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  #126  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:57 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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You can argue about rule changes all day long, but that isn't the reason most of us who quit going to matches did so. When part of the reason you compete is for enjoyment and personal improvement, and the other part is that improving enough to win a match once in awhile against 50 other competitors, it gets decidedly annoying when a bunch of guys show up with equipment that gives them an advantage and automatically eliminates 80% of the competition before the first shot is fired. It no longer is a test of personal skill using your every day carry gun. It becomes a test of who can afford to spend the most to get a specially set up holster or gun that gives you a speed advantage over everybody else.


We had a couple of guys who used to show up with 5 shot snubbies. These were older guys, but they were exceptionally good shots, and even those of us who shot 1911s and were pretty good with them, always got nervous because we knew we had our work cut out for us against them. But the guys with the fancy rigs and race guns gained enough advantage on the speed side that they often ended up beating the better shots who didn't have those fancy rigs. The snubby guys just quit coming. There's no point in competing when you start out behind due to equipment issues. They knew they were already at a disadvantage by using a 5 shot snubnose gun, compared to those of us with autos, but they were still competitive due to experience and being better shots overall. But then add speed disadvantages on top of that, and they were just wasting ammunition.


I used to get ribbed by the wonder-9 guys who shot the high cap 9mm autos because of my 'old fashioned' single stack .45 1911. I gave it right back and then made them eat their words by being a better competitor. But I was shooting a basically stock 1911. I loaded my own ammo and it was better than the cheap store bought junk a lot of them shot, and I practiced on off match weekends with magazine swaps and other things. I got to be a lot better than most of them because I was willing to put in the time at it. But when winning a match often came down to a few seconds or less affecting the final score, the guys who picked up two, three, or four seconds on some of the scenarios because of equipment advantages made it obvious that we couldn't win unless we spend a bunch of money that a lot of us couldn't afford to do. By the time I'd been at it ten years, a lot of the events ended in scores so close that ties had to be resolved in shootoffs. An advantage on the clock often offset accuracy and gave the win to the guys with speed rigs. A half second isn't much, but its enough to change who wins the match. In my case, all my spare cash went to ammo to make sure I had enough to practice with, and top quality to compete with. I couldn't afford the hundreds needed for pistol upgrades and fancy holsters and belts.
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  #127  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:50 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Revolver reloads excepted, most of the perceived equipment advantages are just that, a perception. 10 years ago, everyone "knew" a double action auto was a disadvantage. Now everyone "knows" you need a heavy double action gun to be competitive.

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  #128  
Old 01-18-2020, 01:43 PM
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Well-conceived competitive "divisions" were adopted to preclude winning due to equipment; high-capacity guns are in a different division from single stacks, revolvers are in their own division, etc.

When I started shooting USPSA, there were only two divisions, and I was definitely being beaten due to equipment differences, but when Revolver, Production, and Limited 10 divisions were introduced, the playing field was leveled to a great extent.

Sometimes, the divisions are not well conceived, such as IDPA putting 10mm pistols in the "9mm division", or striker-fired pistols with short-resetting 3# triggers in divisions different from hammer-fired guns with the same trigger, but the concept is a good one.

Since this thread started with an inquiry along the lines of "have new games sprung-up because IDPA isn't agile enough to give everyone what they want" , I think there has to be a distinction between shooting sports that are highly competitive, and those that are for entertainment; if you are spending a day at the range with friends, shooting your favorite gun, can you consider that a "win"?
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  #129  
Old 01-18-2020, 11:14 PM
tanner's owner tanner's owner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
.....I think there has to be a distinction between shooting sports that are highly competitive, and those that are for entertainment; if you are spending a day at the range with friends, shooting your favorite gun, can you consider that a "win"?
I agree with Rick on this. I shoot and work IDPA matches to have fun with a bunch like minded folks. Of course I want to shoot well and win my division, but that’s not my sole definition of success.
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  #130  
Old 01-19-2020, 05:23 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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What's wrong with IDPA....

Quote:
An advantage on the clock often offset accuracy and gave the win to the guys with speed rigs.
Since when did IDPA allow "speed rigs?" There are specific rules about using holsters, which are designed for practical shooting without the need of a "speed rig" like in the USPSA Open Division.
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  #131  
Old 01-19-2020, 08:40 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Since when did IDPA allow "speed rigs?" There are specific rules about using holsters, which are designed for practical shooting without the need of a "speed rig" like in the USPSA Open Division.
Go on Black Scorpion's website and look at their USPSA Limited, Production, etc. approved holster. Everyone in my club uses them for USPSA and IDPA. It is indeed a "speed rig." I have one and love it. If you are struggling to draw your gun from a tight, leather concealment holster in IDPA, you've lost. I don't think it subverts the intentions of IDPA, but it does stretch them a bit.

Last edited by bradsvette; 01-19-2020 at 08:49 AM.
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  #132  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:38 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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I doubt their Limited holster is acceptable by IDPA.
They do make an IDPA holster but it is on a Tek lok or similar and those are marginal on offset. Probably keeps the gun near enough my love handles, but a skinny shooter might not pass.
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  #133  
Old 01-19-2020, 11:53 AM
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"Speed" rigs are generally riding too low, are cut too low in front, and are adjustable to a muzzle-forward rake, which is not going to work for IDPA.

