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  #51  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:56 PM
jmx66 jmx66 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter223 View Post
he didn't say. i do know that the lugs fit was loose. the bushing is tight. not sure about your other question.
Tight in the frame and/or tight on the barrel?

If your guy can't explain and demonstrate what's wrong with your current barrel and how a new one will fix it, I'd get a second opinion.

Last edited by jmx66; 05-29-2017 at 11:49 PM.
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  #52  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:03 AM
shooter223 shooter223 is offline
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Which bullets will the 1:32 twist stabilize? How fast/slow are they going to get that kind of accuracy?I mainly shoot IPSC style so i don't know if a 1:32 twist would be practical.

Last edited by shooter223; 05-30-2017 at 08:21 AM.
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:15 AM
shooter223 shooter223 is offline
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Originally Posted by jmx66 View Post
Tight in the frame and/or tight on the barrel?

If your guy can't explain and demonstrate what's wrong with your current barrel and how a new one will fix it, I'd get a second opinion.
It all seems tight to me except the lugs. It's not that he couldn't explain. I never asked and he didn't offer the details. I should have asked.

Last edited by shooter223; 05-30-2017 at 08:29 AM.
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  #54  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:45 AM
shooter223 shooter223 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter223 View Post
Which bullets will the 1:32 twist stabilize? How fast/slow are they going to get that kind of accuracy?I mainly shoot IPSC style so i don't know if a 1:32 twist would be practical.
I re-read your post and answered my own question
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  #55  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:39 PM
passx passx is offline
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I just got word that my new r-officer 9mm target is on its way back, can't wait ! The rep that took care of me (Mike) told me they tuned the extracter and the mag release and put a new barrel and bushing in it as well as tested it for function and accuracy, should be here Monday, I'm hoping for the best and can't wait to take it to the range.
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  #56  
Old 06-01-2017, 02:49 PM
shooter223 shooter223 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayhawkNavy02 View Post
In full custom Bullseye pistols, they'll often "settle" as the barrels and pistol are shot, fouling smooths the bore and the groups go down a bit. Parts are fit and allowed to break in vice get sloppy.
Production barrels are often pretty rough. If they're too rough, they'll foul excessively and hamper accuracy.
Generally we don't clean until accuracy degrades, and then only enough to get it back. Rimfire barrels rarely get cleaned, for both focus is on the chamber with a brush 1 size above the bore.
The RO like the other production 1911s, really don't have much fitting at all. Part of the wonder of MIM and the costs savings. I have one, love it, so not a slam, just the reality of the current production methods. Even some semi-custom shops, like Colt were not allowed to actually fit an oversized slide to a frame until recently, but with the Manager laid off, not sure what the status is.




Production pistols go to warranty for repair by roughly the same group who built it, not the custom shop, unless it was a custom pistol or your custom work had issues. "NM" is simply a stamp for marketing in the majority of companies and there is no industry standard for min group size from a rest at a specific range with a type of ammo, etc. In 45ACP the RO can be quite accurate with a little work, but the 45 is a very forging round to build around. The 9mm, not so much. At 25 yards and less you can get some very respectable near 1" groups from most that we test. At 50 things change dramatically. 9mm starts supersonic and needs to stay that way. Transitioning from super to subsonic is an accuracy killer.



We shoot 115gr or 124gr for service pistol exclusively. If the 1911 won't feed those from the first trigger squeeze it has setup/fit issues. One exception on a new pistol is that they occasionally won't go into battery when slingshot and that can/will happen regardless of bullet weight as the lockup and slide/frame may be a little too much to overcome for the weaker spring. Other than a courtesy bump at the beginning, no action needed. That level of fit isn't present in a production or probably even semi-custom. IMO, "break in" is used as an excuse for poor fitting and lack of attention by the manufacturer. There are almost no parts fit on a RO, MIM drop in. My full custom bullseye guns are built to at or below 1.25" 50 yard groups and no break in was required. I took my pistol from the Gunsmith and competed with it and won the same day. BTW, we only load 5 rounds in a magazine. No need to load more. We actually avoid it to increase accuracy and reliability. If the slide/frame is excessively tight it can be racked by hand without having to go through the cost of ammunition. Simply disassemble the pistol so only the bare slide and frame are together and check for improperly machined surfaces, which can be addressed. Touch up or have the manufacture correct it and reassemble.

