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  #51  
Old 04-16-2020, 08:10 AM
glider glider is offline
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The only reason to have a 9mm 1911 would be for range use, they are cheap to shoot. And the right one can be very accurate. I have a D.W. PM9 that is a lot of fun at the range, very accurate, doesn't kick at all, cheap to shoot. I suppose you could carry it for defense but there are better choices, a 45ACP would be my first choice. A 38 super, 9x23, 357Sig, 40S&W, 357, 45L.C., 44 special, 41 special and mag, and this isn't a complete list of the calibers that outperform a 9mm for defense.
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  #52  
Old 04-16-2020, 09:44 AM
shooter1201 shooter1201 is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
passx, I'd love to see documentation that the 9MM has killed more people than any other cartridge. Lots of statements made on the Internet - that are assertions that seem obvious to he who is making the assertion, not facts.
Now if you include all the people killed by 9MM submachine guns (MP40s and Stens) using multiple hits in WWII and since, that might help your case, but I don't know of any statistics kept in every nation on who was killed by what caliber.

The problem in handgun fights is that yes, you centered him with your 9MM and he died from it - but not before putting two or three rounds into you as he slowly bled out and killing you, too!

The purpose of handguns is to end fights. The quicker you do that, the more likely you will survive. I just don't think the 9MM is likely to ever be "quicker" - or even as quick - or more sure than more powerful, proven rounds. CC
Per Col. Cooper: 'The purpose of s handgun is to fight your way to a long gun.'
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  #53  
Old 04-17-2020, 11:48 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Friends don't let friends buy a 1911 in 9mm.
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  #54  
Old 04-17-2020, 02:47 PM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
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  #55  
Old 04-17-2020, 03:07 PM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
passx, I'd love to see documentation that the 9MM has killed more people than any other cartridge. Lots of statements made on the Internet - that are assertions that seem obvious to he who is making the assertion, not facts.
Now if you include all the people killed by 9MM submachine guns (MP40s and Stens) using multiple hits in WWII and since, that might help your case, but I don't know of any statistics kept in every nation on who was killed by what caliber.

The problem in handgun fights is that yes, you centered him with your 9MM and he died from it - but not before putting two or three rounds into you as he slowly bled out and killing you, too!

The purpose of handguns is to end fights. The quicker you do that, the more likely you will survive. I just don't think the 9MM is likely to ever be "quicker" - or even as quick - or more sure than more powerful, proven rounds. CC
Rather than continue the caliber debate from "opinion", how about some factual data. Thinking that .45 is the "only" caliber, and that every hit instantly ends the fight is a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
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  #56  
Old 04-18-2020, 02:11 PM
Darkwood 1 Darkwood 1 is offline
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From my personal experience, I would recommend a commander size pistol over the officer if you can deal with the slightly larger size. The officer size will be more finicky than the larger size 1911. I have a Dan Wesson ECO in 9mm and it runs great with certain ammo and does not like certain other cartridge profiles. My 5" will run the same ammo that the ECO does not like just fine.

A friend of mine has the Ruger officer size 9mm and has had quite a few failures to go into battery with 115 gr. FMJ's.

I personally will not buy another officer size 1911 even though I really like the size.
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  #57  
Old 04-19-2020, 05:00 AM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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f1racefan - Watched Federals "Marketing to/for the FBI" video. Not impressed. "Energy does not matter." "Velocity does not matter". Just a carefully crafted justification to fool anyone who has not looked hard at the subject because the people the FBI (and all law enforcement) are hiring today (no height, weight requirements, no preference for warriors/military - instead, hiring preference based on a college degree and "diversity" standards) need a "Mulligan" to cut it. A 9MM, they MIGHT be able to qualify. A .40 or .45, or heaven forbid, a .357 and they fail. And most of the FBI's work, to be fair, is investigations lawyer and accountant stuff, not combat. Which is why the FBI should not be dragging the LE Market around by the nose with their huge dollar contract clout that everyone - and apparently Federal - must comply with their views/wishes. Read Marshall and Sanow's "Stopping Power" book - and real accounts of real shootings. Shooting Jello through blue jeans equates to nothing useful.

Being Politically Correct, in this case, may just get you killed. CC
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  #58  
Old 04-19-2020, 05:17 AM
triaxle triaxle is offline
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I have a Colt full size 9 mm in stainless and its been flawless . I would buy one again , 800 to 900 range .
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  #59  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:01 AM
glider glider is offline
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Since the Comey fiasco I really am disappointed. I don't even want to discuss anything concerning the FBI and place ZERO credibility on anything they say. In my opinion they need to be completely reorganized from the top down. There should be people go to jail. What we know is probably the tip of the iceberg, who knows what abuse of power has been done in the past.
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  #60  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:51 AM
MG1912 MG1912 is offline
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I have a new Combat Commander (all steel) 9mm Colt. I see several people here have recommended this pistol. I have 10,285 rounds through it (yes, I count every round). I absolutely love it, everything about it. I like the distinctive Colt looks. I like the undercut trigger guard. I like the smooth front strap. I like the wide, new style of cocking serrations. I like not having front cocking serrations. I just like this gun.

