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  #76  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:39 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by f1racefan View Post
Rather than continue the caliber debate from "opinion", how about some factual data. Thinking that .45 is the "only" caliber, and that every hit instantly ends the fight is a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
Interesting quote:

"There is no incremental gain you get moving up to a higher caliber that is going to overshadow your ability to shoot the lower caliber better."
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  #77  
Old 04-23-2020, 06:14 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Vaccaro View Post
Tractor having through your thread twice haven't seen that you made your decision.
I suggest a Colt lightweight commander 9mm. You specifically said you want a 9mm. I have seen them in our area for $999. Thats right at the top of your budget, but they are fine guns & carry like a dream.
Good luck, searching is half the fun.
Let us know.
Frank - I’ve been reading thru this thread daily, more often now that I’ve really nothing planned during the day. There’s been Lots of great info and discussion. Never intended this to become a 9mm vs everything else, but it’s been interesting and, in a way, educational. Just for info, I have eleven other 1911s (45ACP, 38SUPER and 357Sig, Govtm and Commander sized), so I’m familiar with the firearm. I’m narrowing my field of prospects to the SA EMP4 Contour Carry and the Colt Lightweight Commander both in 9mm. Price/value will be the deciding factor. This would give me an even dozen 1911s and one in 9mm to add to all my other 9s.
Tractor, my response was that you wanted a 9mm I respect that & feel a fellow should get what he wants. Ive bought & sold or traded too many guns that were "almost" what I wanted.
Good luck, check into that Colt lightweight Commander I mentioned. They are nice guns on the edge of your budget.
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  #78  
Old 04-23-2020, 07:26 PM
mhl6493 mhl6493 is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
passx, you are still just saying you don't like an informed opinion - you prefer your own logic - based on.....what you see on the Internet, right?
I'm not sure why you "stirred" all of those rifle calibers into the discussion - Huh/What? I never said a word about "bullet mass" - that's your perception, somehow. This topic is not remotely that simple. It requires study. And all of us agree rifles work better than pistols, last time I checked. If you want a 9MM 1911, buy a Super .38 - and add a 9MM barrel - but I am saying it makes more sense to carry the larger cartridge, not the small one, since the gun handles both. They are not equal. 9MM's only advantage is cheap ammo - not ballistic performance.

And you are welcome to use that logic at your own peril, and carry a comfortable, light, small 9MM that has all the punch of a .38 Special - because you feel better buying into propaganda put out by a "name" Federal organization that due to our unfortunate PC legal environment has to hire (and qualify) over educated (got to have a degree!) cop chicks and pajama boys ("Diversity, you know") and thus has to somehow justify a caliber they rejected, and justify why they are adopting a wimp gun for softer, "modern" Agents (and no, I am not saying every recent hire is a lightweight loser, I know some absolutely great FBI people and have worked with them professionally) is absolutely equal to the more powerful weapons of the past (the ones that their urbanized current era hires could not qualify with.) Don't feel bad, you have a lot of company among folks here, who have to "be one of the herd" and "follow the latest trends". Lemmings to the sea. Gun stores are staying alive on the 9MM "Wave". You probably think Oswald shot JFK, too. That's what the FBI said.

READ Marshall and Sanow, if you want a scientific approach - and examine their methodology - they used ACTUAL STREET SHOOTING results, with police reports and autopsy findings - and correlated them backward, with lots of statistical analysis to prove or disprove the validity of all the numerous testing methods. Not shooting jello with false assumptions crafted to reach a Predetermined Conclusion - that has Zero to do with Observed Results in actual shootings.

But the ideas put forth in Federal's "FBI Marketing Video" you enjoyed so much, that Velocity and Energy mean nothing - that the laws of Physics have been repealed - are ridiculous on on their face. The .357 Magnum has a 96% stopping record - at around 1400 fps. High energy, velocity and a BIG Temporary Stretch Cavity - that the commentators dismiss so cavalierly. Neuogenic Shock - look it up in the book "Stopping Power", by Marshall and Sanow. The .38 Special, same bullet at 1100 - is in the 60% range - and is the same bore diameter as your 9MM. Same diameter, same speed, guess what - it will do the same thing. Believe what you want. I have a 9MM barrel for a 1911 for cheap practice ammo - if I carry that gun it will be wearing it's original Super .38 barrel, with Super or 9x23 ammo - with .357 performance. But I really prefer the 10MM - which the FBI adopted - then dropped, when they got a lawsuit from females and minorities that claimed the S&W 1076/10MM was chosen deliberately to prevent them from qualifying - too heavy, too much recoil, too big to hide on a 5' girl, etc. A "discriminatory handgun"! It's all politics and Political Correctness, my friend - Not Real World Terminal Performance on human beings.

