vertical stringing- just my eyes or the ammo too? - 1911Forum
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  #1  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:56 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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vertical stringing- just my eyes or the ammo too?

I am trying to learn to shoot groups so that I can better compare the ammo I'm loading. The other day I had a crazy strung "group" (embarrassed to post it but a pic is worth lots of words) that was really tight horizontally but vertically strung over 3".

Is this just my inability to hold a consistent sight picture & attention, or should I check my scale?

Some days (depending on how the sun illuminates things) I really struggle with a clear sight picture and other days I struggle with seeing the target well. I think I remember this one being at the end of my trip as the sun was low. (shooting towards it) I shot several good groups earlier that day.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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  #2  
Old 04-05-2020, 01:02 PM
BLACKTAIL 8541 BLACKTAIL 8541 is offline
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Your inexperience. Grip and sight alignment.
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2020, 01:29 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
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What gun, distance ?
David
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  #4  
Old 04-05-2020, 01:34 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_root2000 View Post
What gun, distance ?
David
Gun is a DW commander, w/ stock, fixed sights @ 20 yds

(shooter is approaching 50, with degrading eyesight! ...lol)
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2020, 03:24 PM
tractor tractor is offline
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Did you Chronograph that string of shots?
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  #6  
Old 04-05-2020, 03:38 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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I knew a young moron that thought it would be a favor to his poor, always compressed magazine springs to stretch them out. After that the gun would always string the groups.
I'll never do that again...

My point is you could have a magazine with issues.
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  #7  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:08 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Consider that you are unintentionally not lowering your aim quite enough after each shot.
Next time try lowering then raise and aim at the middle of the bulls eye each time. Do not try making slight adjustment after each shot.
Goal is to shoot group so start from a new independent combination. Important aim the same way at the bulls eye. Do not chase your shots.
Since you were consistent horizontally, I guess you just did not align the sight the same way each subsequent shot.
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  #8  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:26 PM
yeti yeti is offline
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Tight bushing barrel causing springing?
Changed anything recently?
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:35 PM
GySgt 7291 GySgt 7291 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Gun is a DW commander, w/ stock, fixed sights @ 20 yds

(shooter is approaching 50, with degrading eyesight! ...lol)
Same here about the eyesight. Try using a pair of cheaters to improve your sight picture. I use a 2.0 strength, front blade is clear, the target is supposed to be fuzzy. This is from a rest at 50ft, .5 in. It looks a little like how breathing effects rifle shooters.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:43 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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I'm thinking it was the sun... I shot a couple sub 1" groups earlier that afternoon. Between glare on the gun and the paper "glowing" with the sun behind the orange dot, I don't think I was able to align the tops of the blades.

No changes, same mag and I have trouble seeing the holes so I'm certainly not focusing on a compensating hold.
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  #11  
Old 04-05-2020, 05:19 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
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If you have a metal front sight, use a match or lighter to smoke the sight. Gets rid of the glare.

OR you could do what i did and get a red dot.

I got out of bullseye because the sights were getting harder to see. Then I got a red dot sight. Now I am back in the game. I even have ONE carry gun with a dot sight and all have CT laser.

That is OK for defensive group. He would drop from every shot.

I really doubt its the ammo.

David
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2020, 06:05 PM
JamieC JamieC is offline
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Try it again, let someone else shoot it, don't sneeze while shooting!
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2020, 10:55 PM
markm markm is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
I don't think I was able to align the tops of the blades.
I think this, it is really unlikely you would have that much velocity deviation to do that and the horizontal spread is like nothing.
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:58 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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"I struggle with seeing the target well."

Don't look at the target. Stay focused on the front sight. Some people try to see where the bullet hit as soon as the gun fires. Bad habit. Leads to looking away from the front sight to soon.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:49 AM
flechero flechero is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExpert View Post
"I struggle with seeing the target well."

Don't look at the target. Stay focused on the front sight. Some people try to see where the bullet hit as soon as the gun fires. Bad habit. Leads to looking away from the front sight to soon.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk
good point, but I should have said it like this: While focused on the front sight, I don't see the target well enough to keep tight sight alignment on a small bullseye- not that I'm trying to "focus" on the target. I can hit A-zones and plates but when trying to pinpoint small exact target dots for the purpose of finding small differences in ammo, it's difficult and seems to vary based on light vs bright.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:53 AM
flechero flechero is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractor View Post
Did you Chronograph that string of shots?
unfortunately I did not.
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  #17  
Old 04-06-2020, 12:31 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
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At 20 yards you would need hundreds of fps spread to move them that much.