However, it did not run very well when I first bought it. It had a terrible, mushy trigger, and it had extractor issues. It was not reliable out of the box, and it was not fun to shoot. I also did not know at the time when I bought my Colt that WC ETM 10-round magazines were notorious for breaking long-nose 9mm ejectors (even Nighthawk owners had this problem), so there was some time and heartache figuring that problem out because I bought a bunch of WC mags.

Now that everything is squared away, it's a dream of a gun. Colt has serious QC and CS issues -- and has for years -- which is why my gun shipped with a crap trigger and crap extractor tune... but the base guns are still rock solid and in spec, which is why many gunsmiths prefer using Colt as their base guns. If you're lucky, you get a "good" one from the factory. If your unlucky, you'll be one of many who gets a wonky one. If you are wise, you will take it to a good gunsmith, skip Colt CS entirely, and get your gun done right. If you're cheap or unwise, you will send it to Colt and cross your fingers. If you are lucky, you will get it back in a few weeks or months, and it is fixed. If you are unlucky, you'll be one of many who waits for months, and it still doesn't get fixed.

So even though I have a Colt, and I carry that prancing pony with pride, and I love my weapon... I can't really fully recommend any pistol coming straight from Colt. I'd just be lying if I told you I was sure you wouldn't have problems. Plus, after all I've spent on this Colt now (refinish, action job, new sights, etc.), it's definitely in EB, NH, and WC territory. But it's unique, runs like a top (now), and is absolutely my personal gun.

So if you are thinking you will do some customization (trigger job, etc.), Colt is good. Otherwise, I'd steer you to the next tier of guns. But since you are looking for under $1,000 and don't want to get a bunch of work done, get a Dan Wesson.
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  #61  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:43 AM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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I have never thought Wilson Combat magazines were as good as Chip McCormick - design wise. Now Wilson owns both, but so far the CMCs are still their own design and, for me, have always worked 100%. As for production grade triggers - under $1000 guns don't get tuned triggers, just how it is.

The extractor tension thing is a matter of frustration to many - Colt just drops them in without testing, but to old time 1911 people, this is a simple skill all 1911 owners need to learn anyway - and you can tune it yourself in 15 minutes once you know how. I prefer Cylinder and Slide or EGW extractors, generally, and try to have an extra, tuned and profiled, for each 1911 I own, along with extra spring sets. Seldom need an extractor, but you will always need fresh springs, if you shoot the gun. CC
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  #62  
Old 04-20-2020, 10:06 AM
passx passx is offline
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So I’ll stir the pot a bit here,,,, the logic of the “superior” .45 mass bullet thing then means that not only 9mm is inferior so is a .223, .5.56, 7.62, .38/.357, 30-30, 10mm & .40 etc and after all the testing done that the military, fbi and police departments are all wrong in not carrying a .45,,,,, again while I am a .45 fanboy the data ain’t there. Just opinions at this point.

I’ll add that my 9mm EMP4 eats everything I feed it, but if I were buying again and after getting to shoot billy1911’s 9mm range officer champion that’s the way I’d go because it’s cheaper than the emp and uses the common 9mm 1911 magazines used by most 9mm 1911’s so they’re more commonly available and a bit cheaper vs the emp only mags, if you’re going to carry it then the emp prints a little smaller and is a bit lighter. I really like my emp4 but like I said if I was buying again it’d be the champion, just makes better sense.

Last edited by passx; 04-20-2020 at 10:13 AM.
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  #63  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:25 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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Just to throw my two cents in here. First as I mentioned before I have a Kimber Target that has been flawless and in fact I have ordered an Aegis Pro but with wait times and shutdowns when I get it is in doubt. Both 9mm's.

For MG1912: The day I order a gun with the expectation that I may have to spend $1000 to make it shoutable I think I will never order it. I understand 1911's can be more finicky however both my Sigs and my Dan Wesson as well as my S&W that I sold have been perfect out of the box. The only issue I ever had with my Kimbers is they never really liked JHPs much. But to buy a 1911 that says Colt on it and think it is OK to spend big bucks to get it right just so you can have a Colt seems well ________. Fill in the blank.

