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  #1  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:30 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Question about Blue and Black American Flag

I have seen them flying in my neck of the woods. I am assuming this is a "Thin Blue Line" related. I have always had a great deal of respect for LEO and find the Thin Blue Line symbol very tasteful and meaningful, but I don't know that I like this adaptation of the American Flag. Am I wrong to feel this way?
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:25 AM
US1911 US1911 is offline
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I personally won't fly any main flag except a traditional US Flag. I really dig some of the modified flags like the Thin Blue Line flag of which you speak, but I've always felt that the main flag should never be altertered and it's meaning should never be two-fold.

Having said that, we live in a time where our Country, our values, our Patriotism, our faith is under siege, as such, I'm compelled to accept alternative flags if they're tastefully done. Flying a less than traditional, but tasteful flag, is far better than flying no flag at all. Tis better to acknowledge our great nation than to ignore it.

Another exception that I have is for those who've lost their brothers & sisters. I always fly my primary main US flag with a smaller secondary Thin Blue Line flag for one week beginning on Peace Officers Memorial Day. Well, I fly it more often than that throughout the year, but it's always waving in the wind during Peace Officers Memorial Day, just like it is now.



My friend (retired LEO), whose lost a plethora of brothers, is flying his flags for a week too. Although different from my display, I can't help but to admire and respect his commitment to respectfully honor his fallen brothers. He loved my secondary Thin Blue Line Flag, so he added one to his flag locker.

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Old 05-19-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by US1911 View Post
I personally won't fly any main flag except a traditional US Flag. I really dig some of the modified flags like the Thin Blue Line flag of which you speak, but I've always felt that the main flag should never be altertered and it's meaning should never be two-fold.
I concur. I think flying the traditional flag along with the Thin Blue Line flag, like you are doing, covers all the bases. No need to fly the modified Blue Line flag.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:00 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Snorkel View Post
I concur. I think flying the traditional flag along with the Thin Blue Line flag, like you are doing, covers all the bases. No need to fly the modified Blue Line flag.
Agreed... very respectful. Good bless, the fallen law enforcement.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:32 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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The very concept of bastardizing and changing the US Flag to create a specific message or facilitate a particular group I find very offensive - the group or intent doesn't matter... altering the Flag to send a political message is wrong, regardless of who or why.

Its a collective, national symbol, not one to be twisted, used or manipulated for social or political purposes...
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:37 PM
AnOldBiker AnOldBiker is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The very concept of bastardizing and changing the US Flag to create a specific message or facilitate a particular group I find very offensive - the group or intent doesn't matter... altering the Flag to send a political message is wrong, regardless of who or why.

Its a collective, national symbol, not one to be twisted, used or manipulated for social or political purposes...



Very well said !
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:23 PM
Javelina Javelina is offline
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100% in agreement with wccountryboy. Can't say it any better!
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I have seen them flying in my neck of the woods. I am assuming this is a "Thin Blue Line" related. I have always had a great deal of respect for LEO and find the Thin Blue Line symbol very tasteful and meaningful, but I don't know that I like this adaptation of the American Flag. Am I wrong to feel this way?
Do not think you are wrong. Agree with Countryboy's sentiments.
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:31 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Do not think you are wrong. Agree with Countryboy's sentiments.
Yep, I was just surprised it took six days for someone to agree with me. I wondered if possibly the adapted flag was commissioned through an Official Government Protocal Agency (or local police department), which I seriously doubted. Something tells me that some misguided individual with power point designed the flag and has marketed it, then sold it to folks who have no idea how offensive this adapted flag is to many of us.
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2017, 07:55 AM
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Secondary Blue Line flag is nice. Do not like the altered U.S. flag at all, for the very reasons Wccountryboy stated.
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Old 05-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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As a veteran whose family has served in the last 4 wars I agree with your points. And I have reconsidered the display of my blue line flag. However as a police officer for the past 28 years, I see the other side too. This blue line flag came about when it seemed that the whole country turned against us. We were under attack daily in the news and on the streets. Depending on the area you worked in it can cause you to have a lot of doubts about what you spent a significant portion of your life doing. I can't speak for all cops but for me seeing the blue line flag flying on someone's house meant quite a bit. That I was not forgotten. My brothers who didn't make it home that night were not forgotten, and that the person in that house still believed that the police were not the enemy. A citizen who cared about my well-being as much as we cared about theirs.
As for me, I will continue to fly an American Flag in front of my house and on occasion, the blue line flag will also fly. Not as an insult but as a memorial to those who gave all here.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The very concept of bastardizing and changing the US Flag to create a specific message or facilitate a particular group I find very offensive - the group or intent doesn't matter... altering the Flag to send a political message is wrong, regardless of who or why.