I have been a Firearms Instructor and Armorer for over thirty years, and this is not a casual subject to me. It's a free country, and we each pay our money and takes our chances. I just have followed this discussion long enough to know a con job by PC bureaucrats when I see it. CC
Col. Colt, to say I enjoy and learn from reading your posts would be an understatement. Thank you, sir!
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  #79  
Old 04-24-2020, 09:16 AM
belly gun belly gun is offline
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Law enforcement needs differ from civilian by about 180* - as for hiring practices; is there anyone here who will argue that any Federal agency has NOT been a repository for the politically connected since the founding of our great Nation?
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  #80  
Old 04-24-2020, 01:21 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSSI View Post
Interesting quote:

"There is no incremental gain you get moving up to a higher caliber that is going to overshadow your ability to shoot the lower caliber better."
That is an interesting, if poorly thought out, quote. NO Incremental gain??? None? Really? This assumes the difference between a truly effective round (say, a .357 Magnum at 96% effectiveness in actual shootings) and the lesser effective round being currently promoted [and this after the FBI rejected the 9MM for the 10MM and the .40 S&W] (say, a 9MM at an actual 1100 fps, equivalent to a .38 Special Treasury load - same diameter and speed - in the 60% range) means absolutely nothing in your calculations. Clever, if deceptive words. And this is at the very core of the FBI's Lie to justify a Politically Correct lowering of hiring and training standards.

I assume this means that you (and the FBI) are immediately dumping all you centerfire pistols and replacing them tomorrow morning with new Ruger MarkIV Targets in .22 Long Rifle?

"Minute of man" results, on flesh when it counts are far different from shooting paper targets. In my Police Academy, because I had been shooting IPSC for eight years, I (and several others) produced some pretty good targets - and our class was quickly and firmly handed a different perspective by our Instructors that I had never even considered before.

It was pointed out to us that if you are putting all the shots in "one hole", you are NOT going to get as good results as you would from a "hand size" dispersion in the center of the chest - and you are shooting too slow, too much precision when speed is important. The idea was to speed up to achieve that hand sized dispersion and to create damage in more than one spot - hit the lungs AND the heart AND the spine, etc., stay centered, but increase the amount of bone and tissue destroyed. If your first two center mass shots did not work, immediately apply a (more carefully aimed) shot to the head - he's wearing Armor, is "Medically enhanced" (drugs) or his extreme Determination level demands a slightly firmer convincing that he should stop his actions. That still seems a reasonable approach to me. (I suspect it is also why Col. Jeff Cooper found a 3-4" at 25 yards pistol to have quite adequate accuracy for self defense work.)

The public would be outraged if all police shootings simply started with head shots - "Cops as Executioners, Judge and Jury" - and there would immediately be riots in the minority communities - but if you have done what a reasonable man would do - your opponent has a chance to survive and stand trial, and then it is obviously necessary to "kill his computer" to save yourself, that is, so far, legally and morally acceptable. I will be surprised if the all too common current police fad of shooting one criminal with a minor caliber high capacity pistol until slide lock stops the action does not produce some interesting civil lawsuits for "Excessive Force" and lead to the same outcry, again due to poor training and failures to stop in two or three rounds.

It is a clever turn of a phrase, though - and will help a lot of people justify "choosing the easy (and cheap) button" - instead of the more effective.... CC

PS - If you must carry a Minor caliber, consider using Magsafe, Glaser or Liberty high velocity ammo - for at least the first round or two in the magazine. (Yeah, I know, these are pretty expensive loads, but what is your life worth?) CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-24-2020 at 01:59 PM.
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  #81  
Old 04-24-2020, 01:38 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
That is an interesting, if poorly thought out, quote. It assumes the difference between a truly effective round (say, a .357 Magnum at 96% effectiveness in actual shootings) and the lesser effective round you are promoting (say, either a .38 Special or 9MM at an actual 1100 fps (same thing), in the 60% range) means absolutely nothing in your value system. Clever, if stupid words. And it is at the very core of the FBI's Lie to justify a Politically Correct lowering of hiring and training standards. I assume this means that you (and the FBI) are immediately dumping all you centerfire pistols and replacing them tomorrow morning with new Ruger MarkIV Targets in .22 Long Rifle?

