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  #126  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:04 AM
KCJeep KCJeep is offline
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Originally Posted by devildog93 View Post
I like Paul Harrell's shooting set up with ribs surrounding melons. I think it makes for a sensible demonstration .He set up a lehigh xtreme penetrator or defender in one of his vids that seemed to work fairly well. I think if i'm using it for home defense i wouldn't mind having the option to go through a door if needed. I think iraqveteran8888 had a video demo of them as well that was informative.
I'm a big fan of Harrell's as well. I believe his meat target is far more accurate than the ballistic gel for "real world" results.

He has had good results with Defenders. The Penetrators didn't do much more than a fmj would as far as he could tell. If you want that kind of performance hard cast flat nose would be a cheaper option.
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  #127  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:17 PM
woody b woody b is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
If the 1970s works, why change? Just because it is 2020, doesn't make something that works obsolete.

Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.
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  #128  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:49 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by woody b View Post
Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.
And we all know that using 62 grain bonded jacketed soft points will make a .223 Remington the equal of say .308 Winchester or 30-06 using jacketed soft points on deer or elk or moose or ruskies....
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  #129  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:09 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
And we all know that using 62 grain bonded jacketed soft points will make a .223 Remington the equal of say .308 Winchester or 30-06 using jacketed soft points on deer or elk or moose or ruskies....

Yeah. I keep reading at the beginning of the hunting season each year that rounds like the .30-30 and .35 Remington are obsolete and not up to the task of taking the mighty whitetail deer. Funny how they keep going like the Energizer Bunny year after year. You could fill a large barrel with all the rounds that are "obsolete" and no longer effective.
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  #130  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by woody b View Post
Now you know that as soon as a newer bullet style in released it instantly turns the old formerly effective design into a .22 short.



I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
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  #131  
Old 01-11-2020, 08:17 AM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
One of my favorites to strap on occasionally is my S&W model 24-3 in the "obsolete" .44 spl. loaded with "obsolete" 240 gr. cast Kieth LSWC's with that nice big meplat. How's that for "old school"?
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  #132  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:32 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
Youíre in Illinois!
Some rat would call Jonny Law and you would be surrounded by a swat team. Youíd only be able to get six of them before they tossed you in the Cook County Jail!! Jake says the food is terrible!!
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  #133  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:14 PM
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Youíre in Illinois!
Some rat would call Jonny Law and you would be surrounded by a swat team. Youíd only be able to get six of them before they tossed you in the Cook County Jail!! Jake says the food is terrible!!

I'm not in Cook County. Besides, my 1911 is always close to hand, even if I'm packin' a wheel gun. May not be a long fight, but it'll be spectacular!
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  #134  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:45 PM
Buccaneer12 Buccaneer12 is offline
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Ive had pass throughs with hollowpoints and ive had ball rounds contain. Interestingly, ive never seen a hollow point round recovered from a human body expand the way it did in gel test videos. Usually i see them just kind of crushed down and sometimes partially peeled/pedaled back. Not saying it cant happen, i guess, just that ive never seen it.
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  #135  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:47 PM
Buccaneer12 Buccaneer12 is offline
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Sometimes the old magic is the best...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpas50AE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
I think I'll have to dig out my 4" .45 Colt Redhawk and strap that on next time I go out for the day. A cylinder full of obsolete 250 gr. RNFP lead bullets ought to be anachronistic enough, right? Just in case I run into a stray mad elephant or something.
One of my favorites to strap on occasionally is my S&W model 24-3 in the "obsolete" .44 spl. loaded with "obsolete" 240 gr. cast Kieth LSWC's with that nice big meplat. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] How's that for "old school"?
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  #136  
Old 01-17-2020, 01:18 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer12 View Post
Ive had pass throughs with hollowpoints and ive had ball rounds contain. Interestingly, ive never seen a hollow point round recovered from a human body expand the way it did in gel test videos. Usually i see them just kind of crushed down and sometimes partially peeled/pedaled back. Not saying it cant happen, i guess, just that ive never seen it.
I can testify to the same.
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  #137  
Old 01-17-2020, 04:59 AM
RawHide*1911* RawHide*1911* is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
Just to illustrate: A .45 Colt 265 gr. wide flat nose punched a hole from the front left shoulder of a whitetail buck, all the way through, and out the opposite ham at 75 yds. Started out at about 1100 fps from a Blackhawk. Dropped him right in his tracks. Didn't take a step. I've also seen a 250 RNFP that started at only 875 or so punch through both shoulders at about 50 yds. Some would call both of those shots just lucky, but that's typical with those kinds of loads from what I've seen over the years.
Yep have killed quite a few deer with 45Colt a ranges from 30 to 100yrds with a Smith 25-5 6inch
I have used 250 gr lead RNFP with 8.5 unique and Winchester PDX1 JHP Bonded . Nothing has run past 50 yrds The lead load goes through Gel PDX expands beautifully , Both kill effectively at around 900 fps.

