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  #101  
Old 10-26-2019, 03:04 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
As mentioned earlier.....they DO make projectiles specifically designed for short barreled weapons. You are trying to find a diamond in a goats butt by asking a quality round such as an HST to expand the same as it would from a full size 1911.
dar dardy dar. that's why the question was posed initially.
Uh.......they do. My 3 inch guns all work fine with it and expansion works as normal.
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  #102  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:43 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by jtq View Post
These are not frangible rounds, they are all copper bullets and designed as deep penetrators.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/all/45...e-120gr-bullet
You may be looking at the Extreme Penetrator line. Look at the “Fluted” projectiles that Warbird was curious about. I think those are the “Maximum Expansion” line. Lots of pics with those in 5 pieces.
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  #103  
Old 10-27-2019, 10:04 AM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
You may be looking at the Extreme Penetrator line. Look at the “Fluted” projectiles that Warbird was curious about. I think those are the “Maximum Expansion” line. Lots of pics with those in 5 pieces.
No, I gave a link to the Xtreme Defense round that he was talking about. As you can see in the link it is a monolithic copper solid. They aren't frangible and will probably not expand.

Here's a video comparing the Xtreme Pentrator and Xtreme Defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFwr2ycgXk

Perhaps you're thinking of yet a different round.
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  #104  
Old 10-27-2019, 07:06 PM
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CCV CCV is offline
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You could do a lot worse than carry .45 ball for defense. Just remember though that most stuff on the market is cheap range practice ammo and isn't up to the quality standards of expensive premium defense ammo. Remington was the last company I knew of making a premium FMJ load in .45, but they may have finally stopped offering it. Of the low-cost brands out there probably the two I'd trust for defense would be Sellier & Bellot and PMC. Definitely NOT Wolf or Winchester White Box!

Well Said!
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  #105  
Old 12-27-2019, 01:47 PM
voodooranger voodooranger is offline
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Originally Posted by noshow View Post
I can't find these on the web. I guess they have been discontinued.
Here is a few places I shop when I need more and I don't have time to reload my own .
Sometimes the 230gr will be temporally out of stock due to high demand but they are not discontinued per Speer .

https://www.sgammo.com/product/45-au...-fn-ammo-53658

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/spee...8-p-58808.aspx

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/spee...5-p-58870.aspx

These feed good?

Last edited by voodooranger; 12-27-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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  #106  
Old 12-27-2019, 06:26 PM
mkk41 mkk41 is offline
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The .45 ACP's well deserved reputation as a one-shot fight stopper was earned with GI 230gr FMJ-RN.
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  #107  
Old 12-27-2019, 06:50 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
The .45 ACP's well deserved reputation as a one-shot fight stopper was earned with GI 230gr FMJ-RN.
that reputation was gained in a time when all other calibers used solid nose rounds as well. so yeah, a .38 spl 158gr. LRN was not near the "fight stopper" as a .45 acp 230 gr. fmj. I still think that in short bbl big bore guns like Bullgogs and Officer models, a solid slug is just as effective for self defense against bad guys as their contemporary hollow points.
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  #108  
Old 12-28-2019, 07:32 AM
Chunker Chunker is offline
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Lead and Full metal jacket rounds have been doing their job since firearms were developed. Todays marketing tactics is also doing it's job well by coming up with the latest and greatest. Fancy high dollar HPs are just that, marketing.
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  #109  
Old 12-28-2019, 07:55 AM
Hawg1 Hawg1 is online now
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I use 230 grain home cast SWC's in my .45 ACP. The ones I've recovered seem to expand pretty good and have decent penetration in a variety of targets.
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  #110  
Old 12-28-2019, 08:22 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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A lead flat nose such as that has been well documented to raise hell. As opposed to a slick round nose FMJ that ricochet’s and zips through its target, the SWC and RFN just smash their way through. Fragmenting bones are devastating.
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  #111  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:01 AM
mkk41 mkk41 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chunker View Post
Fancy high dollar HPs are just that, marketing.

That's how I feel about bullets shown that were fired into Ballistic Gel. Defensive shootings are rarely perfectly level and square-on shots. Clothes , muscle , bones , soft organs , all effect how and if a HP will expand. And at the relatively low velocities of the .45 ACP , well , , ,?

The original Remington 185gr SJHP+P was a real hot rod load though. The bullet was well-designed for reliability and expansion.
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  #112  
Old 12-28-2019, 11:32 PM
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That's how I feel about bullets shown that were fired into Ballistic Gel. Defensive shootings are rarely perfectly level and square-on shots. Clothes , muscle , bones , soft organs , all effect how and if a HP will expand. And at the relatively low velocities of the .45 ACP , well , , ,?

The original Remington 185gr SJHP+P was a real hot rod load though. The bullet was well-designed for reliability and expansion.



None of the 185 gr. factory loads are worth a damn, at least not those from 15 years ago. Lots of tests proved that they had problems with barriers, often closing up the hollow point and failing to expand. They also had a tendency to not penetrate well due to loss of momentum.
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  #113  
Old 12-29-2019, 01:51 AM
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None of the 185 gr. factory loads are worth a damn, at least not those from 15 years ago. Lots of tests proved that they had problems with barriers, often closing up the hollow point and failing to expand. They also had a tendency to not penetrate well due to loss of momentum.
I agree completely.
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  #114  
Old 12-29-2019, 08:43 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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https://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

This is a good read for any that haven't read it regarding stopping power. Also look up the studies by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow. Their research is the most comprehensive out there.

Their research has shown 230 gr ball ammo to have a 63% one shot stop record. with 27" of penetration. (who needs that amount on a human target that averages 12"-16")

All the other HP cartridges (9mm, 40SW, 10MM, .357, 45) have at least one load that exhibits better than 90% one stop shots and around 13" of penetration.