"Minute of man" results, on flesh when it counts are far different from shooting paper targets. In my Police Academy, because I had been shooting IPSC for eight years, I (and several others) produced some pretty good targets - and our class was quickly handed a different perspective by our Instructors that I had never even considered before.

It was pointed out to us that if you are putting all the shots in "one hole", you are NOT going to get as good results as you would from a "hand size" dispersion in the center of the chest. The idea was to damage more than one spot - hit the lungs AND the heart and the spine, etc., stay centered, but increase the amount of bone and tissue destroyed. If your first two center mass shots did not work, immediately apply a (more carefully aimed) shot to the head - he's wearing Armor, is "Medically enhanced" (drugs) or his extreme Determination level demands a slightly firmer convincing that he should stop his actions. That still seems a reasonable approach to me. (I suspect it is also why Col. Jeff Cooper found a 3-4" at 25 yards pistol to have quite adequate accuracy for self defense work.)

The public would be outraged if all police shootings simply started with head shots - "Cops as Executioners, Judge and Jury" - and there would immediately be riots in the minority communities - but if you have done what a reasonable man would do - your opponent has a chance to survive and stand trial, and then it is obviously necessary to "kill his computer" to save yourself, that is, so far, legally and morally acceptable.

It is a clever turn of a phrase, though - and will fool a lot of people. CC
The quote makes sense to me, to anyone who isn't a 'gun guy' (IMHO most handgun owners), more capacity from a caliber they're more likely to hit the target with is better. I referenced earlier an article I saw where even gun mag guys were hitting the target less often with the more powerful calibers in a test. A .45 definitely can batter your hands more, I believe Col. Jeff Cooper developed arthritis in his hands and wrist from years of the 1911.

A .22 LR (which actually kills a lot of people) will be shot more precisely and with faster follow-up shots than a .44 magnum, where that cost/benefit perfect caliber between those extremes is, is for each individual to decide.

The above refers to civilians, I agree it is crazy for the FBI to reduce their firearm standard (or physical fitness ones) due to PC. I would hope all FBI agents are 'gun guys'.

Last edited by CSSI; 04-24-2020 at 01:49 PM.
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  #82  
Old 04-24-2020, 03:52 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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Here's a less biased actual range test with some history of the controversy thrown in - using the same gun (Glock 17/22) in 9MM and .40, and same targets, same ammo types, hard and soft targets, accuracy tests. Harrell is a pretty independent reporter. And he does not need or seek the FBI's favor for a paycheck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0

Give it a look. CC

PS - Spoiler Alert - the 9MM loses. It is not more accurate, and it does not perform as well in real targets representing the human torso - not jello. Harrell is a good shooter, but so should each and every one of our Law Enforcement Professionals be, cranking off rounds downtown in a city. That is what we pay them for, and their personal survival is at stake, too. Remedial training for those who don't make the cut the first time would be fair, but shooting well is part of your job description, if you wear a badge. We were reminded that not only the City would be sued if we hit a civilian acting under color of Law, but we would also be sued as Individuals, personally and civilly. CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-24-2020 at 04:33 PM.
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  #83  
Old 04-24-2020, 05:13 PM
belly gun belly gun is offline
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talk about perfect timing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl6gpMrw6NQ

How about that with the 9mm you can practice at least twice as much as with the 45 - it then follows that one would be twice as proficient with the 9 than with the howitzer.

Glad to see the civilian distinction being introduced because if and when 'we' need a gun the simple act of showing one will take care of over 90% of the threats should one have to shoot the distance will be very very close, the incident will last less than three seconds and the number of rounds fired will total less than two *from what I have read*

Accepting this, and -I- do we are most likely, well served by even the 'lowly' .22 lr, though I would opt for at least the .22 wmr, ideally a 9mm and a belly gun of course.

