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Old 02-08-2020, 07:08 AM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Remembering William T. Sherman on his 200th birthday

For those that are interested.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog..._birthday.html
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Old 02-08-2020, 12:28 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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The guy should have been tried for war crimes.

If Lincoln had not been killed a mere six days after Appomattox, he might have been. Unfortunately the only officer tried and convicted of war crimes was the Swiss educated doctor that was the commanding officer at Andersonville.

I wonder how many of these social justice warriors know who Nathan Bedford Forrest was?
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Old 02-08-2020, 01:05 PM
havanajim havanajim is online now
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
If Lincoln had not been killed a mere six days after Appomattox, he might have been. Unfortunately the only officer tried and convicted of war crimes was the Swiss educated doctor that was the commanding officer at Andersonville.

I wonder how many of these social justice warriors know who Nathan Bedford Forrest was?
That's only if we view history through our modern, sensitive perspective, which is not a wise thing to do. He was ruthless in war because he had to be, not because he liked it. As with our method of dealing with the Japanese to end WWII, if not done, the war would likely have gone on and on, inflicting more death and destruction for who knows how long? Would it be done today? No, of course not. We think ourselves more civilized and above total war. But, as you see with our involvement in the Middle East, restraint brings with it perpetuation. We are now on year 19!!!!!! Can you imagine what would have been left of the South after an engagement half as long as that? Total war is nasty, but it's quicker, and less costly than attrition. Ideals of sensitivity and restraint are privileges afforded to those who read the histories, not to those doing the bleeding and the dying while making the history.
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Old 02-08-2020, 01:46 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
That's only if we view history through our modern, sensitive perspective, which is not a wise thing to do. He was ruthless in war because he had to be, not because he liked it. As with our method of dealing with the Japanese to end WWII, if not done, the war would likely have gone on and on, inflicting more death and destruction for who knows how long? Would it be done today? No, of course not. We think ourselves more civilized and above total war. But, as you see with our involvement in the Middle East, restraint brings with it perpetuation. We are now on year 19!!!!!! Can you imagine what would have been left of the South after an engagement half as long as that? Total war is nasty, but it's quicker, and less costly than attrition. Ideals of sensitivity and restraint are privileges afforded to those who read the histories, not to those doing the bleeding and the dying while making the history.
Oh, what he did- or allowed to be done- was not out of military necessity, but of a desire for vicious, punitive vengeance. The Union army, with the blessing of Sherman, raped, pillaged, plundered, and burned its way through the South. The utter destruction of private, non military residences and facility- after stealung everything of value that could be carted off, was a crime by any standard... so was the wholesale rape and murder of anyonethey encountered, resisting or not... however, when you're on the winning side, people look the other way.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:24 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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This is entirely correct.

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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Oh, what he did- or allowed to be done- was not out of military necessity, but of a desire for vicious, punitive vengeance. The Union army, with the blessing of Sherman, raped, pillaged, plundered, and burned its way through the South. The utter destruction of private, non military residences and facility- after stealung everything of value that could be carted off, was a crime by any standard... so was the wholesale rape and murder of anyonethey encountered, resisting or not... however, when you're on the winning side, people look the other way.
General Sherman showed a blatant disregard for humanity in the plainest sense. And allowed blatant criminal behavior to continue unchecked under his command.

As for the Japanese so alluded to. Once what needed to be done was done. Insofar as the subjugation of the Japanese homeland, which actually saved a tremendous number of lives. This arguably on both sides. General McArthur ordered that all Japanese civilians were to be treated with a modicum of respect.