I use this as a guide when I inspect a 1911. Others are well beyond my level of knowledge I'm sure, but I find it a great reference.

A Day With A Master Gunsmith by Chip Lohman, Shooting Sports USA 2009
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/...php?startid=16



Production barrels are typically drop in, Dan Wesson does a "semi-drop in" however, good barrels like Colt/Springfield/etc. can often be welded up with great results, but your gunsmiths may not want to exert the effort as a new barrel may be faster and they have a greater probability of good performance. The root problem with most production/semi-custom 9mm barrels is that they're a compromise. The twist rate faster to stabilize heavy bullets, but the range/target weight is much lighter. If you want superb accuracy you will want a KKM slow twist barrel, which is a 1-32 vice the 1-16 or even faster, and have it custom reamed with a gentle transition (leade angle). Hornady 115 gr or 124 gr XTP or HAP in the same weights are terrific. Power Pistol and N-330 are two great consistent powders for 9mm.

Here are a couple of test targets from Bullseye Gunsmiths, if you need contact information shoot me a PM.

10 shots at 50 yards (Caspian Full Custom) by David Sams from a HEG rest



25 shots at 50 yards (Accurized Les Baer) by Jerry Keefer from a Ransom Rest

Have you found any accurate subsonic loads with 147 grain bullets?
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  #57  
Old 06-02-2017, 08:27 PM
Johnprim Johnprim is offline
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I had the same issue with my RO 9mm. It was embarrassing on the range. It was only with winchester white box ammo. No problem since I changed.
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2017, 06:43 PM
passx passx is offline
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So a question I have is why does different ammo affect the accuracy ? I know Springfield prefers that you use the 124g rounds in these guns for best accuracy but I'd just like to know what effects the accuracy and why. What about the heavier rounds affects the gun enough to throw the accuracy off ? Thanks in advance...
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  #59  
Old 06-04-2017, 07:23 PM
dgludwig dgludwig is offline
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The rate of twist is the only thing that I can think of that would differentiate accuracy differences involving strictly different bullet weights (lengths in terms of bullet contact with the bore; realizing that heavier bullets generally means longer lengths, everything else being equal).
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Last edited by dgludwig; 06-04-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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  #60  
Old 06-04-2017, 08:14 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter223 View Post
Have you found any accurate subsonic loads with 147 grain bullets?
No. Not at 50 yards.

Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 06-04-2017 at 08:16 PM.
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  #61  
Old 06-05-2017, 06:10 AM
Billy1911 Billy1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by William Trifillis View Post
Just bought one. Very poor accuracy. 16" @ 25 yds benched. Returned to springfield. Sent back to me with target demonstrating 5" 5-shot group. I again could only get 16" groups using winchester factory and 3 bullet types of my reloads. I realize this voids factory warranty, but if it won't shoot hand loads it's of no use to me. I have wilson 45 pro that groups 2-3 inches and a stock Colt CCO that does 5-6 inches. This is advertised as a competition pistol. A disappointment at best. Certainly couldn't recommend this to anyone. I notice others' accuracy remarks refer 7-10 yds. Pea shooters shoot well at arms length ranges. Cycling was nearly 100 percent with break in needed. Due to tight lockup. Had to push slide to close ocassionally. About 400 round thru it. Still sticky but OK. gave up on it though. I'm getting rid of it due to intolerable accuracy.