By the way I have found articles that claim a revolver is far more intimidating than a semi, again from the civilian perspective.
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  #84  
Old 04-24-2020, 05:20 PM
belly gun belly gun is offline
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to be clear: I support the right of anyone to buy/carry any gun they wish, in any caliber they wish with as much capacity as they wish-heck buy yourself a belt feed adapter for that plastic master blaster and carry 5000 rds on your back if you feel like it........
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  #85  
Old 04-24-2020, 07:28 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
Here's a less biased actual range test with some history of the controversy thrown in - using the same gun (Glock 17/22) in 9MM and .40, and same targets, same ammo types, hard and soft targets, accuracy tests. Harrell is a pretty independent reporter. And he does not need or seek the FBI's favor for a paycheck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0

Give it a look. CC

PS - Spoiler Alert - the 9MM loses. It is not more accurate, and it does not perform as well in real targets representing the human torso - not jello. Harrell is a good shooter, but so should each and every one of our Law Enforcement Professionals be, cranking off rounds downtown in a city. That is what we pay them for, and their personal survival is at stake, too. Remedial training for those who don't make the cut the first time would be fair, but shooting well is part of your job description, if you wear a badge. We were reminded that not only the City would be sued if we hit a civilian acting under color of Law, but we would also be sued as Individuals, personally and civilly. CC
If you're saying a .40 is as easy to control and shoot accurately than a 9mm, we disagree. I have both.
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  #86  
Old 04-25-2020, 09:13 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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The caliber debate will go on forever in to the future until we all have laser guns when it will be which laser red or green does the most damage. A .357 is great but when you are unable to make an accurate follow up shot because of recoil / flinch who cares. 9mm is no good unless you hit what you aim at. Unlike TV I believe the last study NY cops hit rate is under 20%. Of course the famous NY Glock trigger is no help. In one legendary six cops fired 90 rounds hitting the bad guys SIX times and innocent bystanders NINE times. So perhaps we should Worry less about caliber and more about putting a couple of rounds accurately into the target.
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  #87  
Old 04-25-2020, 09:16 AM
BADB0Y BADB0Y is offline
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Originally Posted by old558 View Post
Springfield RO Champion has worked for me.
Best of luck.
X2 for this!

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  #88  
Old 04-25-2020, 11:17 AM
glider glider is offline
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There is the intimidation factor, that is a really big hole in the end of a 45ACP. It is possible to handload a 9mm round that is pretty damn effective but unless you are a re loader that's not a consideration.
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  #89  
Old 04-27-2020, 01:56 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by glider View Post
There is the intimidation factor, that is a really big hole in the end of a 45ACP. It is possible to handload a 9mm round that is pretty damn effective but unless you are a re loader that's not a consideration.
Either will stop a perp if placed in the vitals, if not, neither will. Here's a video of a guy chasing off two armed perps with a .380:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJXBBAA5fjc

As far as stopping the crime, there would have been no different outcome if he had had a 10mm.
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  #90  
Old 04-27-2020, 11:51 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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CSSI, I was going to leave this thread alone - but, well, we must disagree, again. Armed robbery is a very serious Felony crime. Merely Chasing them away is not the best answer.
The hero chased them out of the establishment and they escaped - to do more harm another day - even if they did get ID'd at the hospital later and got arrested, they will be back on the street, possibly with more lethal results for some poor innocent the next time, sooner or later. It is excellent that he stopped the robbery, to be sure, but they escaped. That is not an optimum outcome for Society.

Two rounds of 10MM full power (I carry Corbon Powerball in a 5" Delta - 135 grain @ 1400 fps) or, .357, per perp - and they would never have left the building, and would have quite probably both been either DRT (Dead Right There) or suficently damaged to be unable to rob, rape or kill anyone else - ever again. The .380 load carried obviously did not make enough of an impression on them. CC

A couple of Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper's quotes on the subject:

If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim.

Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!

Would the outcome have been different? Yes, it would have been very different with an adequate caliber. Two dangerous felons, one way or another, off the street. CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-28-2020 at 12:18 AM.
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  #91  
Old 04-28-2020, 08:18 AM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
CSSI, I was going to leave this thread alone - but, well, we must disagree, again.
That's OK, what a boring world if everyone agreed on everything.