In return, two generations later all during my extensive travels in Japan. I found myself afforded a great deal of respect from Japanese subjects of all walks of life.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:33 PM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Allow me to point out that, according to the Union theory of the war, the South was not allowed to secede. That means that all the Southerners living in their homes were still citizens of the United States, with all the protections afforded to them by the Constitution.
Sherman's atrocities were committed on non-combatant US citizens, without any due process. He swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I judge him accordingly.
Lincoln destroyed the Constitution to save the Union, when the Constitution was the only thing about the Union that was worth saving.
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:32 PM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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I am of the opinion that Lincoln was the worst president ever. I have no use for him or Sherman. They both should have been hung. If you disagree that is fine but consider this. Before the Civil War the states were more powerful than the Federal Government. The huge wasteful, all encompassing Federal Government we have today is the end result of what Lincoln did. I am not saying slavery was not an issue. It was what was used to get the common people to fight but I do not believe that is what the war was really fought over. Wars are not fought for noble & high minded reasons they are fought over money & power.
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:38 PM
UncleEd UncleEd is offline
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Confederate Gen. Johnston, who opposed Sherman
in Georgia and South Carolina, bore him no ill will
and honored him at his funeral.

Time for so many of you to get over it.
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:45 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Confederate Gen. Johnston, who opposed Sherman
in Georgia and South Carolina, bore him no ill will
and honored him at his funeral.

Time for so many of you to get over it.
Get over what....? That a US military officer not only sanctioned crimes against humanity and war crimes- even by mid 19th century standards, or that such a man is celebrated as a hero by the historically illiterate?
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:48 PM
JMJ1015 JMJ1015 is offline
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Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
Confederate Gen. Johnston, who opposed Sherman
in Georgia and South Carolina, bore him no ill will
and honored him at his funeral.

Time for so many of you to get over it.
Get over what. I didn't say I was angry. I merely expressed my opinion. I long ago accepted what Sherman & his ilk were & that the outcome of the Civil War led to a humongous Federal Government that was not at all what the founders wanted. Nothing I can do about it. I will never like it though.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:03 PM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Get over what....? That a US military officer not only sanctioned crimes against humanity and war crimes- even by mid 19th century standards, or that such a man is celebrated as a hero by the historically illiterate?
I think both sides committed the same acts, and to a similar degree. This was at a time when a war was still a war, with the Civil War being one of the bloodiest, 80+ years prior to the Geneva Conventions. The U.S had a population of roughly 32 million then, and 600,000 died in the War, nearly 2%. That doesn't count the maimed. If the post-war combatants were able to generally look one another in the eye, there's certainly no one here better able to judge the times and events.
Some of my ancestors lived in the poorest part of Missouri during the war, and the populace was divided nearly 50/50 North and South. The county seat was burned to the ground 3 times during the war, by the locals. Sherman was no where around. I have 5 brothers in my family tree, one was my gg grandfather. All 5 enlisted. Two came home. General Nathan Bedford Forrest is also in my tree, although no direct relative.
L.

Frankly, I would've rather not posted this than create some big turmoil. That wasn't my intent.
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Last edited by L.E.; 02-08-2020 at 05:24 PM.
  #12  
Old 02-08-2020, 05:22 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post

Time for so many of you to get over it.
Not so easy considering the country suffers more and more as a result of the insanity of the Reconstruction and how Southerners and their culture are still under attack from the Left in an almost genocidal fashion.
  #13  
Old 02-08-2020, 05:27 PM
Plaidad Plaidad is offline
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The writer of this article is confused about the reasons for the war. Early in the article he says that the war was about slavery, and a few paragraphs later he says that Sherman was fighting to preserve the Union.

I believe that emotionally, people want to think of the war as a crusade for freedom.

However, the facts don't really bear that out. Even Lincoln said that he would keep slavery to preserve the Union. If the northern states merely wanted to be rid of slavery, they could have let the southern states secede and said good riddance. The war was fought because the northern states did not accept the southern states claiming the right of secession. This was partly from a desire to preserve the existing government and partly from not wanting to lose the economic benefit of the cash crops (cotton and tobacco) that the south produced.

