Odd 45 Case bulge - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2020, 11:20 PM
Top Cover Top Cover is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Idaho
Posts: 127
Odd 45 Case bulge

Shot a load I got from the Hornady book 10th edition and because I had prior experience with Unique with Hornady 230 FMJ bullets I just reduced the 6.6 max to 6.4. I did not notice any excessive recoil. However when resizing the brass I noticed this slight bulge in a definite U shape that I am hoping my pics do justice, and get some opinions on what the heck this is. The black case is a Browning case w the black nickel plate, the standard brass case is a Federal. Both were once fired with this reload.


Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
.45 ACP Case bulge 2.jpg   .45 ACP Case bulge.jpg  

Last edited by Top Cover; 04-05-2020 at 11:21 PM. Reason: was going to add, but not necessary
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-05-2020, 11:27 PM
log man log man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Riverside County, CA
Posts: 14,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Cover View Post
Shot a load I got from the Hornady book 10th edition and because I had prior experience with Unique with Hornady 230 FMJ bullets I just reduced the 6.6 max to 6.4. I did not notice any excessive recoil. However when resizing the brass I noticed this slight bulge in a definite U shape that I am hoping my pics do justice, and get some opinions on what the heck this is. The black case is a Browning case w the black nickel plate, the standard brass case is a Federal. Both were once fired with this reload.


Thanks
I would be looking inside the chamber to see where this bulge/embossing is taking place, it is concerning.

LOG
__________________
Warning, do not remove any material from your pistol or any of it's parts if you do not know the result and it's consequences! .......it gun....gun dangerous...Email: [email protected]

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-06-2020, 12:21 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,938
^^

What Log said.

Also .2 is NOT 10% of 6.6. There's a reason the rule is 10% reduction to start. Every gun is slightly different.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:23 AM
subscriber subscriber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 5,221
It looks like your barrel's lower lug may be pulling away from the bottom of the barrel, taking the chamber floor with it. Hope I am wrong.

Look at this thread for comparison: https://www.1911forum.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=187083

__________________
You can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason their way into...

Last edited by subscriber; 04-06-2020 at 05:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-06-2020, 07:11 AM
drail drail is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 15,300
Now THAT'S a frightening photo......
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:13 AM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,065
Yep, definitely a fault in the chamber. New barrel required.
__________________
The Old Dominion
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:02 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 6,233
Saw something similar...

Quote:
Originally Posted by subscriber View Post
It looks like your barrel's lower lug may be pulling away from the bottom of the barrel, taking the chamber floor with it. Hope I am wrong.

Look at this thread for comparison: https://www.1911forum.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=187083

Saw this in a low mileage Taurus!

Smiles,
__________________
John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 04-06-2020 at 09:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:06 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,537
Happened to me. I sent it back to the maker who said it had been misfit but they replaced it anyhow.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:19 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Eastern West Virginia
Posts: 5,042
What details related to “misfit” did the maker offer? I would expect a response that listed what was done wrong...
Joe
__________________
1911
The original instant emergency response number.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:23 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,537
They provided no details. I only sent the broken barrel, not the whole gun.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-06-2020, 02:22 PM
Top Cover Top Cover is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Idaho
Posts: 127
416 Stainless seems to Be the Probelm

After doing some more research on 1911s it seems that 416 stainless barrels vs 17-4PH barrels is the issue. From what I am reading 17-4PH barrels are 50-70+% stronger and are acceptable form pressure vessels.

According to what I am reading American Society of Mechanical Engineers(ASME) doesn't approve of 416 in pressure vessels.

Thanks for the replies and the help. My battle is now with Sig since I can now see the slight pattern on the bottom of the chamber with a good light. So a replacement barrel will be in order.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-06-2020, 02:26 PM
Top Cover Top Cover is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Idaho
Posts: 127
Thanks for the Observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
^^

What Log said.