Sounds more like a trigger control problem and if the slide it that tight
the pistol has not even broken in yet . I think you are used to a lighter
trigger like on your Wilson pro . If you had a trigger that was 3 1/2 lbs
instead of 5 to 6 lbs like on the RO . I bet you would shoot it way better .

AND the pistol is NOT advertised as a competition pistol. Its advertised
as :
When we introduced the 1911 Range OfficerŽ for the competitive shooter,
we were surprised at the response. Serious shooters who care about the
details welcomed the precision features that made the Range OfficerŽ
perform far beyond its price tag.

Meaning the competitive shooter can modify the pistol to his or her needs
cheaper because the base pistol has a low price tag .

TO think a 800.00 pistol is going to compete with a 3000 Wilson or 1200
Colt without any mods is crazy .
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  #62  
Old 06-05-2017, 07:40 AM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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From what I've read, the Range Officers in 9mm seem to have an accuracy issue with some factory loads out of the box, but are tack drivers with custom loads.

I did some poking around thinking maybe it was an issue with the twist rate that SA uses, but from what I can tell, most/all 9mm 1911 barrels are 1:16 twist (someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong).

So, unless the barrel itself is oversized in some way/getting marginal engagement on the bullet, I can't see how the RO is so incredibly inaccurate where other guns using the same twist aren't having issues.

I'd be curious to mic the lands and grooves in the barrel to see if the barrel were out of nominal spec for 9mm, and would definitely want to check for lockup and bushing engagement play, but...the only thing I can think of throwing off accuracy by that much is the bullet not stabilizing correct, maybe.
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  #63  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:02 AM
JLJ223 JLJ223 is offline
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I would be interested to hear more about the whole 124gr bullet situation as well, I have shot mainly 115gr from my Springfields simply because they are widely available and the easiest loading to go right out and pick up over the counter almost anywhere, I would be more than happy to run some 124gr down locally or even order in bulk online if they are indeed more accurate, is Springfields main reason for suggesting 124gr because they are a touch slower?
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  #64  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:47 AM
win3030 win3030 is offline
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I just got a "Bonus Box" of 20 rounds of 124 in a box of 115 that I just bough. I look forward to shooting them off, though my Operator has zero issues with accuracy with the 115's.
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  #65  
Old 06-05-2017, 01:08 PM
Heyyou Heyyou is offline
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Hi - I've been lurking for months - maybe a year - and finally decided to join to be able to share on this subject. I have an emp4 that exhibits terrible accuracy. At 15 yards, benched, I've never seen anything do better than 4" and that was premium federal hst 124. most is 6" or better. because of what I learned on this site I've been all over the gun, from lockup, to clearance at the lower lug, vis, link, barrel / slide fit at the muzzle... it's all pretty good, a .200 EGW slide stop gets the barrel fully locked. Still the accuracy is horrible, no change. I sent the gun to Springfield, they sent it back with a 5 shot 3" group at 25 yards saying it needed nothing. Are you kidding - no way! I went back out and benched it with several different ammos... it's still the same. I called springfield and discussed it with a supervisor along with some other issues... so the gun is there now, And I'm in wait mode.

I wanted to get this posted up because basically the EMP4 9mm is about the same as the range officer 4". I felt this stuff should be documented because there may be a pattern here, and the next guy can learn, as I have, from these posts.
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  #66  
Old 06-05-2017, 04:46 PM
passx passx is offline
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I just got my SS Range Officer back from Springfield, they say that they "tuned" the extractor and magazine catch and both seem to work. They also replaced the barrel and bushing to address my concern for the poor accuracy and returned the test target as well, it shows a 2 1/4" group at 25yrds rested using federal 124g rounds. The plan is to take it to the range and find out tomorrow, I hope it works, I'm a little concerned that the bushing to barrel fit is still a loose .0015in which is waaaay better than it was and the fit to the slide is also way better. I'm also going to try some 115g and 124g rounds through it to see if it does make a difference, we'll see.

