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  #1  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:40 PM
Pappy1949 Pappy1949 is offline
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Required "Qualification"

Whether or not it should be required is discussed extensively in other threads throughout the forum. I'm just curious about the requirements in different states where they do exist and your opinions of those requirements.

For those in states that have a license to carry AND require range time as part of the course, what are the specifics of the range requirements. Do you feel they come close to showing evidence of proficiency with a hand gun?

Texas requires 50 rounds (20 at 3 yards / 20 at 7 yards / 10 at 15 yards) on a B-27 target using the 5-4-3 scoring method. 5 points for inside the 8 ring, 4 points for the 7 ring and 3 points anywhere else on the silhouette. A score of 70% (175 of a possible 250) is needed to get your license.

I think the 3 yard fire should be eliminated for 2 reasons. First this distance only shows that the shooter knows which way to point the muzzle and pull the trigger. Second, unless you are already at a raised pistol stance and ready to fire, you are not likely to get off a shot at this distance before your assailant can close the gap. This, imo, gives a new shooter false confidence that they could use a gun to defend themselves in any situation.

At least 3, and possibly 4, of the 20 people I went through the training with would not have qualified without the 3 yard line fire.

Over all, I think the requirements might demonstrate the shooter's ability to safely handle a gun and not in any way an indication of any level of proficiency.

Last edited by Pappy1949; 05-16-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:56 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Such "qualifications" and "training" were a bone thrown to the anti gunners to get shall issue CC passed....

Its been a while, but if I recollect, NC requires 30 round, 20 of which must hit a standard E type silhouette. No time requierments, and I think 7-10y max distance...

Waste of time and unnecessary regulatory burden...
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  #3  
Old 05-16-2017, 02:01 PM
moralem moralem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Such "qualifications" and "training" were a bone thrown to the anti gunners to get shall issue CC passed....

Its been a while, but if I recollect, NC requires 30 round, 20 of which must hit a standard E type silhouette. No time requierments, and I think 7-10y max distance...

Waste of time and unnecessary regulatory burden...
Indeed when some of us carry inaccurate firearms do to budget constraints......
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  #4  
Old 05-16-2017, 02:27 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by moralem View Post
Indeed when some of us carry inaccurate firearms do to budget constraints......
What...? One doesn't need an "accurate" or match grade gun to pass this qual; to the contrary, a drunk chimp can do it with a straw and spitballs... My wife qualified with a heavily used and abused '63 M37 J frame...
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  #5  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:05 PM
Beak Boater Beak Boater is offline
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In Fla, you have to demonstrate proficiency. When I took the class, everyone had a choice of a revolver in .38 or a compact Semi Auto in 9mm. Your choice. Our instructor made you load the gun, unload then fire 3 rounds into a target that was 5 yards away. Their were 18 people in the class, they all shot at one target, buy the time I shot it was hard to tell where your rounds hit. No score, no points, just the trainers say so, and his signature on the certificate.
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  #6  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:28 PM
Scottytuned Scottytuned is online now
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This is the Nebraska test:

Qualification Course of Fire (Total 30 rounds) – FBI “Q” Target (22" x 34")
*No time limit*

3 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

9 feet - Twelve (12) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. Three repetitions must be from a
concealed draw.

15 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

21 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

Proficiency is 70% on the target. Call me an anti-gunner for it, but I think it should be a higher standard. The 1 yard and 3 yard are pretty much guaranteed if you're aiming in the remote direction of the target. That means at 5 yards and 7 yards, between the remaining 12 shots, you only need to hit the target 3 times. None of this being "scored", it just being you hit the body on the target.

I'll just say I was with people in this class that if they were firing in self defense, I wouldn't want to be in the same county, but they still passed with no problem. I believe you should be proficient with a firearm if you're carrying, and tests like ones above don't demonstrate that.
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:32 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Here in SoCal my range qual was easy.

However, one student failed & was asked to return on another day after more familiarizing & practice with the gun. Because of poor muzzle control, fumbling, rounds off target.

An obvious hazard to others.

It's clearly not an Accuracy Test as much as it was a Basic Firearm Competency test.

I disagree very much with the idea of eliminating the 3 yard test. A threat "closing the gap" is but one scenario out of many.

Attacks are often Fists-On from the get go. 3 yards is FAR. Students need to be comfortable with shooting at arm's length---- a more likely fighting distance than 15 yards.
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  #8  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:18 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottytuned View Post
This is the Nebraska test:

Qualification Course of Fire (Total 30 rounds) FBI Q Target (22" x 34")
*No time limit*

3 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

9 feet - Twelve (12) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. Three repetitions must be from a
concealed draw.

15 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

21 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

Proficiency is 70% on the target. Call me an anti-gunner for it, but I think it should be a higher standard. The 1 yard and 3 yard are pretty much guaranteed if you're aiming in the remote direction of the target. That means at 5 yards and 7 yards, between the remaining 12 shots, you only need to hit the target 3 times. None of this being "scored", it just being you hit the body on the target.