Quote:
Armed robbery is a very serious Felony crime. Merely Chasing them away is not the best answer.
The hero chased them out of the establishment and they escaped - to do more harm another day - even if they did get ID'd at the hospital later and got arrested, they will be back on the street, possibly with more lethal results for some poor innocent the next time, sooner or later. It is excellent that he stopped the robbery, to be sure, but they escaped. That is not an optimum outcome for Society.

Two rounds of 10MM full power (I carry Corbon Powerball in a 5" Delta - 135 grain @ 1400 fps) or, .357, per perp - and they would never have left the building, and would have quite probably both been either DRT (Dead Right There) or suficently damaged to be unable to rob, rape or kill anyone else - ever again. The .380 load carried obviously did not make enough of an impression on them. CC
What? They were wounded and tripping over each other getting away. Even if they were not caught at the hospital, that experience probably lessened their inclination to repeat that crime. As much as I support the death penalty, IMHO the purpose of concealed carry is to stop crime and prevent myself and loved ones from being victims. If showing a gun or just firing a warning shot does it, OK. With the crazy judges and DAs out there, killing a perp puts yourself in danger of possible serious legal problems or jail time, I hate to say. There was a local guy who saw a perp breaking into a building, called 911 and followed him in his truck. The perp stopped his van, broke the guy's driver's side window, hit him repeatedly in the face and tried to pull him from his truck. He shot the perp once in the face and killed him (with a .380 BTW). He was initially charged with murder and it cost him over $20,000 in legal fees before it was all over.

Here's the story: https://www.koat.com/article/man-cla...ooting/5030749

Last edited by CSSI; 04-28-2020 at 08:22 AM.
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  #92  
Old 04-28-2020, 08:40 AM
Donn75B Donn75B is offline
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Does anyone have any comments on the Alpha Foxtrot 1911 9mm. The price ($889) looks good for what you get. I’m considering it. Also looking at the Colt Combat Commander ($999).
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  #93  
Old 04-28-2020, 10:18 AM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Interesting info on the 1911 .45 vs. 9mm question from a review of the Colt Competition by Ed Head:

"I understand outfits like Wilson Combat are selling a lot more 1911s chambered in 9mm these days than .45ACP. The same story is happening at Colt and their 9mm Competition Pistol is one example of the guns they’ve made in both calibers. Across the board, Colt 1911s in 9mm outsell those in .45ACP by a substantial margin."
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  #94  
Old 04-29-2020, 05:26 PM
Donn75B Donn75B is offline
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I wonder if the 1911 9mm v. 45ACP sales numbers are due to: 1) ammo cost, and 2) recoil difference.
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  #95  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:52 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by CSSI View Post
Interesting info on the 1911 .45 vs. 9mm question from a review of the Colt Competition by Ed Head:

"I understand outfits like Wilson Combat are selling a lot more 1911s chambered in 9mm these days than .45ACP. The same story is happening at Colt and their 9mm Competition Pistol is one example of the guns they’ve made in both calibers. Across the board, Colt 1911s in 9mm outsell those in .45ACP by a substantial margin."
CORRECTION: I got an email from someone in Colt customer service today who said 9mm does NOT outsell .45 in 1911s. I guess you can't believe everything you hear on the internet.
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  #96  
Old 04-29-2020, 11:00 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by Donn75B View Post
I wonder if the 1911 9mm v. 45ACP sales numbers are due to: 1) ammo cost, and 2) recoil difference.
I would think so, I hear of lots of older shooters who appreciate the lighter recoil. The .45 will beat you up, Col. JeffCooper had arthritis in later years from years of shooting the .45 1911.

Not sure if this is true, but I've heard in the early days of JMB's development of the 1911, it was based on a .38 cal round but was of course later changed to .45 due to US military requirements. If so, the 1911 does have some kind of history with a 9mm diameter round.
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  #97  
Old 04-30-2020, 12:13 AM
rlmcat rlmcat is offline
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kimber custom compact. Mine is a 1997/. 45

I carry it a lot and shoot it a lot too. No fte, no stovepipes. I carry in a forward Cant DeSantis. Smooth in smooth out. Trigger pull is 3.8. with no work done to it.
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