Billy1911, my friend I would have to disagree on the RO being a competitive gun, I think it is marketed as an accurate target pistol which is why I bought it, it's supposed to be a "target" gun. Now do I believe that it is on par with a $4000 Baer, Wilson, brown, no I don't but unless your shooting from a rest I think the differences will be smaller. So if the range officer will shoot as accurately as my ruger p95dc 9mm that shoots 115g rounds quite well and accurately and also my Thompson .45 1911 which shot groupings about 1/2the size as the RO the only time I shot the RO the p95dc was even better, so we'll see.

Plus I got my gear-up stuff today, what a deal that is, it really sweetens the deal. Can't wait to shoot my RO. I'll report back.

On the 115g vs 124g bullet accuracy differences I have a theory where maybe the 115g round slows down and goes sub-sonic and with the lighter 115g bullet becomes unstabile easier than the 124g round does, so it wobbles more, just a thought.

Last edited by passx; 06-05-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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  #67  
Old 06-05-2017, 05:18 PM
Heyyou Heyyou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
. They also replaced the barrel and bushing to address my concern for the poor accuracy and returned the test target as well, it shows a 2 1/4" group at 25yrds rested using federal 124g rounds. .

which Federal, does it say? when I sent my emp4 in they shot hydroshocks. That doesn't help me much, it's a range gun and I don't think I should have to shoot premium defensive ammo for steel shooting. My gun did shoot better with federal HST, but the first round was always about 4" lower than the rest.

Last edited by Heyyou; 06-05-2017 at 06:20 PM.
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  #68  
Old 06-05-2017, 08:44 PM
passx passx is offline
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Sorry Heyyou, I just went and pulled the target back out of the safe and it just says Federal 124g, nothing more.

One interesting side note on all this is that the ejector came back still just glued, I didn't complain about that so they probably don't pin it w/o a complaint but my 1 month older emp4 is pinned from the factory and glued. No ryhme or reason to it. Is it really a problem ?

Last edited by passx; 06-05-2017 at 10:26 PM.
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  #69  
Old 06-06-2017, 05:19 AM
Billy1911 Billy1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by passx View Post

One interesting side note on all this is that the ejector came back still just glued, I didn't complain about that so they probably don't pin it w/o a complaint but my 1 month older emp4 is pinned from the factory and glued. No ryhme or reason to it. Is it really a problem ?


Its very interesting . All SA's going back to the factory I have heard of were
pinned . Its not a problem just different . Hope you enjoy your RO after the
fix . Sounds like they found a problem with the barrel .

Oh and I just red this on their website about the RO . So I was wrong :
The .45ACP Range OfficerŽ has the same quality forged national match frame and slide as the Trophy Match™ and TRP™ 1911s. It gets the same precision fit as these pistols, too. Add in the same match grade stainless steel barrel and bushing, and you have a pistol that shoots well beyond its price tag.

AND THIS :
A gun is only as good as its barrel, so we didn’t skimp there either. We added a national match stainless steel barrel and precisely fit bushing for maximum accuracy.
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Last edited by Billy1911; 06-06-2017 at 06:05 AM. Reason: add on
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  #70  
Old 06-06-2017, 06:09 PM
passx passx is offline
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Thanks for the input billy, I took the RO to the range today and put about 400 rounds through it, started off with freedom munitions 124g bullets for the first 4 mags and it was a mess, thought it was going straight back to Springfield, it was terrible, stove piping and failing to eject, jamming the slide every 2 to 3 shots, I was po'd to say the least but the accuracy was really good so I switched over to 115g armscor rounds and the next 4 mags had zero issues with them, then I went back to the 124g rounds and again it was perfect, shot great, way more accurate than me, it shot 3" groups at 30ft and 50ft both easily, I love this gun... but the ability to load a full 9 rd mag in the gun still is a problem, 8 rounds no problem, 9 rds it won't load it, so I think I'll just shoot it for a while and enjoy it and if in a while it still won't load a full mag it'll go back..