I'll just say I was with people in this class that if they were firing in self defense, I wouldn't want to be in the same county, but they still passed with no problem. I believe you should be proficient with a firearm if you're carrying, and tests like ones above don't demonstrate that.


You want a "high" standard to execute a Constitutionally enumerated right....? Sure, sounds great. How about requiring "training " and a license to use the internet to exercise 1A rights? Unlicensed possession nof a computer or smart phoneshould of course be a felony.... any "offensive" posts on a forum or social media = Federal felony and 10 years in prison....

Why don't I set the standard...? I'm more than capable; I'm an SOF qualified instructor and certified training developer. Itll cost $500 for a class, and 300 rounds, AND I'll guarantee a 90% failure rate...

Egos aside, shooting isn't a pistol isn't a complex, difficult physical skill. The concept of licencing or permitting a "right" is obscene...
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:21 PM
AlbertaRob AlbertaRob is offline
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I don't carry. I'd prefer that you not try to protect me, yourself, or anyone else unless you are proficient. Don't need innocents getting hurt.

I'm not saying don't carry. I'm saying get proficient - then carry. Not because any law or permit requires it. Just because it's right.
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  #10  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:21 PM
Riverpigusmc Riverpigusmc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beak Boater View Post
In Fla, you have to demonstrate proficiency. When I took the class, everyone had a choice of a revolver in .38 or a compact Semi Auto in 9mm. Your choice. Our instructor made you load the gun, unload then fire 3 rounds into a target that was 5 yards away. Their were 18 people in the class, they all shot at one target, buy the time I shot it was hard to tell where your rounds hit. No score, no points, just the trainers say so, and his signature on the certificate.
Ummm...not really. All I had to do was show a DD 214...no live fire or requal required. You should not have to show proficiency for a Constitutional right...that's absurd
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:23 PM
Riverpigusmc Riverpigusmc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaRob View Post
I don't carry. I'd prefer that you not try to protect me, yourself, or anyone else unless you are proficient. Don't need innocents getting hurt.

I'm not saying don't carry. I'm saying get proficient - then carry. Not because any law or permit requires it. Just because it's right.
Nonsense. We are citizens, you think like a subject.With your outlook, I prefer you stay in Canada
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Last edited by Riverpigusmc; 05-16-2017 at 04:25 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:42 PM
AlbertaRob AlbertaRob is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverpigusmc View Post
Nonsense. We are citizens, you think like a subject.With your outlook, I prefer you stay in Canada
Nice to meet you citizen. From your forum name, I presume you are competent. No need to get hostile. I'm just asking incompetents to keep their toys in their pocket - till they get competent. Doesn't that sound like a good idea?

Train and practice cause it's right - not because someone demands it.
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:45 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by AlbertaRob View Post
I don't carry. I'd prefer that you not try to protect me, yourself, or anyone else unless you are proficient. Don't need innocents getting hurt.

I'm not saying don't carry. I'm saying get proficient - then carry. Not because any law or permit requires it. Just because it's right.
You don't carry because its generally NOT an option in the Great North...

While agree that anyone who chooses to carry in a place where they have a protected RIGHT to do so should be proficient and competent, its an individual, personal responsibility, NOT the business of the State.

Once you start mandating "standards", its very easy to make that standard impossible to meet, and a right rapidly becomes a privilege... In 2 hours, I could design a POI and CoF that would be very expensive, and fail 90% of those who attempted it...

As was pointed out, yours seems to be the position of a subject of the State or Crown, rather than that of a citizen of a nation.
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:21 PM
AlbertaRob AlbertaRob is offline
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What's this "subject" thing? We're all subject to the laws of our land. You got a driver's license? Plates on your truck? Quit dissin' me. I never said anything about the state. I'm appealing to your conscience.

Hey, back on topic (more or less) I'm curious if police in the US have to pass and maintain sidearm competency standards? Up here, 31 rounds - 3meters, 5, 7,10 and 15 - one dummy round - all timed. Standard is all hits on the silhouette - no flyers.
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:34 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by AlbertaRob View Post
What's this "subject" thing? We're all subject to the laws of our land. You got a driver's license? Plates on your truck? Quit dissin' me. I never said anything about the state. I'm appealing to your conscience.
Nobody is "dissin' you... its simply a concept you're not familiar with. Nobody has a "right" to drive, anywhere. In the US, we have a Constitutionally enumerated, but often ignored, RIGHT to keep (defined as to own or possess) and bear (to CARRY, on or about ones person) arms.

A "subject " is at the will and whim of government. A "citizen" is protected, by social compact and fundemental rule of law, FROM government.

With regards to. Gun ownership and use, you have NO protection from government; you're a subject... in the US, we have Constitutional protections in this area...
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. ~Samuel Adams~
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:56 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Did you guys actually read & understand what AlbertaRob said?

He specifically did NOT promote shooting standards be implemented for carry.

He said it should be one's choice (not law) & that he preferred that you make the choice to be proficient.

I think an apology is in order.
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Old 05-16-2017, 06:21 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Did you guys actually read & understand what AlbertaRob said?