Its a collective, national symbol, not one to be twisted, used or manipulated for social or political purposes...
AMEN! You beat me to it. I feel exactly the same way. There are plenty of ways to show respect and support without making these bastardized American flags. Our flag should be left unaltered.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:15 AM
M Yaworski M Yaworski is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The very concept of bastardizing and changing the US Flag to create a specific message or facilitate a particular group I find very offensive - the group or intent doesn't matter... altering the Flag to send a political message is wrong, regardless of who or why.
Not only is it offensive, it is a violation of the flag code. However, why should we expect government agencies to follow the law?

If they want to bastardize a flag, let them do it to their township or city flags.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:28 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Trog View Post
As a veteran whose family has served in the last 4 wars I agree with your points. And I have reconsidered the display of my blue line flag. However as a police officer for the past 28 years, I see the other side too. This blue line flag came about when it seemed that the whole country turned against us. We were under attack daily in the news and on the streets. Depending on the area you worked in it can cause you to have a lot of doubts about what you spent a significant portion of your life doing. I can't speak for all cops but for me seeing the blue line flag flying on someone's house meant quite a bit. That I was not forgotten. My brothers who didn't make it home that night were not forgotten, and that the person in that house still believed that the police were not the enemy. A citizen who cared about my well-being as much as we cared about theirs.
As for me, I will continue to fly an American Flag in front of my house and on occasion, the blue line flag will also fly. Not as an insult but as a memorial to those who gave all here.
I've no issue with the Blue Line flag itself (the black flag with the ceneral horizontal blue strip) - its a completely independent symbol of LE, and an appropriate memorial. Its been around for decades.

When the colors are changed, and the imagery superimposed on the US Flag, (the 'Blue Line US Flag) that is wrong, regardless of the reason or "cause "... why not a pink and white US Flag with a ribbon for breast cancer? Maybe a rainbow US flag for LGBT issues....? Maybe Bloomberg et al can superimpose an image of a child's bloody corpse to support gun control...? It is corrupting the symbol for ones personal political cause... the message becomes (regardless of what you may think it is, or intend it to be) that if one does not absolutely, completely, and totally support the "cause" being promoted, one is "un American". Thats the psychology of such symbology and imagery.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:49 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Not only is it offensive, it is a violation of the flag code. However, why should we expect government agencies to follow the law?

If they want to bastardize a flag, let them do it to their township or city flags.
While very true, the Flag Code has been found to be legally unenforceable... so its on the end user to either comply out of respect or not...

Personally, I'm not sure State and local government entities should be using the US Flag on vehicles, equipment, and uniforms- they are NOT Federal employees or authorities, they are State or local authorities... they are certified and commissioned by the State government... they are subject to State law.... perhaps State Flags would be more appropriate?
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:59 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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As a veteran whose family has served in the last 4 wars I agree with your points. And I have reconsidered the display of my blue line flag. However as a police officer for the past 28 years, I see the other side too. This blue line flag came about when it seemed that the whole country turned against us. We were under attack daily in the news and on the streets. Depending on the area you worked in it can cause you to have a lot of doubts about what you spent a significant portion of your life doing. I can't speak for all cops but for me seeing the blue line flag flying on someone's house meant quite a bit. That I was not forgotten. My brothers who didn't make it home that night were not forgotten, and that the person in that house still believed that the police were not the enemy. A citizen who cared about my well-being as much as we cared about theirs.
As for me, I will continue to fly an American Flag in front of my house and on occasion, the blue line flag will also fly. Not as an insult but as a memorial to those who gave all here.
I am not in your shoes, but I can promise you that at no time has the entire country "turned against you" (LEO). BLM and the media do not speak for the majority of Americans. As a matter of fact, they (BLM types and media), speak for a very small number of Americans. True, they manipulate media with autobots and other techniques to make support for their narrative larger than life.

I hope your spirits will be lifted, because everyone I know respects and admires those in Law Enforcement. Your brothers who do not make it home are not forgotten they are heroes to the majority of Americans. God bless them all.

I hope that you will take the time to research the Protocal associated with the American Flag. The fact, and I believe you; that you say, it is not meant to insult anyone, needs to be re-thought. You need to understand. It does insult many. It is not right. By flying the altered American flag you will alienate some of the Americans who love you the most. Flying that flag may put you in a category more closely associated with those who you (and I) despise most.