Also as a mag discussion. I have always had good luck with Wilsons. To get better results with JHPs in my Kimbers I changed the springs to Wolfe which worked better. However I ordered Ed Brown mags that were terrible with failures to feed properly and followers that stood up. I sent them back to Ed Brown at their request but have not had a chance to check out the new ones. Name brands are not always the answer.

Last edited by SCfromNY; 04-21-2020 at 08:43 AM.
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  #64  
Old 04-21-2020, 01:14 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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passx, you are still just saying you don't like an informed opinion - you prefer your own logic - based on.....what you see on the Internet, right?
I'm not sure why you "stirred" all of those rifle calibers into the discussion - Huh/What? I never said a word about "bullet mass" - that's your perception, somehow. This topic is not remotely that simple. It requires study. And all of us agree rifles work better than pistols, last time I checked. If you want a 9MM 1911, buy a Super .38 - and add a 9MM barrel - but I am saying it makes more sense to carry the larger cartridge, not the small one, since the gun handles both. They are not equal. 9MM's only advantage is cheap ammo - not ballistic performance.

And you are welcome to use that logic at your own peril, and carry a comfortable, light, small 9MM that has all the punch of a .38 Special - because you feel better buying into propaganda put out by a "name" Federal organization that due to our unfortunate PC legal environment has to hire (and qualify) over educated (got to have a degree!) cop chicks and pajama boys ("Diversity, you know") and thus has to somehow justify a caliber they rejected, and justify why they are adopting a wimp gun for softer, "modern" Agents (and no, I am not saying every recent hire is a lightweight loser, I know some absolutely great FBI people and have worked with them professionally) is absolutely equal to the more powerful weapons of the past (the ones that their urbanized current era hires could not qualify with.) Don't feel bad, you have a lot of company among folks here, who have to "be one of the herd" and "follow the latest trends". Lemmings to the sea. Gun stores are staying alive on the 9MM "Wave". You probably think Oswald shot JFK, too. That's what the FBI said.

READ Marshall and Sanow, if you want a scientific approach - and examine their methodology - they used ACTUAL STREET SHOOTING results, with police reports and autopsy findings - and correlated them backward, with lots of statistical analysis to prove or disprove the validity of all the numerous testing methods. Not shooting jello with false assumptions crafted to reach a Predetermined Conclusion - that has Zero to do with Observed Results in actual shootings.

But the ideas put forth in Federal's "FBI Marketing Video" you enjoyed so much, that Velocity and Energy mean nothing - that the laws of Physics have been repealed - are ridiculous on on their face. The .357 Magnum has a 96% stopping record - at around 1400 fps. High energy, velocity and a BIG Temporary Stretch Cavity - that the commentators dismiss so cavalierly. Neuogenic Shock - look it up in the book "Stopping Power", by Marshall and Sanow. The .38 Special, same bullet at 1100 - is in the 60% range - and is the same bore diameter as your 9MM. Same diameter, same speed, guess what - it will do the same thing. Believe what you want. I have a 9MM barrel for a 1911 for cheap practice ammo - if I carry that gun it will be wearing it's original Super .38 barrel, with Super or 9x23 ammo - with .357 performance. But I really prefer the 10MM - which the FBI adopted - then dropped, when they got a lawsuit from females and minorities that claimed the S&W 1076/10MM was chosen deliberately to prevent them from qualifying - too heavy, too much recoil, too big to hide on a 5' girl, etc. A "discriminatory handgun"! It's all politics and Political Correctness, my friend - Not Real World Terminal Performance on human beings.

I have been a Firearms Instructor and Armorer for over thirty years, and this is not a casual subject to me. It's a free country, and we each pay our money and takes our chances. I just have followed this discussion long enough to know a con job by PC bureaucrats when I see it. CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-21-2020 at 01:54 PM.
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  #65  
Old 04-21-2020, 07:33 PM
MartyJK MartyJK is offline
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Smoking Deal on a Commander sized 9mm 1911

https://gun.deals/product/new-lsi-ci...tm_campaign=ne
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  #66  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:36 AM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
passx, I'd love to see documentation that the 9MM has killed more people than any other cartridge. Lots of statements made on the Internet - that are assertions that seem obvious to he who is making the assertion, not facts.
Now if you include all the people killed by 9MM submachine guns (MP40s and Stens) using multiple hits in WWII and since, that might help your case, but I don't know of any statistics kept in every nation on who was killed by what caliber.

The problem in handgun fights is that yes, you centered him with your 9MM and he died from it - but not before putting two or three rounds into you as he slowly bled out and killing you, too!