Whether you want to trust the data or not is up to the individual, but I for one will not lock myself into 1950's logic about stopping power. Ball ammo is OK. Im not fine with just OK.
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Last edited by M-Peltier; 12-29-2019 at 09:26 PM.
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  #115  
Old 12-29-2019, 11:35 AM
woody b woody b is offline
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I don't think hollow points are "necessary". I don't believe in "magic" bullets anyway. However, the (small) chance shooting through the intended target, and hitting something unintended behind the target is a good reason for hollow points. I carry the same ammo for self defense that our local Sheriff's department uses. I feel that takes away anyone claiming that I was using "special, deadly" bullets if I ended up using my weapon. If someone accused me of using " special deadly" bullets my attorney would have reasonable facts to back up my ammo choice.
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  #116  
Old 12-30-2019, 06:18 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Some may wonder why you felt it was necessary to carry ammunition that is usually reserved for law enforcement! Just sayin’, some people always like to twist stuff!
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  #117  
Old 01-04-2020, 12:23 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
https://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

This is a good read for any that haven't read it regarding stopping power. Also look up the studies by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow. Their research is the most comprehensive out there.

Their research has shown 230 gr ball ammo to have a 63% one shot stop record. with 27" of penetration. (who needs that amount on a human target that averages 12"-16")

All the other HP cartridges (9mm, 40SW, 10MM, .357, 45) have at least one load that exhibits better than 90% one stop shots and around 13" of penetration.

Whether you want to trust the data or not is up to the individual, but I for one will not lock myself into 1950's logic about stopping power. Ball ammo is OK. Im not fine with just OK.

Its awfully FUN to CHERRY pick shooting cases to prove the point you want. Its really easy and done every day.

Heres the thing, for every case you show that someone was failed to be stopped by a .22lr, I can show you someone that WAS.

When you make your point on "fmj bad for self defense" I can show you cases were it was perfectly fine to drop an attacker. When you point out how wonderful jacketed bullets are, I can show you failures of them that made international news.

Remember few years back in texas where the teenager at home with dad pumped 60 rounds of HP and JSP .223 Remington into 3 home invaders who ALL managed to go 45-120 yards FROM THE POINT OF SHOOTING to finally falling down...
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  #118  
Old 01-05-2020, 08:54 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Once again, shot placement. That story had a lot of misses, grazes and non lethal zone hits. Even a deer can run for a long way with a “good” shot.
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  #119  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sistema1927 View Post
As I read some of these posts it is almost as if some folks are stuck in the 1970's.

If you can't find a load that will reliably expand in a short barrel 9mm you aren't looking hard enough.



If the 1970s works, why change? Just because it is 2020, doesn't make something that works obsolete.
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  #120  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I don't see why people would poo-poo using .45 230-grain hollow points. If they expand then you get all the benefits of the increased terminal performance. If they don't, well it's STILL a 230-grain bullet!



While that is true, it doesn't really explain things. A bullet that is designed to expand, such as the HST, often doesn't work as well when it doesn't. You get erratic performance, such as tumbling, etc. A truncated cone FMJ tends to fly straight through, smashing as it goes, same with a wide flat point lead bullet. They may flatten to some extent but seldom exhibit more than rudimentary expansion. The damage that such bullets do is far more devastating than any hollow point I've ever seen.
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  #121  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:15 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifter View Post
While that is true, it doesn't really explain things. A bullet that is designed to expand, such as the HST, often doesn't work as well when it doesn't. You get erratic performance, such as tumbling, etc. A truncated cone FMJ tends to fly straight through, smashing as it goes, same with a wide flat point lead bullet. They may flatten to some extent but seldom exhibit more than rudimentary expansion. The damage that such bullets do is far more devastating than any hollow point I've ever seen.
as far as cost, if the hollow point doesn't expand you have a very expensive swc like projectile. if it does expand from short bbls, what are you really gaining by that expansion over a swc?
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  #122  
Old 01-09-2020, 12:56 PM
devildog93 devildog93 is offline
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I like Paul Harrell's shooting set up with ribs surrounding melons. I think it makes for a sensible demonstration .He set up a lehigh xtreme penetrator or defender in one of his vids that seemed to work fairly well. I think if i'm using it for home defense i wouldn't mind having the option to go through a door if needed. I think iraqveteran8888 had a video demo of them as well that was informative.
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  #123  
Old 01-10-2020, 06:56 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Or, you have them in cue, no door, miss the bad guy, through the window and into your neighbors house! Just sayin’...
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  #124  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:34 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
Its awfully FUN to CHERRY pick shooting cases to prove the point you want. Its really easy and done every day.

Heres the thing, for every case you show that someone was failed to be stopped by a .22lr, I can show you someone that WAS.

When you make your point on "fmj bad for self defense" I can show you cases were it was perfectly fine to drop an attacker. When you point out how wonderful jacketed bullets are, I can show you failures of them that made international news.

Remember few years back in texas where the teenager at home with dad pumped 60 rounds of HP and JSP .223 Remington into 3 home invaders who ALL managed to go 45-120 yards FROM THE POINT OF SHOOTING to finally falling down...
Where did I say "fmj bad for self defense"?
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  #125  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:51 AM
devildog93 devildog93 is offline
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Well if i shoot my neighbor in his house then my training has failed. I'm not worried about that at all. To me, it is like car owners being worried about the size of their wheels. Too many people worried about edge dressing instead of the meat and potatoes in my opinion. Pretty sure i can keep my field of fire straight. It also simplifies ammo quite a bit.
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