But history is written by the winners, and a righteous crusade sounds much better than economic self interest and preservation of the political status quo.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:28 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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I think both sides committed the same acts, and to a similar degree. This was at a time when a war was still a war, with the Civil War being one of the bloodiest, 80+ years prior to the Geneva Conventions. The U.S had a population of roughly 32 million then, and 600,000 died in the War, nearly 2%. That doesn't count the maimed. If the post-war combatants were able to generally look one another in the eye, there's certainly no one here better able to judge the times and events.
Some of my ancestors lived in the poorest part of Missouri during the war, and the populace was divided nearly 50/50 North and South. The county seat was burned to the ground 3 times during the war, by the locals. Sherman was no where around. I have 5 brothers in my family tree, one was my gg grandfather. All 5 enlisted. Two came home. General Nathan Bedford Forrest is also in my tree, although no direct relative.
L.

Frankly, I would've rather not posted this than create some big turmoil. That wasn't my intent.
Nothing wrong with differing opinions... reasonable people can disagree...
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:31 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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Frankly, I would've rather not posted this than create some big turmoil. That wasn't my intent.
We are just now forming up the lynch mob. I had no dog in that fight, then or now. My mother's "kin folk" were all in Canada back then trapping furs. And My father's "kin folk" did not come over from county Cork until a wee past 1900.

Good, bad, or otherwise. Civil wars are always the worst.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:36 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Plaidad View Post
The writer of this article is confused about the reasons for the war. Early in the article he says that the war was about slavery, and a few paragraphs later he says that Sherman was fighting to preserve the Union.

I believe that emotionally, people want to think of the war as a crusade for freedom.

However, the facts don't really bear that out. Even Lincoln said that he would keep slavery to preserve the Union. If the northern states merely wanted to be rid of slavery, they could have let the southern states secede and said good riddance. The war was fought because the northern states did not accept the southern states claiming the right of secession. This was partly from a desire to preserve the existing government and partly from not wanting to lose the economic benefit of the cash crops (cotton and tobacco) that the south produced.

But history is written by the winners, and a righteous crusade sounds much better than economic self interest and preservation of the political status quo.
As with most wars, economics was a driving factor. The "right" of secession wasn't really an issue...The North couldn't let the South secede. Northern industry was significantly dependent upon Southern resources- primarily cotton to feed the textile mills. Without Southern cotton, the bulk of the Northern economy would collapse.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:40 PM
DC_boffin DC_boffin is offline
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:00 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Tim Burke View Post
Allow me to point out that, according to the Union theory of the war, the South was not allowed to secede. That means that all the Southerners living in their homes were still citizens of the United States, with all the protections afforded to them by the Constitution.
Sherman's atrocities were committed on non-combatant US citizens, without any due process. He swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I judge him accordingly.
Lincoln destroyed the Constitution to save the Union, when the Constitution was the only thing about the Union that was worth saving.
Governor Blackface probably has a portrait of Sherman in his bedroom and has visions of doing the same things to the Constitution loving citizens of Virgina.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:17 PM
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...I wonder how many of these social justice warriors know who Nathan Bedford Forrest was?

Now tell us who Forrest said was the best Confederate general.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:35 PM
wccphd wccphd is offline
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William T. Sherman was the first domestic terrorist in the US (or CSA). He was just as ruthless or perhaps moreso toward Native Americans after 1865.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:37 PM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Now tell us who Forrest said was the best Confederate general.
I'm listening. A factoid that always stuck in my head was the 'origin' of Arlington National Cemetery. Politics seem to have always been a bitch.

And thanks, guys. Definitely interesting hearing everybody's viewpoint.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:52 PM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:57 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I am thinking probably Longstreet.

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Now tell us who Forrest said was the best Confederate general.
But I am sure that you will correct me in your usual abrasive fashion.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:02 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Originally Posted by L.E. View Post
I'm listening...
Quote:
"He's the biggest man in the lot. If we'd had more like him, we would have licked the Yankees long ago."
Gen'l N.B. Forrest CSA on Gen'l. Richard Taylor CSA.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:19 PM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Didn't Forrest enter the war as a private?
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