The purpose of handguns is to end fights. The quicker you do that, the more likely you will survive. I just don't think the 9MM is likely to ever be "quicker" - or even as quick - or more sure than more powerful, proven rounds. CC
According to this, there is very little real world difference between 9mm and .45 ACP in self defense situations: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

And you get more capacity with the 9mm, and with the softer recoil will probably shoot it better too.
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  #67  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:19 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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CSSI - Did you READ this so called "Study"??? Another Internet Commando with no credentials and lousy methods and assumptions, going with the flow.

This "study" is from a regular guy, like you and me with a day job, gathering up "what he can find" (also on the Internet, I'm sure) and on a flawed, very limited data base - then drawing up charts and conclusions - which got on an internet forum and somehow THAT makes his conclusions Credible?? Mr. Nobody's own charts concluded that the .32 Colt Automatic Pistol (.32 ACP) was the top stopper in his "study" - and he said he didn't believe his own conclusion. WHY are you citing this garbage as proof of anything?

Do you see a problem with this? Garbage in, Garbage Out, as the Computer guys say. His assumptions and weak database should have jumped off the page at you. But "If it's on the Internet, It MUST BE TRUE!!!"

Real Studies - By REAL, serious Researchers like Marshall and Sanow (working cops with contacts to get real information) - take place over years and involve thousands of actual shooting reports backed up by police reports and autopsies - each of which must be examined to determine if it fits within reasonable parameters to even draw a conclusion from.

Sorry, but Joe Six Pack, wandering thru the Internet and cherry picking whatever he finds to fit his own personal bias, is NOT a credible study in any way.

Please, guys, THINK about what you are reading, what the person's bias, qualifications and capabilities really are, and examine and think about the Methodology he has chosen to use to reach those conclusions. Just because it made it to your computer screen or cell phone, doesn't mean it's not just a well meaning, but totally wrong, conclusion.

Federal Cartridge has big Federal Government and Police Contracts in the offing that they want the $$$ from - but will only get those contracts if they agree with what the PC Administrators at the FBI in charge of the purse strings want to hear. So I understand why they will jump on the bandwagon to justify ANYTHING the FBI says - they want a contract, the truth be damned.

This misbegotten Buckeye firearms post keeps popping up - but only because people are not thinking about what they are reading, and they want verification they were smart in their latest gun purchase.

The only justification for the 9MM as a primary, Every Day Carry (EDC) is if you are personally incapable of carrying or shooting anything more powerful effectively. If you have bad wrists, or are highly recoil sensitive, that may indeed be you.

But why would you carry a 1911 - a gun that comes in Much Better Calibers - 10MM, Super .38, 9x23, .45 ACP, remember the gun is the same size, same weight - with the least effective round it can chamber, aboard? Cheap practice ammo is the only factor I can find. To have a "9MM, Just like all my friends"? Because some government agency endorsed it? Ask yourself, what is their bias, their goal, their agenda? They have one, just like you and I. And it is NOT about weapon effectiveness - but to get their current "Diversity" candidates through qualifications easily so they don't get sued - like they already have been for the 10MM as "too difficult" for the girls and minority candidates in the past. Spend some time reading into this - it is a complex, but understandable subject - and it is about life and death - maybe yours! CC
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  #68  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:41 PM
JOHNGUM JOHNGUM is offline
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new 1911 9mm

Take a look at the fusion website. many models in 9mm .Shoot like a dream.
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  #69  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:24 PM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
CSSI - Did you READ this so called "Study"???
Yes, and I would ask you the same question.

"Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here."

If you've conducted another better study let me know.

Quote:
Another Internet Commando with no credentials and lousy methods and assumptions, going with the flow.
True of most of us here.

Quote:
This "study" is from a regular guy, like you and me with a day job, gathering up "what he can find" (also on the Internet, I'm sure) and on a flawed, very limited data base - then drawing up charts and conclusions - which got on an internet forum and somehow THAT makes his conclusions Credible?? Mr. Nobody's own charts concluded that the .32 Colt Automatic Pistol (.32 ACP) was the top stopper in his "study" - and he said he didn't believe his own conclusion. WHY are you citing this garbage as proof of anything?

Do you see a problem with this? Garbage in, Garbage Out, as the Computer guys say. His assumptions and weak database should have jumped off the page at you. But "If it's on the Internet, It MUST BE TRUE!!!"

Real Studies - By REAL, serious Researchers like Marshall and Sanow (working cops with contacts to get real information) - take place over years and involve thousands of actual shooting reports backed up by police reports and autopsies - each of which must be examined to determine if it fits within reasonable parameters to even draw a conclusion from.
Yes, those studies are mentioned in the link.

Quote:
Sorry, but Joe Six Pack, wandering thru the Internet and cherry picking whatever he finds to fit his own personal bias, is NOT a credible study in any way.