As far as the 124g vs 115g deal I think it's overstated, there is A very slight improvement with the 124g rds but it's small shooting free hand , maybe a ransom rest would show a bigger difference but I really didn't see it shooting free hand. Did I mention that I love this gun ? By the way the FreedomMunitions ammo worked very well, I will by more.

Last edited by passx; 06-06-2017 at 07:24 PM.
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  #71  
Old 06-06-2017, 09:34 PM
2toes22 2toes22 is offline
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I bought a 5" RO 9mm back in 2015 , it went back to SA after the first range trip. The front sight was cocked to the left and it was throwing spent brass back into my face on a regular basis into my mouth area, not good. Got it back in under two weeks, front sight now perfect and the extractor problem fixed, but the ejector was not pinned, I don't think SA does that just because, they did seem to do some magic to the trigger though nice 4 1/2 pull. Could not really judge accuracy with the brass being flung into my face but when it came back it was like I was showing off at the range, blowing one big hole at 15 yds. Not much difference between 115g and 124g rounds. I had the same problems with the factory mags you describe at first and only loaded them to eight rounds but the springs finally softened and I could load them to 9rds. I bought some CMC 10 rd and at first could not load them to full capacity but a few loadings and they work fine. Give the RO and the mags some time and I believe you will see an improvement in the function overall.
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  #72  
Old 06-07-2017, 05:33 AM
Billy1911 Billy1911 is offline
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Load the magazines as full as you can and leave them loaded when they sit
between shoots . One of the major problems they found with 9 mm in the
1911 platform in the passed was the magazine springs were to weak to
force the round into the chamber . Now they all have stronger springs .
Even my Wilson's

Glad you are happy with your RO
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Last edited by Billy1911; 06-07-2017 at 05:35 AM.
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  #73  
Old 06-07-2017, 06:47 AM
passx passx is offline
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Thanks Billy and 2toes, that's kinda what I was thinking and will do that. That's why I really wasn't in a hurry to send it back, thanks guy's !
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  #74  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:40 AM
passx passx is offline
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Just a follow-up on the failure to be able to load a full 9rd mag with the slide closed, after having the mags fully loaded to 9rds just sitting for a week now they will all snap in just fine, very smooth engagement. Going to add a EGW barrel bushing and slide stop to tighten those areas up a bit and should get a bit better accuracy as well, the gun as returned from Springfield service was really good but if a little more can be had easily to help the "old guy" then that's better, this is a really nice gun!
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  #75  
Old 07-01-2017, 09:07 AM
passx passx is offline
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Well guy's, after now putting about 900rds through my SS RO 9mm after the new barrel the accuracy seems to have gone away again, I can shoot about 1/2 the grouping size with my Thompson 1911 .45 that I can with the RO or any of my other guns for that matter, the RO seems to shoot about 4-6" groups at 30'. I added the briley spherical barrel bushing from the Thompson since both have a .580in barrel, it helped but still not as accurate as it was when it came back.

Thinking of trading or selling it but I really love the gun, So I have a couple of questions, it seems to shoot better fresh out of the box and gets worse as it gets hot, is this a normal thing ? Also I can now get a .015in shim (tight) between the barrel hood and breech face, only about .001in when it first came back with the new barrel and bushing. With The barrel in the slide with the bushing in now has some front to back movement when in full battery.

The slide to frame fit is tight and probably the best/smoothest I've ever felt.

So I'm a little conflicted on what to do here, I do love the gun, but the accuracy is troubling and I know that it is easily the least accurate gun I have, should be the best imho. I'm thinking of sending it back to Springfield and have them put in a good quality "match" barrel and do some accurizing on it, or send it to one of the smiths here to do the same. Or just sell it and get something else, but the cost differences would probably be about the same as having it accurized.
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