Also .2 is NOT 10% of 6.6. There's a reason the rule is 10% reduction to start. Every gun is slightly different.
I have used this load before with Unique that's why I used 6.4 this time, I never load max and always stay below after working up a load. I have now read where over time 416 stainless just fatigues thus not really ASME approved for this type of application.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:07 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,537
Most barrel makers use 416R which has less sulfur than 416 and a little molybdenum.
Type 410 would be better and something like 17-4 PH even better. I have a Wilson barrel out of 17-4 but they changed to 416R.

If it can hold a rifle round, it is not the choice of steel that is your problem in a .45.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:22 PM
log man log man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Riverside County, CA
Posts: 14,277
Would be telling to check to see that the lower lug was stopping the barrel against the VIS with a few thou under, or was the barrel stopping by link extension with the barrel hitting the frame bed?

LOG
__________________
Warning, do not remove any material from your pistol or any of it's parts if you do not know the result and it's consequences! .......it gun....gun dangerous...Email: [email protected]

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:49 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Cover View Post
I have used this load before with Unique that's why I used 6.4 this time, I never load max and always stay below after working up a load. I have now read where over time 416 stainless just fatigues thus not really ASME approved for this type of application.
Your still missing the point. Unless you work up a load in that exact gun you really can not say it's a safe load.

Every chamber/barrel is going to have different tolerances. More then one reloading article has been written about this. The exact same load in 10 different guns will give 10 different velocities.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-06-2020, 06:04 PM
subscriber subscriber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 5,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
...a safe load.
An unsafe load is likely to bulge the case at the feed ramp. A Dangerous load is likely to blow out the case at the feedramp. No evidence offered by OP to support this.

Also, what about the .45 Super? Doesn't that just have a thicker case web, that operates at much higher pressure? The front portion of the case is not thicker, and would transfer the pressure directly to the chamber wall in the area that is (probably) cracked in the OP's barrel.

That said, SIG might argue that there is no warranty for reloaded ammo...
__________________
You can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason their way into...

Last edited by subscriber; 04-06-2020 at 06:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:04 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by subscriber View Post
An unsafe load is likely to bulge the case at the feed ramp. A Dangerous load is likely to blow out the case at the feedramp. No evidence offered by OP to support this.

Also, what about the .45 Super? Doesn't that just have a thicker case web, that operates at much higher pressure? The front portion of the case is not thicker, and would transfer the pressure directly to the chamber wall in the area that is (probably) cracked in the OP's barrel.

That said, SIG might argue that there is no warranty for reloaded ammo...
And you Sir are missing the point of my discussion with the OP.

It's not about brass or how a case blows out. It's about the basic precautions most loaders, regardless of how many or how few rounds we've loaded, should follow.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:50 PM
subscriber subscriber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 5,221
Mark2734,

You are correct that safe load development practices should always be observed. Either -10% of max, or the listed minimum starting load should be observed, when any part of the system has changed; including a new gun, barrel, or any of the ammo components.

It is likely that the OP's barrel failure would have occurred eventually with almost any load. Considering the weak link in the 1911 pressure vessel system is the case web, if that does not bulge even slightly, there is no concern about an overload causing the damage to seen to the OP's barrel.

I agree that getting away with poor reloading practice once, should not be seen as encouragement to go ahead and blow up the next time. And when I say blow up, this will almost certainly be the case web in a properly fitted 1911. Blowing up the barrel via an overload will take some doing; unless there is also a squib bullet stuck directly in front of the chamber.

A case web failure has a tendency to fragment the grips and could absolutely damage the hand. More importantly, brass fragments thrown towards one's eyeballs is not going to do them any good. Even with eyepro.

I am more concerned about the OP continuing to shoot that gun, and particularly that barrel (with any ammo), than his risky reloads in a otherwise sound 1911. I did not notice you suggesting he stop shooting it. So, it seems that you are focused on reloading procedure; and being right. I am focused on obvious risk, and its most probably cause and mitigation. In this case, it is almost certainly the barrel material, manufacturing procedure or fitting method that is the primary factor. Shooting it with any load will contribute to its failure, as a secondary factor. Hotter loads will make it fail faster. Even if they are not overloads.

