds that are "obsolete" and no longer effective.
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:15 PM
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Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.



I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:17 AM
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I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
One of my favorites to strap on occasionally is my S&W model 24-3 in the "obsolete" .44 spl. loaded with "obsolete" 240 gr. cast Kieth LSWC's with that nice big meplat. How's that for "old school"?
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:32 AM
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I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
You’re in Illinois!
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:10 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Pistol rounds all suck.......so make them suck as little as possible any way possible.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:29 PM
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In wintertime I carry FMJ in the 9mm's I have. Same with smaller calibers if I have to go smaller for concealment.
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