A holster designed to the limits of what the rules allow, which is what the Scorpion IDPA holster appears to be, is what a lot of people are using.
Blade-Tech, Comp-Tac - the two most popular brands - make similar stuff.
I used a Blade-Tech for years, but didn't like the (lack of) smell.
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  #134  
Old 01-19-2020, 12:40 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
You can argue about rule changes all day long, but that isn't the reason most of us who quit going to matches did so. When part of the reason you compete is for enjoyment and personal improvement, and the other part is that improving enough to win a match once in awhile against 50 other competitors, it gets decidedly annoying when a bunch of guys show up with equipment that gives them an advantage and automatically eliminates 80% of the competition before the first shot is fired. It no longer is a test of personal skill using your every day carry gun. It becomes a test of who can afford to spend the most to get a specially set up holster or gun that gives you a speed advantage over everybody else.


We had a couple of guys who used to show up with 5 shot snubbies. These were older guys, but they were exceptionally good shots, and even those of us who shot 1911s and were pretty good with them, always got nervous because we knew we had our work cut out for us against them. But the guys with the fancy rigs and race guns gained enough advantage on the speed side that they often ended up beating the better shots who didn't have those fancy rigs. The snubby guys just quit coming. There's no point in competing when you start out behind due to equipment issues. They knew they were already at a disadvantage by using a 5 shot snubnose gun, compared to those of us with autos, but they were still competitive due to experience and being better shots overall. But then add speed disadvantages on top of that, and they were just wasting ammunition.


I used to get ribbed by the wonder-9 guys who shot the high cap 9mm autos because of my 'old fashioned' single stack .45 1911. I gave it right back and then made them eat their words by being a better competitor. But I was shooting a basically stock 1911. I loaded my own ammo and it was better than the cheap store bought junk a lot of them shot, and I practiced on off match weekends with magazine swaps and other things. I got to be a lot better than most of them because I was willing to put in the time at it. But when winning a match often came down to a few seconds or less affecting the final score, the guys who picked up two, three, or four seconds on some of the scenarios because of equipment advantages made it obvious that we couldn't win unless we spend a bunch of money that a lot of us couldn't afford to do. By the time I'd been at it ten years, a lot of the events ended in scores so close that ties had to be resolved in shootoffs. An advantage on the clock often offset accuracy and gave the win to the guys with speed rigs. A half second isn't much, but its enough to change who wins the match. In my case, all my spare cash went to ammo to make sure I had enough to practice with, and top quality to compete with. I couldn't afford the hundreds needed for pistol upgrades and fancy holsters and belts.
This is satire, right?
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  #135  
Old 01-19-2020, 08:48 PM
markm markm is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
Go on Black Scorpion's website and look at their USPSA Limited, Production, etc. approved holster. Everyone in my club uses them for USPSA and IDPA. It is indeed a "speed rig." I have one and love it. If you are struggling to draw your gun from a tight, leather concealment holster in IDPA, you've lost. I don't think it subverts the intentions of IDPA, but it does stretch them a bit.
Yah that open holster wouldn't fly for IDPA, open holsters have too much drop and offset for the rules. That being said and having a couple of "speed rigs" other that mag placement I don't think they offer that much advantage holster wise, at least for me. I'm not looking for a sponsor.
All in all I do it for fun and if I can at least come in in the top 10% and beat a couple of PCC's with my SSP/ESP I'm happy.
The rules have changed it's true, like not having to move while shooting (I think that's a skill that should be developed for the D in IDPA) but everyone has the same rules in a division so I think it's fair. Is that what I'd do in a real D scenario, no, but the you do what you train being the only downside I can't see the harm. Besides from on day to the next I can't remember what I'm suppose to do anyway...
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  #136  
Old 01-21-2020, 07:52 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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IDPA and "9mm division?"

Quote:
Sometimes, the divisions are not well conceived, such as IDPA putting 10mm pistols in the "9mm division", or striker-fired pistols with short-resetting 3# triggers in divisions different from hammer-fired guns with the same trigger, but the concept is a good one.
IDPA does not have a 9mm gun division.....There are six divisions in IDPA: Custom Defensive Pistol (CDP), Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP), Stock Service Pistol (SSP), Stock Service Revolver (SSR), Enhanced Service Revolver (ESR) and Back-Up Gun (BUG). Each division is based on the type of pistol a competitor uses.

The IDPA rule book discusses the type and details for each gun division, and the allowable modifications.
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  #137  
Old 01-21-2020, 09:02 PM
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If you play the game, even dabble in it, you know that 9mm dominates SSP, ESP, CCP, and even BUG, and 10mm doesn't belong in any of them, when one of the sport's founding principles is the use of full-power ammunition.
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  #138  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:56 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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IDPA and 9mm division....