Long story short 45s make big holes that kill stuff fast but if you want a confidence inspiring visual a Golden Saber +P 230gr pulled out of ballistic Gel looks like a nickel sized hole saw . Looks like something to protect yourself with IMO
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  #138  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:59 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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I can testify to the same.
FOUL......youíre in California, hollow points are not allowed under Proposition 65, subsection ďstrip searchĒ.
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  #139  
Old 01-17-2020, 09:25 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
FOUL......youíre in California, hollow points are not allowed under Proposition 65, subsection ďstrip searchĒ.
Wrong Nitro. Prop65 is a warning that is put on every product, even McDonald's hamburgers. I carry Federal HST 230g +p in my LBCC.
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  #140  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:39 AM
KCJeep KCJeep is offline
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer12 View Post
Ive had pass throughs with hollowpoints and ive had ball rounds contain. Interestingly, ive never seen a hollow point round recovered from a human body expand the way it did in gel test videos. Usually i see them just kind of crushed down and sometimes partially peeled/pedaled back. Not saying it cant happen, i guess, just that ive never seen it.
I will third that. This is where people get derailed by ballistic gel. Bullets pulled out of bodies rarely look much like what you see all over You Tube.

I generally search for carry ammo bullets that consistently show radical expansion in gel for this reason.

Hunting - controlled expansion. Self defense - heavy expansion.
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  #141  
Old 01-17-2020, 02:50 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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This thread had me thinking at lunch so I filled a metal popcorn can with water and stood on top of the scrap bin and shot it. Went though 1 1/2 feet of water, both the lid and base, and 4 inches into the ground.

Expanded to .85-90 and the jacket separated but was sitting on the base. Repeated it with a LSWC round and a similar container made of plastic. Didn't make it through the whole way but that's likely a power difference between the two loads.

https://imgur.com/a/***t7Zn
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Last edited by Striker2237; 01-17-2020 at 02:59 PM.
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  #142  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:13 PM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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All the law enforcement agencies around here issue hollow points to their officers.
I suspect they may be on to something.
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  #143  
Old 01-18-2020, 07:51 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by gumbee View Post
Wrong Nitro. Prop65 is a warning that is put on every product, even McDonald's hamburgers. I carry Federal HST 230g +p in my LBCC.
Levity my friend! Thatís where the strip search part came in.....
But while weíre at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that donít kill rats in their lab tests. Itís like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that itís wet......
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  #144  
Old 01-18-2020, 10:58 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Levity my friend! Thatís where the strip search part came in.....
But while weíre at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that donít kill rats in their lab tests. Itís like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that itís wet......
You got me Nitro :-)
California is the nanny state, what can I say.
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  #145  
Old 01-18-2020, 06:47 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Levity my friend! Thatís where the strip search part came in.....
But while weíre at it, I have always wondered why there is the insane need to put that on every product. It would be far easier to mark items that donít kill rats in their lab tests. Itís like the CDC out there is trying to run from potential liability if someone eats a garden hose. As stupid as putting a warning on bottled water that itís wet......
They do it because we know that a bible that contains .00000001% lead in the ink on the box it comes in at the store is more dangerous then the little crack rocks being sold next door in the alley buy some gang banger..
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  #146  
Old 01-19-2020, 04:02 PM
Razorback22 Razorback22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
There is an old saying I came up with a few months back:
"A hit to a non-vital area with a hollowpoint is no more effective than a hit with a full metal jacket round. A hit to a vital area with a full metal jacket is no less effective than a hit with a hollowpoint round."
The problem with expanding bullets is reliable, repeatable performance and even today, despite all the marketing, expanding bullets are no more "reliable" than they were 30 years ago. Bear in mind the bullet that got ALL the blame for not stopping the Miami shooter in 1986 was a 9mm expanding bullet that failed to penetrate into the heart. Had that bullet been a FMJ 124gr. NATO round it would most likely have punched ALL the way through and exited. The one thing we KNOW for sure when a bullet exits is that it hit and damaged everything in the middle!
When you anticipate encountering bear you don't even consider JHP ammo, but when the topic turns to humans, which are easily likely to weigh as much as smaller bears and are every bit as dangerous, people think nothing of leaving the .500 S&W at home in favor of a super-sub-compact with JHP ammo. Unfortunately humans don't just stand there and wait for their shooting, nor do they "square up" for it so the bullet has only a few inches to penetrate before encountering something tasty. As soon as a large adult male starts presenting "angles" all bets are off when it comes to predicting what any expanding handgun bullet in the sub-500fpe range is going to do. Worse still is the fact that magnums can achieve higher velocities which makes expanding bullets open up faster and penetrate LESS! Unless of course the bullet is specifically made for that added speed which is not generally the case.
Over-penetration is also over-hyped. I've seen a person hit in the hip by a .45ACP "hardball" that stopped in the bladder - traversing a distance of maybe 8 inches to get there. It certainly didn't zoom clean through him, and it had no effect what-so-ever on his ability to walk into the ER and announce he "thought" he'd been shot.
I've also seen 9mm HP hits that went clean through the upper torso, tearing out ragged plugs because there is very little in the human chest cavity to slow a bullet down on a front-to-back hit. Hit seven times the "kid" was alert, talking, and could easily have gone home save for the chest tube we inserted to reinflate his lung. I remember another guy showed up by ambulance, shot clean THROUGH his FACE by a low-powered handgun. Based on the entrance hole and exit "slit" it was most likely a .38spl round nose. The bullet entered the bridge of his nose, traversed through his ethmoid sinus, glanced off the base of the cranial vault, deflected slightly sideways and exited just below the occipital lobe of the skull. "Treatment" consisted of two band-aids after imaging studies to determine the extent of internal injury. That patient went home the next day!