Please, guys, THINK about what you are reading, what the person's bias, qualifications and capabilities really are, and examine and think about the Methodology he has chosen to use to reach those conclusions. Just because it made it to your computer screen or cell phone, doesn't mean it's not just a well meaning, but totally wrong, conclusion.

Federal Cartridge has big Federal Government and Police Contracts in the offing that they want the $$$ from - but will only get those contracts if they agree with what the PC Administrators at the FBI in charge of the purse strings want to hear. So I understand why they will jump on the bandwagon to justify ANYTHING the FBI says - they want a contract, the truth be damned.

This misbegotten Buckeye firearms post keeps popping up - but only because people are not thinking about what they are reading, and they want verification they were smart in their latest gun purchase.

The only justification for the 9MM as a primary, Every Day Carry (EDC) is if you are personally incapable of carrying or shooting anything more powerful effectively. If you have bad wrists, or are highly recoil sensitive, that may indeed be you.
It is, having broken my wrist as a teen and being on the wrong side of 60. IMHO it is absolutely irresponsible to say that the average Joe or Jane shooter should carry a .45, 10MM and the like, when they would be better off with a caliber they can control. Unless they are serious shooters like you, they will get less hits where it counts and probably won't want to practice much with it. More hits with a 'lesser' caliber is better than fewer with a larger caliber. It reminds me of hunters that insist a .30-'06 is marginal, I got over magnumites a long time ago, and have taken two elk with a 6.5x55.

I personally pocket carry a Glock 42 .380, which caliber also does very well in the OH study. Due to a back issue I don't want to carry several pounds of steel on one side of my back all day. The fact is, a large percentage of perps will break off the attack and flee when shot at with ANY caliber, or probably when they see any gun. They may be criminals but they aren't stupid. They aren't going to stick around to decide what caliber you're shooting at them with.

Quote:
But why would you carry a 1911 - a gun that comes in Much Better Calibers - 10MM, Super .38, 9x23, .45 ACP, remember the gun is the same size, same weight - with the least effective round it can chamber, aboard? Cheap practice ammo is the only factor I can find. To have a "9MM, Just like all my friends"?
Maybe because they shoot it better than a larger caliber? Maybe they prefer the higher capacity, or due to finances are able to practice more with cheaper 9mm ammo.

Quote:
Because some government agency endorsed it? Ask yourself, what is their bias, their goal, their agenda? They have one, just like you and I. And it is NOT about weapon effectiveness - but to get their current "Diversity" candidates through qualifications easily so they don't get sued
If you're talking about law enforcement lowering standards for women (what do minority males have to do with it?) in the name of equality, I agree 100% that is bunk, but we're talking about civilians.

Quote:
- like they already have been for the 10MM as "too difficult" for the girls and minority candidates in the past. Spend some time reading into this - it is a complex, but understandable subject - and it is about life and death - maybe yours! CC
Bully for you if you shoot it well, but a 10MM absolutely is too difficult for the average shooter, many don't even like the 10MM short known as the .40 S&W. There is no reason for you to belittle others for making a different choice than you.

Here is a cop who shot a perp 14 times with a .45 and still did not stop him until a head shot. He now carries a 9mm for the higher capacity. I think he knows more than we internet commandos.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

If it's all about a bigger bullet why does the military use a .22 instead of a .45-70?

FYI, I have a Colt GCNM and a Les Baer in .45 that I shoot sparingly, I do appreciate Colt and the 1911 platform, I just wouldn't want to carry them, and for home defense prefer my higher capacity SIG 226 9mm with rail light.

Last edited by CSSI; 04-22-2020 at 11:43 PM.
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  #70  
Old 04-23-2020, 01:41 AM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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CSSI, thanks for your well written and polite response. The reasons you have given absolutely make sense for your use of the 9MM - and the .380.

When I can't carry anything bigger in my clothes of the day I occasionally slip a Colt Mustang Pocketlite with laser and a mix of Magsafe and Remington Golden Saber in my pocket - but with a good holster and a stiff belt I find both my 10MM Gold Cup and a Defender in .45 to be reasonably comfortable. The larger 5" gun actually feels better and more stable on the hip, but it is heavier over a full day, to be sure. I have never even noticed a difference in 10MM and .45 recoil - but I have never been recoil sensitive. Some are, and the 10MM and the .40 S&W may not be for them.