You bringing up the OP's non-standard load development suggests you think it may have contributed to the risky artifacts seen in his fired cases (else, why are you participating in this thread?). I provided logic that his loads were not over-pressure because of the total lack of bulging at the case web. You want to scare him straight, towards better load development. I want him to check his barrel for cracks and to stop shooting that gun, if there is any hint of trouble with the barrel. Because it will most likely blow up on him if he continues to use it; even with -10% loads. The latter is the real, imminent and obvious risk. As in, not theoretical or procedural.
__________________
You can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason their way into...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:04 PM
subscriber subscriber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 5,221
Consider what ruptured and what held, when a .300 Blackout round was fired from a .223 AR: https://rifleshooter.com/2019/08/ano...barrel-kaboom/

The case web let go. The barrel extension cracked. The bolt lugs are distorted. The carrier fractured. The upper receiver cracked.

Yet, surprisingly the barrel is undistorted (although I would not recommend using it again).

Yes, this a different system (operating at much higher pressure; with that exceeded due to the barrel obstruction). However, if everything else is OK, but the barrel cracked through the chamber, I would suspect the barrel integrity as primary factor here too. I would look hard for evidence of squib damage. And that looks different, depending on where the first bullet sticks down the barrel.

EDIT: Here is another occurrence of the above type of overload, with barrel damage not being obvious either: https://rifleshooter.com/2019/06/kab...-56-223-ar-15/
__________________
You can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason their way into...

Last edited by subscriber; 04-06-2020 at 10:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-07-2020, 01:05 AM
FrancescoP FrancescoP is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Northeast Italy
Age: 65
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Cover View Post
Shot a load I got from the Hornady book 10th edition and because I had prior experience with Unique with Hornady 230 FMJ bullets I just reduced the 6.6 max to 6.4. I did not notice any excessive recoil. However when resizing the brass I noticed this slight bulge in a definite U shape that I am hoping my pics do justice, and get some opinions on what the heck this is. The black case is a Browning case w the black nickel plate, the standard brass case is a Federal. Both were once fired with this reload.


Thanks
Seeing the position of the bulge and the normal appearance of the primer and the web zone I think not an overload but a defective barrel. Or a bullet stopped in the barrel just after the throat (but in this case the bulge should be ring shaped).

Last edited by FrancescoP; 04-07-2020 at 01:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-07-2020, 10:05 AM
log man log man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Riverside County, CA
Posts: 14,277
I agree that it probably isn't an over pressure problem, but either quality or not correctly installed and fitted barrel. Folks ask what can happen if the barrel hits the bed first and doesn't stop against the VIS, this is one of the possible results. Broken link another.

LOG
__________________
Warning, do not remove any material from your pistol or any of it's parts if you do not know the result and it's consequences! .......it gun....gun dangerous...Email: [email protected]

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-07-2020, 12:01 PM
Viper_29 Viper_29 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,571
Thread title change to: two guys argue about something that had nothing to do with the problem at hand.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-07-2020, 05:31 PM
subscriber subscriber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 5,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper_29 View Post
Thread title change to: two guys argue about something that had nothing to do with the problem at hand.
You can add, "with commentary about that, that also has nothing to do with the problem at hand".

What is you opinion about the case artifact and the OP's observed in-chamber defect?
__________________
You can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason their way into...
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-07-2020, 07:24 PM
log man log man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Riverside County, CA
Posts: 14,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by subscriber View Post
what is you opinion about the case artifact and the op's observed in-chamber defect?
[quote=log man;13117516]I agree that it probably isn't an over pressure problem, but either quality or not correctly installed and fitted barrel.

Folks ask what can happen if the barrel hits the bed first and doesn't stop against the VIS, this is one of the possible results. Broken link another.

LOG
__________________
Warning, do not remove any material from your pistol or any of it's parts if you do not know the result and it's consequences! .......it gun....gun dangerous...Email: [email protected]

Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-07-2020, 07:31 PM
Dan13 Dan13 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by log man View Post
Folks ask what can happen if the barrel hits the bed first and doesn't stop against the VIS, this is one of the possible results. Broken link another.

LOG
I was one of those folks. Thanks again for your information and getting me to modify my drop in USGI barrel to ensure this does not happen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:16 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved