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  #1  
Old 11-06-2019, 02:08 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Why you need more than 10 rounds - Cleveland police shooting

This video of police taking down a rapist during an attack demonstrates a couple of things:

1. Why you need more than 10 rounds, unlike what liberals say. The police fired 11 rounds. It took the guy a while to go down.

2. Shot placement counts. I don't know how many rounds actually hit this guy, but if all 11 rounds of 9mm (I assume because the LEO had a Glock) hit the guy, I'm selling all my 9s tomorrow.

Here's the link.

Oh, and I was just joking about selling my 9s. The video shows how little effect there was on the guy. Sort of renders all the discussions over the years about a "one shot stop" a waste of time.
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Last edited by borderboss1; 11-06-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:12 PM
drail drail is online now
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Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:33 PM
HoraceSwaby HoraceSwaby is offline
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My local 2,000 man PD shoots 100 rounds per officer, per year. Anything more than that is on the individual officer.

Timers vs switches. When there is a hostage and the hostage taker has a gun, timer shots are of no use.

If you're reading this and haven't taken at least 1 day of instruction from a qualified instructor in the past year, you're failing your loved ones who depend on you.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drail View Post
Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
Excellent and right on the money.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:29 PM
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A few days ago in Florida a homeowner drove off several attackers with an AR-15. The one she actually shot still managed to run 200 yards before collapsing. Looking at this video it looks to me like the majority of the hits were peripheral judging by his reaction. Bullets aren't magic... they have to hit or disrupt something vital to do their job. Passing right though fatty tissue doesn't do anything except hurt like a bee sting.

Something also to keep in mind regarding double-stack defense guns... I suspect most gun carriers use the large capacity as an excuse to not have to carry a spare mag. But when the balloon goes up and you're suddenly excited and scared you're probably going to keep shooting until the gun stops running... meaning you're now out of ammo. At least with a single-stack you're more likely to carry a spare mag and thus not waste your entire complement of ammo on a single panicked burst of gunfire.
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Last edited by dsk; 11-06-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:08 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Interesting concept but I'll pass. Same reason as to why I won't carry a two-shot Derringer because it encourages making each round count.

No thanks.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:23 PM
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The point I'm making is... carry a spare mag even if your piece holds 20 rounds. Most people don't.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:24 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Shooting in unfavorable conditions -- darkness, moving BG, more than one BG, being just awakened from deep sleep by unusual noise, no corrective/range eyewear (due to only seconds available for SD response), no hearing protection, etc. -- does not always facilitate one's best marksmanship skills.

Even a person skilled at range condition marksmanship, may not always hit center-mass under time/place conditions oftentimes chosen by the BG(s).

More rounds might well be needed under such conditions. And some BGs, especially those amped up on drugs, can "take" a lot of punishment before abandoning an assault.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:34 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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What difference does it make?

If your skills and equipment, not to mention luck. If they are up to the task, then you should likely prevail. This is pretty well understood. Now if you are going to introduce other factors into the equation. Things like legislators restricting the options that people have with which to defend themselves. Then you are introducing a whole new dynamic into the situation.

This is precisely why the founding fathers of our nation made the determination from the get go that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed". You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:23 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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I count twelve shots before he goes down?? Then the two insurance shots.

The attacker is large framed, obviously determined, and task oriented. Placing enough shots on him center mass to interrupt the blood flow to his brain is going to take a bit. Never trust one or two shots no matter what caliber you carry.

I agree completely with dsk about carrying a spare magazine. No matter the capacity of your firearm. Over ninety percent of pistol stoppages can be fixed with a new magazine being inserted. So a spare not only allows insurance ammo but lets you fix almost all stoppages.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:58 AM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
The point I'm making is... carry a spare mag even if your piece holds 20 rounds. Most people don't.
I always carry a spare mag or two. Not because I might need the ammo. I do it because the magazine is the weakest link in the semi-auto functionality chain. If the mag fails at the wrong time, I want to be able to go to another one pronto.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:57 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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^^^
^^^

The excellent points made in multiple preceeding points as to the functional/reliability-support benefits of carrying a spare magazine (at least one) are likely as important, or maybe more important, than the capability need for more rounds (if the latter should be required).

Two different subjects, but both point towards the same best practice answer.

I'll guess that we're all in agreement on the premium importance of shot placement, but unless someone is absolutely confident in making really precise center-mass hits no matter what the circumstances might be, then there is good reason to have more capacity than the leftist gun-ban types propose as "reasonable". And there's no harm in choosing the most effective cartridge/caliber that we feel comfortable with, all things considered... whether that choice be 9mm, .45acp, 10mm, etc., or harder-hitting AR chamberings.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:01 AM
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ATTN: Gov. (nobody needs 10 rounds to kill a deer) Cuomo
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:19 AM
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Agree with the comments about shoot what you hit at - the most important thing (and gun that works of course :-)). Too much emphasis on maxing-out-speed is self defeating imo. Most SD drills are "stylized", bad guys aren't going to stand at attention in front of you while you do a Bill Drill into their center mass, and even if they do, a couple of hundred's of a second differences in split times is not going to be the key determinate of the outcome.

That said, if you can shoot a big powerful round on top of the above, it is a plus - how much is arguable and of course we've argued it ad infinitum :-).

That vid is very illustrative. The cop isn't far away, he is shooting at a reasonable speed but not maxing out, he had multiple hits (how many I can't tell)...Note the SB isn't standing up at attention like a target at the range, he is turning sideways, bending over and constantly moving. Much different than paper-punching where you can go nuts maxing out with speed. And even with this cop putting well skilled control fire on the SB he likely isn't hitting the 8" idpa circle with every round (and can't tell if he even it the 8" "circle" once), it is a much different dynamic, and why a bigger and more powerful round plays a part in this regard.

Accuracy, potent round, good speed...The first far outweighs the other two. I'm glad IDPA is using an 8" CM target circle these days to emphasis the importance on accuracy (but again it is stylized so it has limits in real life)...Speed is actually the variable which you can modulate most (within reason) to achieve accuracy with a potent round.

MO of course, but along the lines of how I choose my gun's, ammo, gear, and training.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:16 AM
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On a lighter note, the vid reminds me of the original black and white King Kong movie, ca. 1933, where they shoot ton's of small arm's fire at Kong with little effect. Amazing. FBI might go back to 10MM after seeing this vid ;-).
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:51 AM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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Originally Posted by borderboss1 View Post
This video of police taking down a rapist during an attack demonstrates a couple of things:

1. Why you need more than 10 rounds, unlike what liberals say. The police fired 11 rounds. It took the guy a while to go down.

2. Shot placement counts. I don't know how many rounds actually hit this guy, but if all 11 rounds of 9mm (I assume because the LEO had a Glock) hit the guy, I'm selling all my 9s tomorrow.

Here's the link.

Oh, and I was just joking about selling my 9s. The video shows how little effect there was on the guy. Sort of renders all the discussions over the years about a "one shot stop" a waste of time.
Even with an 8 round magazine, my .45 Government Model can only manage nine rounds, including one "up the spout."

But they're nine bad ass rounds.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:06 AM
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Also, big shout-out to the Cop, great job, looks to me he hit the animal several times in the torso (based on the body movements - but just guessing). Ether way he got the job done without anymore damage to the women...He waited as long as he could until the animal started pistol wiping the women. Hope the animal rot's in you know where.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
^^This^^

A couple large rounds on-target are far more effective than spraying rounds towards the target from a mini-caliber, large-capacity fire hose.
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:21 PM
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^^This^^

A couple large rounds on-target are far more effective than spraying rounds towards the target from a mini-caliber, large-capacity fire hose.
Agreed. My best friend was an Arkansas State Trooper years ago in Little Rock, and responded to a call involving a crazy. He and his partner were shooting .357 mags at the time, and the axe-wielding crazy on PCP threatened them after several commands to cease and desist. The perp absorbed 17 rounds of .357 as if it made no difference, at which point my best friend used a 12 ga. with 00 buck to end the encounter. Not germane in ALL cases, but demonstrates that amount of energy delivered matters greatly.
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:24 PM
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I think Cleveland PD et al needs to practice the Mozambique Drill. I do just that each week at ranges out to 25-yards, which is the max available.
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:20 PM
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The only solution to the stopping power question is a high-powered rifle or a shotgun. Nothing in a pistol caliber will guarantee rapid incapacitation. Not a 9mm, not a .45, not a 10mm. Anything that hits the target at under 2000fps will only create a crush cavity that affects the immediate area around the wound channel. If you want a one-shot stop you need to exceed the 2000-2200fps threshold and create a large stretch cavity that disrupts and destroys several times the amount of tissue damaged by the crush cavity alone.