Anybody who shoots any normal human being 14 times without result I have sympathy for, but only six of those rounds (and that should have been enough, I agree) were apparently fight stopping, but somehow didn't. On occasion 12 gauge or .50 BMG has been reported to fail, too, on an extremely determined or medicinally enhanced opponent. The only improvement I can suggest is that the careful head shot he ended the fight with should have come long before he was deep into his third magazine, but I do not know if that was possible - again, I was not there. I was taught in the Academy that a failure to react by a perp to your perceived hits to the body means body armor or PCP/Angel dust, etc., and to immediately forget about anything but head or immobilization shots thereafter.

I read the Officer's report years ago and the 9MM and carrying three boxes of ammo are not the fixes he thinks they are - the 9MM is less likely to end the fight quickly, unless it greatly increases precision, and you are already dealing with an Instructor level Officer's skill level - with the .45.

You will note (and this can happen to me or you just as well - this is not a criticism, but an observation) that he realized, while into his third magazine he needed to slow down and concentrate. This is something I just took from his example and carefully stored away in the back of my mind. I fully understand this is hard to do when under assault, and I could have easily had his exact same problem - any one of us could. Something for all of us here to take a lesson from this obviously brave officer and keep in mind when the flag flys for us.

My training over the last forty years says two to the chest and if you still have a target, one to the head, followed by breaking down the pelvis as these shots are offered to us, rinse and repeat as necessary. I wasn't there - so I can't second guess his choices with any accuracy - but I am sure I would have done it differently. Sounds like he got too close and his options went away. Again, there are ammo/weapons failures and then their are tactical errors - and any one of us may find ourselves in an unexpected situation, through our opponents actions - or our own actions. I'm extremely glad this fine Officer won, and he gave all of us this sobering experience to ponder.

Please don't patronize me with the over simplistic "bigger bullet" comment - Terminal performance of rifles or handguns has never been about mere size/weight/diameter alone, but all the wounding components a given cartridge/load brings to the table at a given range, barrel length, load, situation, etc. A 5.56MM out of a 20" barrel at 200 yards and under can produce devastating wounds - the same round out of a 14.5" M4 at 350 may just punch a .22 caliber hole through and through with little shock and completely fail to incapacitate if nothing vital is hit - if you understand how the 5.56MM does it's work. (Velocity above 2550 fps at the target is necessary to produce the fragmentation/tissue destruction the 5.56 is very capable of.) At longer ranges the .45/70 would in fact be a much more reliable stopper - but the ammo is heavy, trajectory is like a rainbow - and the black powder smoke gives away your position .

Shoot what you can shoot well is indeed a valid concern, but don't try to convince me that the well documented physics of firearms ammunition, studied extensively by numerous well funded studies over the last 30-40 years, has somehow magically changed because the FBI needs to make sure "the new people" qualify.

Their position is political - and so is the ascendancy of the 9MM through the FBI's oversized influence in LE (and the lemming public's) buying patterns. Nobody wants to be seen as "different" anymore - we want to be "liked" and "run with the crowd". My heartburn with the situation is that it is causing many unsuspecting individuals to buy and carry under 4" 9MM compact handguns and load them with ammo that gives them 1100 or less fps - again, a .38 Special performance level - and think they are better armed than they were with a .45, a Super .38 - or a 10MM. In a similar incident, the US.mil bought the Beretta 92 and dumped the M1911 as a many million dollar bribe to get Italy to adopt he F-16 Fighter and to also allow US Tactical nukes on her soil. We got what we wanted, politically - Italy got cash. Again, nothing to do with a soldier's needs - just politics as usual.

The 9MM is not all of a sudden Magical. The laws of physics still apply - and to pretend differently may lead us to painfully and expensively (in blood) relearn what was already known, 100 years ago. CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-23-2020 at 02:18 AM. Reason: spelling, punctuation
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  #71  
Old 04-23-2020, 10:23 AM
CSSI CSSI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
CSSI, thanks for your well written and polite response. The reasons you have given absolutely make sense for your use of the 9MM - and the .380.

When I can't carry anything bigger in my clothes of the day I occasionally slip a Colt Mustang Pocketlite with laser and a mix of Magsafe and Remington Golden Saber in my pocket - but with a good holster and a stiff belt I find both my 10MM Gold Cup and a Defender in .45 to be reasonably comfortable. The larger 5" gun actually feels better and more stable on the hip, but it is heavier over a full day, to be sure. I have never even noticed a difference in 10MM and .45 recoil - but I have never been recoil sensitive. Some are, and the 10MM and the .40 S&W may not be for them.

Anybody who shoots any normal human being 14 times without result I have sympathy for, but only six of those rounds (and that should have been enough, I agree) were apparently fight stopping, but somehow didn't. On occasion 12 gauge or .50 BMG has been reported to fail, too, on an extremely determined or medicinally enhanced opponent. The only improvement I can suggest is that the careful head shot he ended the fight with should have come long before he was deep into his third magazine, but I do not know if that was possible - again, I was not there. I was taught in the Academy that a failure to react by a perp to your perceived hits to the body means body armor or PCP/Angel dust, etc., and to immediately forget about anything but head or immobilization shots thereafter.