David
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  #18  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:49 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Huh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
I knew a young moron that thought it would be a favor to his poor, always compressed magazine springs to stretch them out. After that the gun would always string the groups.
I'll never do that again...

My point is you could have a magazine with issues.
I've only been doing this stuff since the 1960's! Never heard this before! I double checked and your post wasn't April 1st!

To the OP, before assuming a gun issue have someone with an Expert card shoot the thing.

Velocity spread would have to be extreme to cause this as mentioned above.

And yes sun angle can affect POA/POI.

If it turns out to look like a mechanical issue Google: "1911, Barrel springing and vertical stringing"

Smiles,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 04-06-2020 at 03:54 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-06-2020, 04:17 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
I knew a young moron that thought it would be a favor to his poor, always compressed magazine springs to stretch them out. After that the gun would always string the groups.
I'll never do that again...

My point is you could have a magazine with issues.
??????

Can you explain the interaction you're suggesting between magazine springs and vertical stringing??.
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  #20  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:22 PM
markm markm is online now
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Just out of curiosity was the bottom shot your first? I ask because my shooting buddy and I have noticed that often our first shots strike low, I have no idea why and I don't mean on a clean barrel just first out of a magazine. I don't know if it has to do with they way it was chambered or what.

As for your choice of targets I'd have to see what that looked like at that range but I do know it makes a difference. I mostly shoot at 25yds and used to use 25yd targets (B-16) and a while back I switched to 50ft targets (B-3) and my groups got almost half the size. Maybe it's true if you aim small you miss small
I've also noticed that a 6 o'clock hold is better for me than a center hold as far as vertically.
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  #21  
Old 04-06-2020, 06:56 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markm View Post
Just out of curiosity was the bottom shot your first? I ask because my shooting buddy and I have noticed that often our first shots strike low, I have no idea why and I don't mean on a clean barrel just first out of a magazine. I don't know if it has to do with they way it was chambered or what.

As for your choice of targets I'd have to see what that looked like at that range but I do know it makes a difference. I mostly shoot at 25yds and used to use 25yd targets (B-16) and a while back I switched to 50ft targets (B-3) and my groups got almost half the size. Maybe it's true if you aim small you miss small
I've also noticed that a 6 o'clock hold is better for me than a center hold as far as vertically.
I can't say for sure it was first- I don't think I could see the hits in real time for the glare.
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  #22  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:58 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Recoil aversion...!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markm View Post
Just out of curiosity was the bottom shot your first? I ask because my shooting buddy and I have noticed that often our first shots strike low, I have no idea why and I don't mean on a clean barrel just first out of a magazine. I don't know if it has to do with they way it was chambered or what.

As for your choice of targets I'd have to see what that looked like at that range but I do know it makes a difference. I mostly shoot at 25yds and used to use 25yd targets (B-16) and a while back I switched to 50ft targets (B-3) and my groups got almost half the size. Maybe it's true if you aim small you miss small
I've also noticed that a 6 o'clock hold is better for me than a center hold as far as vertically.
Low shots especially low left for a right handed shooter can mean recoil aversion and results in pushing against recoil. Pushing against recoil usually results in low POI!

Smiles,
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  #23  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:01 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
??????

Can you explain the interaction you're suggesting between magazine springs and vertical stringing??.
I had a brain fart and thought that pulling the springs out of my Colt Mustang's magazines and giving them a good stretch could help compensate for being compressed all the time. Afterwards the gun would string most of the shots.
I assume the loss of accuracy right after molesting the magazines was related.
That is all.
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  #24  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:14 PM
markm markm is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Low shots especially low left for a right handed shooter can mean recoil aversion and results in pushing against recoil. Pushing against recoil usually results in low POI!

Smiles,
Well that was from a Ransom rest...
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  #25  
Old 04-07-2020, 09:04 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Ransom Rest!!??

From the OP! No mention of a Ransom Rest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markm View Post
Well that was from a Ransom rest...
"I am trying to learn to shoot groups so that I can better compare the ammo I'm loading. The other day I had a crazy strung "group" (embarrassed to post it but a pic is worth lots of words) that was really tight horizontally but vertically strung over 3".

Is this just my inability to hold a consistent sight picture & attention, or should I check my scale?

Some days (depending on how the sun illuminates things) I really struggle with a clear sight picture and other days I struggle with seeing the target well. I think I remember this one being at the end of my trip as the sun was low. (shooting towards it) I shot several good groups earlier that day.

Thanks for your thoughts. "



If a group shows vertical stringing from a Ransom Rest it would definitely be an ammo or mechanical issue.

In this case I'd rule out ammo though!

Smiles,
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Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
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