Basically what that means is that if you're saddled by a pistol caliber your only friend is repeat hits in the center of mass, where the crush cavities will do the most good by impacting the human body's "engine". If you can't do that then it doesn't matter if you're using a 9mm with 18 rounds of capacity or not.
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:53 PM
Rick R Rick R is offline
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After the FBI Miami shooting the DOJ (?) shot a bunch of Jello, had people shoot at paper targets, compared different calibers and created a 3D computer man composed of 1cm x 1cm bits weighted as to how important each bit was to life. I had a copy of their findings once upon a time. One of the most overlooked take aways was that pistol bullets commonly destroy less than a pound of tissue. Choose your pound of flesh wisely, you can’t miss fast enough to win a gunfight. And hits that don’t destroy something vital are really “misses”.

Of course also in the same set of documents they assigned .380acp ball a negative wounding value, basically saying if you shot someone with a PPk they might feel better.

Handguns are carried because they’re handy. If memory serves 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. That number drops to 20% with rifles. Luckily Mr Godzilla in the video never got his gun into play as more than an impact weapon.

Last edited by Rick R; 12-10-2019 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:29 AM
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After the FBI Miami shooting the DOJ (?) shot a bunch of Jello, had people shoot at paper targets, compared different calibers and created a 3D computer man composed of 1cm x 1cm bits weighted as to how important each bit was to life. I had a copy of their findings once upon a time. One of the most overlooked take aways was that pistol bullets commonly destroy less than a pound of tissue. Choose your pound of flesh wisely, you can’t miss fast enough to win a gunfight. And hits that don’t destroy something vital are really “misses”.

Of course also in the same set of documents they assigned .380acp ball a negative wounding value, basically saying if you shot someone with a PPk they might feel better. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Handguns are carried because they’re handy. If memory serves 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. That number drops to 20% with rifles. Luckily Mr Godzilla in the video never got his gun into play as more than an impact weapon.
Exactly correct! In other words, only 20% of people shot with any hg round die. The interesting fact in that fact is that number INCLUDES suicide attempts.

The old worn comment about use you hg to get to your rifle, shotgun, bazooka, artillery is fine.....but most will never have that opportunity.

Moral of that is learn to place your shots with extreme precision.
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:53 AM
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Just returned from Gunsite 250 Defensive Pistol Class. As mentioned, the three instructors, all with extensive LEO and Military/Government experience stressed the same points, shot placement. All three instructors carried 9mm's. I had a Baer 1911 and the direction was to reload after two engagements so after 4-6 rounds I had to do a speed reload or tactical reload to avoid slide lock open during an engagement. My mags hold 8 rounds. Without correct shot placement, you can burn through some rounds. Others with 9's did not have to do a reload until 15 rounds were fired and sometimes no reloads were needed at all. Many instructors carried .45's and were dead accurate with them in all situations and distances, I am not at that level for sure!
Decided to get a new 9mm which holds 17-21 round mags for this reason. One in the weapon and at least one extra.
One instructor shared a example where it took 12 rounds (all hits) to bring down a 400 lb "very determined" assailant.
Shot placement/accuracy over caliber.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:57 AM
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He may have continued to stand after multiple hits but he was dead on his feet. He was unable to do anything as his brain started loosing blood and oxygen. He staggered forward in a complete fog and was on auto pilot for a few seconds before he dropped like a sack of potatoes. No shots were fired that suddenly took him down.

Not arguing, just my read on what I saw. Also, short of a brain bucket shot, this is going to be typical of even a heart shot on a determined subject.
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