Quote:
If you play the game, even dabble in it, you know that 9mm dominates SSP, ESP, CCP, and even BUG, and 10mm doesn't belong in any of them,
Yes, the 9mm dominates many divisions, but it is not called "a 9mm division." I know an excellent shooter that shoots reduced .40S&W loads, with light 135 gr bullets, and he likes the soft and less snappy recoil of his load, and he also appreciates the wider bullet diameter, which may often hit a higher scoring perforation line in IDPA...…

Many BUG shooters like their .380acp guns in my area....
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  #139  
Old 01-23-2020, 10:02 PM
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I don't know of a .380 round that makes powerfactor in a 3" barrel?
There maybe choices beyond [email protected] and [email protected]?
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  #140  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:50 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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BUG gun division....

The barrel of a bug gun may be up to 3.5" in length. I have loaded the .380 acp cartridge with 115 gr. bullets, in my Colt .380 Government Model with a 3.25" inch barrel that left the muzzle at roughly 925 fps. With the 95 power factor for the BUG division, the bullet velocity from a 3.5" barrel needs to be a minimum of 826 fps., so it is entirely possible to make the PF by reloading if the .380 gun meets the criteria of the BUG division.....

My Lyman 50th edition reloading manual shows using a 3.75 inch test barrel, a 115 gr. JHP bullet using 4.5 grains of HS-6 had a muzzle velocity of 945 fps..... the Walther PPK with 3.3" barrel in .380 acp with a flush fit mag I believe should fit the criteria of a BUG gun....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-24-2020 at 06:57 AM.
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  #141  
Old 01-25-2020, 07:10 AM
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That's well over powerfactor, and WELL over what the boutique ammo makers offer; any idea about pressure?
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  #142  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:42 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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.380 reloads and pressure....

The Lyman 50th edition reloading manual shows the case pressure based on testing with a Universal Receiver with a 3.75" barrel. Using a 115 gr. bullet, all of the powder choices listed with max loads were in the 15K-16K cup pressure range.....and reloading manuals are usually more conservative when showing max powder charges.... When I reloaded for my .380 Colt GM model, I never used max pressure loads, and mainly used 231 powder.... I was merely showing that the .380 with the proper handloads is able to make the 95 PF for the BUG division.

I believe the reason why ammo makers do not offer very hot .380 loads is due to the fact that many .380 guns are blow-back designs, and not a locked breech design like the Colt GM .380.....a hot .380 load with a small blow-back slide may not work reliably.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-27-2020 at 09:24 PM.
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  #143  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:11 PM
FTG-05 FTG-05 is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.
I only went to a couple IDPA matches but what I remember was it more of a memory test vs. a shooting match.

"Shoot target #1 twice, target #2 once, target #3 four times, and so on. It also made no sense to load my P226 with it's 15 round magazines with only 10 rounds. I forget the justification they had for it, but it came across as "roll my eyes" stupid.

My perception was the people in the matches to include the ROs and MDs were not as safety conscience as IPSC was. That was a bit unsettling.
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  #144  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:51 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post

"Shoot target #1 twice, target #2 once, target #3 four times, and so on. It also made no sense to load my P226 with it's 15 round magazines with only 10 rounds. I forget the justification they had for it, but it came across as "roll my eyes" stupid.
You went to a piss poor IDPA match. Dont let that be your basis of all IDPA matches.
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  #145  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:05 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Contrary to present rules. Only one target may call for a different number of hits.
Ten rounds was The Law when IDPA was formed and they have stayed with it for consistency.
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  #146  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:35 PM
HoraceSwaby HoraceSwaby is online now
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Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
It also made no sense to load my P226 with it's 15 round magazines with only 10 rounds. I forget the justification they had for it, but it came across as "roll my eyes" stupid.
Don't tell this guy about USPSA Production rules.
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  #147  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
You went to a piss poor IDPA match. Dont let that be your basis of all IDPA matches.
You got that right.
The rules allow only one target per stage to have a round count different from the other targets, and I don't think I've ever shot such a stage where it wasn't the first target ("Engage T1 with six rounds while retreating to position two, then engage T2-T5 with two rounds each").

I think the reason for the 10rd limit is that it was the law, nation-wide, in 1996 when IDPA was introduced.
Also, it encourages "practicing" of reloads, which is a worthwhile defensive skill.
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  #148  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:31 AM
mdellis49 mdellis49 is offline
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OP, nothing is wrong with IDPA. It's a game. I approach it the same way as golf. I pit myself against myself first, the course second and the field third. Am I getting better? Did I perform as well as I could? How did I do against the scenarios? And finally how did I do against my fellow competitors? As long as I had a good day and had fun the last means very little to ME.
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  #149  
Old 01-30-2020, 09:12 AM
drail drail is offline
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I tend to believe that IDPA was created by the manufacturers of all those vests. Ya'll look like a photographer's convention..... Being required to shoot the gun empty and pocket empty magazines kind of ruined it for me as well.

Last edited by drail; 01-30-2020 at 09:14 AM.
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  #150  
Old 01-30-2020, 09:17 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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You don't have to pocket empty mags or be required to shoot the gun empty though
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