Now, everyone THINKS expanding bullets are more effective, and in certain situations I'd agree, but when dealing with what are essentially "large game animals" (humans), I'd take a FMJ over an expander, and I'd take a cartridge making supersonic velocity over one carrying more mass. The .38 hit to the face didn't kill the man, though it likely ended the altercation. Another shot probably would would have killed the man. The 9mm hits didn't kill that young man either, and they all went clean through (7 hits, 14 holes in this example), despite being JHP bullets, and yet, after the initial "surprise" he was in excellent condition and required very little medical care considering. Despite the number of hits, none passed through a vital zone - all were to the left side of the chest region.

I remember another young man who shot himself in the chest with a 'home-made" .22. He came in by ambulance and did not survive despite considerable efforts to save him. One shot dead center, directly over the heart.

And then we have the documented shootings we can all view or read about.

We also have a plethora of real-life video "data" where we can see people being shot and how they reacted - regardless of caliber and ammunition type used.

The bottom line is, if that bullet passes into or through a vital spot - the person is going down. If not, they will react in a variety of ways, generally toward self-preservation in the form of ducking, dodging, and running...which could equal a "one shot stop" or even a no shot stop, or full miss stop if the attacker leaves off the attack!

The lowly .22LR has as good of a "track record" as does the 9mm, .38 spl, and .45 auto. .22 bullets fired from short barrels have done complete pass-throughs on humans, and bullet design has little to do with it. Certainly all calibers will kill, and all are equally effective at "stopping" since that is a far more subjective concept.

I don't think the person carrying a 9mm loaded with "real" 9mm power ammo in FMJ is at a disadvantage to one carrying a down-loaded JHP "defensive" round.

Last edited by Razorback22; 01-19-2020 at 04:07 PM.
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  #147  
Old 01-20-2020, 07:28 AM
Xhair Xhair is offline
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As for me, I will carry HP's period. If they do not expand, then they are no worse than FMJ's, but if they do then you are ahead of the game. I have never seen any data that shows good modern HP's are not better than FMJ's as a defensive round.
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  #148  
Old 01-20-2020, 08:37 AM
drail drail is offline
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If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.
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  #149  
Old 01-20-2020, 08:54 AM
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If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.
Wrong.

"The Pentagon's devotion to full-metal jacket, or ball ammunition, is the result of a 116-year-old guideline in the 1899 Hague Convention that prohibits combat units from using of bullets that "expand or flatten easily" inside the human body."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...or-the-m9.html
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  #150  
Old 01-20-2020, 09:24 AM
woody b woody b is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
If a ball round was really so terribly ineffective we would not have defeated our enemies in the last couple of wars. The main advantage of ball ammo is feed reliability which is why our military has always used it.

Handguns never have won a war. During a war a handgun is a back up weapon. They aren't even carried by everyone.
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