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Last edited by HarryO45; 05-24-2017 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:25 AM
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Harry thank you for your response. It was well put and understood. If my flying the blue line offends I apologize. It was not the intent.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:53 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by US1911 View Post
I personally won't fly any main flag except a traditional US Flag. I really dig some of the modified flags like the Thin Blue Line flag of which you speak, but I've always felt that the main flag should never be altertered and it's meaning should never be two-fold.

This I agree with 100%...

Having said that, we live in a time where our Country, our values, our Patriotism, our faith is under siege, as such, I'm compelled to accept alternative flags if they're tastefully done. Flying a less than traditional, but tasteful flag, is far better than flying no flag at all. Tis better to acknowledge our great nation than to ignore it.

I can't agree with this... the imagery, symbolism, and message of ANY "alternative" flag, for any cause, purpose, or reason, is by its very nature exclusive and devicive... I find it odd that you talk about values, yet so readily yield and forfit your own (based on your first statment) because you agree with the message or group violating your values....

Another exception that I have is for those who've lost their brothers & sisters. I always fly my primary main US flag with a smaller secondary Thin Blue Line flag for one week beginning on Peace Officers Memorial Day. Well, I fly it more often than that throughout the year, but it's always waving in the wind during Peace Officers Memorial Day, just like it is now.



My friend (retired LEO), whose lost a plethora of brothers, is flying his flags for a week too. Although different from my display, I can't help but to admire and respect his commitment to respectfully honor his fallen brothers. He loved my secondary Thin Blue Line Flag, so he added one to his flag locker.

Sounds like you're somewhat conflicted... what you seem to be saying is " Its wrong BUT....".
There is no "but"; its either right and proper or wrong and improper...

The display in your first image is correct, respectful, proper, and tasteful. There is nothing wrong with it. Its a secondary flag, a complete stand alone image and symbol, flown in a position subordinate to the US Flag....

There is NOTHING respectful or tastful about the second image. Its a corruption of a national symbol for political purpose, to make a statement. From a symbology perspective, its no differnent than burning a proper US Flag at a political demonstration...
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The very concept of bastardizing and changing the US Flag to create a specific message or facilitate a particular group I find very offensive - the group or intent doesn't matter... altering the Flag to send a political message is wrong, regardless of who or why.

Its a collective, national symbol, not one to be twisted, used or manipulated for social or political purposes...
.....
Amen brother
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:30 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Harry thank you for your response. It was well put and understood. If my flying the blue line offends I apologize. It was not the intent.
Your welcome. We are on your team. Be safe. I will do my best to always watch your back.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:47 PM
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I've been a cop for 20 years and my son is in the Army. We fly them like the top picture US1911 posted. Never liked the thin blue line mixed with the US Flag.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
From a symbology perspective, its no differnent than burning a proper US Flag at a political demonstration...
I agree with everything you've said up until this comment. I believe the blue line American flag is disrespectful and in poor taste, for all the reasons you explained. But I disagree that it is at the same level of burning a US flag. People who burn a US flag do so with the intent to disrespect our Country and it's ideals. People who misguidedly fly the blue line flag love our country and LE, and fly it to show support for both causes. Although it is still disrespectful, it is not intentionally disrespectful. Instead of condemning them, we should educate them.

A similar example is that it is disrespectful to clap or cheer at the end of the National Anthem, but the millions of Americans who do so are not intending to be disrespectful, in fact their intent is the opposite. People should be careful about casting the first stone; I imagine there are people in this very thread who are quick to judge the blue line flag raisers, but who themselves, clap or cheer after the National Anthem. The National Anthem is not entertainment, and so even if the intent is to praise the skill of the person singing/ performing it, it is still disrespectful. It is a solemn occasion when the anthem is performed, and should be treated as such. The National Anthem Committee of 1942 placed numerous restrictions on the performance of the anthem, precisely to keep it solemn.
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:12 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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I agree with everything you've said up until this comment. I believe the blue line American flag is disrespectful and in poor taste, for all the reasons you explained. But I disagree that it is at the same level of burning a US flag. People who burn a US flag do so with the intent to disrespect our Country and it's ideals. People who misguidedly fly the blue line flag love our country and LE, and fly it to show support for both causes. Although it is still disrespectful, it is not intentionally disrespectful.
The base, core "intent" of both actions is to "make a statment", hence my comparison. One statment may be more aggressive than the other, but the intent is the same- a statment...
Assuming that the "intent" of flag burning is disrespectful, or that the "intent" of the blue line US Flag is "respectful" is juat that- an assumtion, and most likely a bias based on what you find more offensive.