I read the Officer's report years ago and the 9MM and carrying three boxes of ammo are not the fixes he thinks they are - the 9MM is less likely to end the fight quickly, unless it greatly increases precision, and you are already dealing with an Instructor level Officer's skill level - with the .45.

You will note (and this can happen to me or you just as well - this is not a criticism, but an observation) that he realized, while into his third magazine he needed to slow down and concentrate. This is something I just took from his example and carefully stored away in the back of my mind. I fully understand this is hard to do when under assault, and I could have easily had his exact same problem - any one of us could. Something for all of us here to take a lesson from this obviously brave officer and keep in mind when the flag flys for us.

My training over the last forty years says two to the chest and if you still have a target, one to the head, followed by breaking down the pelvis as these shots are offered to us, rinse and repeat as necessary. I wasn't there - so I can't second guess his choices with any accuracy - but I am sure I would have done it differently. Sounds like he got too close and his options went away. Again, there are ammo/weapons failures and then their are tactical errors - and any one of us may find ourselves in an unexpected situation, through our opponents actions - or our own actions. I'm extremely glad this fine Officer won, and he gave all of us this sobering experience to ponder.

Please don't patronize me with the over simplistic "bigger bullet" comment - Terminal performance of rifles or handguns has never been about mere size/weight/diameter alone, but all the wounding components a given cartridge/load brings to the table at a given range, barrel length, load, situation, etc. A 5.56MM out of a 20" barrel at 200 yards and under can produce devastating wounds - the same round out of a 14.5" M4 at 350 may just punch a .22 caliber hole through and through with little shock and completely fail to incapacitate if nothing vital is hit - if you understand how the 5.56MM does it's work. (Velocity above 2550 fps at the target is necessary to produce the fragmentation/tissue destruction the 5.56 is very capable of.) At longer ranges the .45/70 would in fact be a much more reliable stopper - but the ammo is heavy, trajectory is like a rainbow - and the black powder smoke gives away your position .

Shoot what you can shoot well is indeed a valid concern, but don't try to convince me that the well documented physics of firearms ammunition, studied extensively by numerous well funded studies over the last 30-40 years, has somehow magically changed because the FBI needs to make sure "the new people" qualify.
I agree the lowering of standards is wrong, political correctness kills. I take it you were in the FBI? FYI I've never shot a 10mm. My concern is with the 'average' shooter, who will never train enough with the larger calibers to be proficient. Somewhere I read the average handgun owner shoots their handgun less than 500 times, for others, that is one range session. Some choose the S&W EZ .380 which I think is great, people are carrying this soft-shooting easy to operate model who otherwise wouldn't be carrying any gun. I think you'd agree carrying any gun is better than having no gun.

Quote:
Their position is political - and so is the ascendancy of the 9MM through the FBI's oversized influence in LE (and the lemming public's) buying patterns. Nobody wants to be seen as "different" anymore - we want to be "liked" and "run with the crowd". My heartburn with the situation is that it is causing many unsuspecting individuals to buy and carry under 4" 9MM compact handguns and load them with ammo that gives them 1100 or less fps - again, a .38 Special performance level - and think they are better armed than they were with a .45, a Super .38 - or a 10MM. In a similar incident, the US.mil bought the Beretta 92 and dumped the M1911 as a many million dollar bribe to get Italy to adopt he F-16 Fighter and to also allow US Tactical nukes on her soil. We got what we wanted, politically - Italy got cash. Again, nothing to do with a soldier's needs - just politics as usual.
Agreed the 9mm FMJ is inadequate for military needs, although I suppose the increased capacity was good.

Quote:
The 9MM is not all of a sudden Magical. The laws of physics still apply - and to pretend differently may lead us to painfully and expensively (in blood) relearn what was already known, 100 years ago. CC
Just consider there could be a cost in blood for someone carrying a caliber too large for them.
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2020, 11:06 AM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Tractor having through your thread twice haven't seen that you made your decision.
I suggest a Colt lightweight commander 9mm. You specifically said you want a 9mm. I have seen them in our area for $999. Thats right at the top of your budget, but they are fine guns & carry like a dream.
Good luck, searching is half the fun.
Let us know.
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  #73  
Old 04-23-2020, 01:46 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_...lack+parkerize

Springfield Armory Range Officer Compact you get the commander 4 inch barrel on an officer grip.