I have a hard time marginalizing the blue line US flag as "misguided"- it suggests or implies that those that do so are too stupid to know its wrong. So much the worse when its on agency owned vehicles, a common sight around here... if those doing so are NOT stupid, then the act is intentional, and every bit as wrong and disrespectful as burning as a statment...

I respect the difficult and under appreciated job that many LEOs do daily. They have every right to be proud of that profession, and to remember those they've lost... however, that doesn't excuse or justify defacing a national symbol to do so, or to "support a cause", nor is it something that should be nationalised...
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:41 PM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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... and most likely a bias based on what you find more offensive.

...
Really? I'm sorry, that's just a weak argument. Let's use the reasonable man standard. Ask 5 random people whether the intent is to be disrespectful when burning an American flag...or whether the intent is to be disrespectful of the Country when flying a blue line flag. My guess is that all 5 will agree with me.


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it suggests or implies that those that do so are too stupid to know its wrong
"Stupid" is a pretty harsh term, I'd choose "ignorant", but that's splitting hairs. I am both suggesting and implying it's true. I think Americans are stupid/ ignorant about a great many things, and government agencies doubly so (you and I have both worked for a government body, would you disagree with me?). I believe etiquette (of any sort) is not taught to anywhere near the extent it was in prior generations. I would challenge you to find a single person who is flying a blue line American flag who will admit they are intending to be disrespectful to their country. I think misguided is a very appropriate term for their actions. "Uninformed" might be even better.

Quote:
I respect the difficult and under appreciated job that many LEOs do daily. They have every right to be proud of that profession, and to remember those they've lost... however, that doesn't excuse or justify defacing a national symbol to do so, or to "support a cause", nor is it something that should be nationalised...
...Unnecessary rebuttal since I already said I agree with you...
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Old 05-24-2017, 02:18 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Really? I'm sorry, that's just a weak argument. Let's use the reasonable man standard. Ask 5 random people whether the intent is to be disrespectful when burning an American flag...or whether the intent is to be disrespectful of the Country when flying a blue line flag. My guess is that all 5 will agree with me.

If you load the question with the term "disrespect" or a variation thereof, to facilitate a desired result, I agree with you... phrase the question as " what ia the intent of..." and add a "cause" to the former, and the gap closes. The primary difference is that one cause is very self evident, the other more flexable. The bias is that you share a common belief or position with those that fly blue line US flags, and probably don't with the cause of a flag burner...


"Stupid" is a pretty harsh term, I'd choose "ignorant", but that's splitting hairs. I am both suggesting and implying it's true. I think Americans are stupid/ ignorant about a great many things, and government agencies doubly so (you and I have both worked for a government body, would you disagree with me?). I believe etiquette (of any sort) is not taught to anywhere near the extent it was in prior generations. I would challenge you to find a single person who is flying a blue line American flag who will admit they are intending to be disrespectful to their country. I think misguided is a very appropriate term for their actions. "Uninformed" might be even better.
I also doubt you'll find many flag burners that will admit to being "internationally" disrespectful... they have a cause, ans a statment, band they're trying to further that cause....

You're correct, "stupid" is pretty harsh term, and ignorant may be more appropriate... yet when I see such imagery on probably 25% of LE agency owned vehicles, I don't buy the "ignorance" defense. People know better, but because its socially acceptable and serves their purposes, they do it anyhow. Kind of like US1911 said- "I don't agree with BUT..." they'll easily make exceptions, knowing full well better... at best, its willful ignorance.

Even though ignorant in many things, in my world of government, even the most juniors are taught HOW to find the correct protocal; they may not have the answer committed to memory, BUT they can find it in short order.

Ignorance I can understand. Mainaining and acting out of that ignorance I can't... not asking the question because one may not like the answer isn't ignorant, its intentional. There's also enough in LE who DO know better, yet neither correct their peers or worse, indulge themselves.... when an agency (or individual) is informed of their error, and does nothing to correct it, its not ignorance - its willful and intentional.

The line between ignorance and knowladge in this area isn't very broad. The concepts are simple and easy to learn...

To clarify, I have NO issue with the "blue line" flag, the black banner with the single horizontal blue line. Its a completely independent and stand alone image. What I take issue with is the blackened US Flag with the horizontal blue line. This is an intentional corruption of a symbol to facilitate or support a cause, to make a statment.

The simple solution: remove national symbols from local government entities, uniforms, and vehicles entierly. State or local government is just that- State or local. Quit trying to "nationalize" them through symbology...

Finally, for what its worth, I appreciate and respect your opinions and positions, even if we disagree... Based on interactions here, I believe you're very dedicated to your profession, and treat it as such... likewise, you don't allow your profession to define your identity or self worth...
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