Or a Dan Wesson Vigil
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  #74  
Old 04-23-2020, 02:01 PM
tractor tractor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Vaccaro View Post
Tractor having through your thread twice haven't seen that you made your decision.
I suggest a Colt lightweight commander 9mm. You specifically said you want a 9mm. I have seen them in our area for $999. Thats right at the top of your budget, but they are fine guns & carry like a dream.
Good luck, searching is half the fun.
Let us know.
Frank - Iíve been reading thru this thread daily, more often now that Iíve really nothing planned during the day. Thereís been Lots of great info and discussion. Never intended this to become a 9mm vs everything else, but itís been interesting and, in a way, educational. Just for info, I have eleven other 1911s (45ACP, 38SUPER and 357Sig, Govtm and Commander sized), so Iím familiar with the firearm. Iím narrowing my field of prospects to the SA EMP4 Contour Carry and the Colt Lightweight Commander both in 9mm. Price/value will be the deciding factor. This would give me an even dozen 1911s and one in 9mm to add to all my other 9s.
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  #75  
Old 04-23-2020, 02:01 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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Posts: 3,202
CSSI, I have regular police experience, not FBI, though I have worked directly with them and I have great respect for everyone who puts on a uniform and protects the public - military, LE and all the security forces that keep us safe. My opinions and views come from over forty years of regular study, as a firearms instructor and armorer, of weapons and ammunition topics on a regular basis - and also of the politics that sometimes unfortunately lead to less than optimum choices for the end user - who is given no choice, but has to use what is issued.

I do not see the .45ACP as hard to shoot, at all. I had a willowy 20 year old Mennonite girl bouncing Coke cans at 15 yards with my Government Model in 20 minutes in my youth - from never having touched a firearm before. The 10MM and .40 are indeed sharper in recoil to some, and there may be a few people who are better armed with a lighter caliber. I do not think that is a majority, though. If you carry a gun, you do need to practice - it's part of your responsibility, guys. And you can get pretty good in 500 rounds, if you apply the Basics and add some dry firing on a regular basis.

The 9MM has been a mediocre performer on people since it's inception, and without high velocity it still is. Mid bores (the old ".36 caliber") are just not that effective until they reach 1400 fps and can generate neuogenic shock, shutting down the nervous system - as the full charge .357/125 grain load does. The 9MM can't really do this consistently, the case is too small. Better bullets and expansion (up to what a .45 ACP starts with) helps the 9MM slightly, but does not do what either a .357 Magnum - or a .45ACP has been shown to do much more consistently. Lots of one shot stops with both of these calibers - to include against hopped up, homicidal opponents. The 9MM, not so much.

But my other beef with the FBI - mainly with their Firearms Technical people - is their refusal to look at the most effective handgun ammo fight stopping methodology, as clearly shown in the Strasborg (sp?) Study, shooting well instrumented, live Alpine goats. Allegedly funded by a US Agency (without named credit, as the animal rights people would go berserk) it tested almost every viable LE round possible. And the winning round? A 10MM Magsafe frangible round at over 1600 fps gave the absolute fastest incapacitation. The Magsafe and Glaser rounds - and the hyper velocity light bullet Liberty Ammo rounds (9mm, .40 and .45 at around 2000 fps) are what the average citizen should carry if he wants effective stopping performance. Watch the YouTube video testing the 9MM Liberty Ammo round at 2200 fps - it burns right through a Level III vest and makes an impressive cavity in ductseal the size of a large fist. But the FBI MUST HAVE their 12" of penetration, period. Which will end up going through bad guys and into an innocent behind him, if Murphy has his way - and he frequently does.

High capacity is often touted as a major virtue - and if you miss a lot, it may seem help. But not as much as focusing and getting hits in a disciplined, trained way. When I carried a six shot Model 19 Smith and 18 rounds, I never worried about running out of ammo - because I knew I could shoot. The increasing number of police videos where the cop fires 15 times at one opponent should give everyone pause - "I have lots of bullets so I will just keep pulling the trigger until he notices" is not a very good tactic. Very few civilians will ever get to the end of their first magazine - violent encounters tend to be up close and over suddenly - and, thankfully, just presenting a gun makes a lot of creeps turn away. As Jeff Cooper used to say "Put him on his back." Concentrate on what you trained to do - and train to be effective, not just put more bullets in the air.

My advice remains the same - if you just MUST have a .36 caliber handgun due to legit physical limitations or even just to feel you are "one with the herd" get a 1911 in Super .38 - and a 9MM barrel for practice. If that is all you think you can handle. But don't let political justifications by Government bureacrats fool you into thinking less = more. Bad math - and physics.
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 04-23-2020 at 02:14 PM.
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