He specifically did NOT promote shooting standards be implemented for carry.

He said it should be one's choice (not law) & that he preferred that you make the choice to be proficient.

I think an apology is in order.
The question is who decides what "proficient" is... its either a personal choice, decision, and standard, or its a State mandated requierment. There's really no middle ground.

Its a matter of differnent perspectives. When one is born and raised in a controlled environment, one is much more receptive and susceptible to authority. When one is accustomed to a very free, independent, environment, one is less tolerant of intrusion on personal liberty.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. ~Samuel Adams~
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Old 05-16-2017, 06:22 PM
al45 al45 is offline
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I've been a CCW instructor for over 10 years in ND.

There are 2 CCW options here. Levels 1 & 2.

Level 1: age 21 & older. Shooting is required at 7 yards and 15 yards on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. Shooter must show proficiency right handed, left handed, standing and kneeling. Shooter must draw from concealment shoot/reload/ and shoot again. This process is timed. Class room instruction is mandatory. Written test must be passed with a 100% on the law portion and 70% on the remainder. Permit holder must re-qualify every 5 years. Currently have reciprocity with 39 states.

Level 2: Same written test, with the same passing requirements on the written portion, but permit holder does not have to retest every 5 years. Just need to send in current photo's and payment. No shooting requirements & available to age 18 & older. Reciprocity with 24 states.

Over the years I've seen some really good shooters (every one of those shot Bullseye). And some really bad shooters. As the written test is the same, those who aren't able to pass the shooting portion can always submit their application as a level 2. I urge students to try for the level 1 & if it doesn't work out, the level 2 is always there.

I expect the numbers of level 2 applicants to drop considerably after Aug 1. That's when constitutional carry becomes law in ND. Unfortunately it only applies to ND residents and only within the borders of the state, so if traveling out of state one would still need the permit.

Both my wife & I got our first ones in 1981. At that time it was a 10 question written and 10 rds (with a reload) at 15ft on a b-27 silhouette. Way too easy.

Al
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Last edited by al45; 05-16-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:41 PM
MG1912 MG1912 is offline
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In Virginia, you just need to show proof of taking a "class"... and the hunter's introduction class given by the DGIF counts...
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:04 PM
AlbertaRob AlbertaRob is offline
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Thanks for clarifying that WC. The first time the term was used beside "Stay in Canada" so yeah - I took it as disrespectful intent. I see now that you were not name calling, but referring to an area where I am subject to the restrictions of law that you are not. (Well, not supposed to be anyway).

FWIW, we do have a charter of rights and freedoms in Canada and we consider ourselves very much free citizens of our nation, It does not include the RKBA largely because the majority of Canadians don't want that. Hard to imagine I know, but that's democracy. We defend the rights we chose as vigorously as you defend yours - and ours seem to always be under attack as well.

Magazineman was correct in his interpretation. I don't care if you are even licensed or not. Just please don't start shootin' up the mall unless you can keep damage confined to the bad guy. You know that better than any 'certified' tester. 'least I hope you do.......

Rob!
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:41 PM
buckhorn_cortez buckhorn_cortez is offline
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The State of New Mexico requires an initial 15 hour concealed carry course. The State's course requirements include:

Quote:
The firearms training course shall be not less than fifteen hours in length and shall provide instruction regarding:

(1) knowledge of and safe handling of single- and double-action revolvers and semiautomatic handguns;
(2) safe storage of handguns and child safety;
(3) safe handgun shooting fundamentals;
(4) live shooting of a handgun on a firing range;
(5) identification of ways to develop and maintain handgun shooting skills;
(6) federal, state and local criminal and civil laws pertaining to the purchase, ownership, transportation, use and possession of handguns;
(7) techniques for avoiding a criminal attack and how to control a violent confrontation; and
(8) techniques for nonviolent dispute resolution.
The State then requires a shooting test that consists of:

Quote:
B. Competency demonstration.
(1) An applicant or licensee shall demonstrate competency in the safe use of each category and highest caliber of handgun for which he or she seeks certification by firing the handgun with live ammunition at a target no larger than 12 inches wide and 18 inches high.
(2) An applicant or licensee shall fire 15 rounds from three yards and 10 rounds from seven yards.
(3) An applicant or licensee shall score 4 points for each shot that hits within the scoring line and zero points for each shot that hits outside the scoring line. An applicant must obtain a score of 72% to pass the competency demonstration.
Beyond that it is up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the person is competent to have a concealed carry license:

Quote:
C. Determination of competency. An approved instructor shall determine whether or not to issue a certificate of completion based on the applicant or licensee's score on the competency demonstration and the applicant or licensees knowledge and understanding of the subjects specified in Subsection A of NMSA 1978 Section 29-19-7.
In order to keep your concealed carry license, you are required to requalify with a shooting test after 2 years. Four years after receiving your concealed carry permit you are required to take a 4 hour refresher course and the shooting test.

The two year and four year requirements continue as long as you have the concealed carry permit. So you are required to prove you are competent with shooting a gun as long as you have a permit.

You are also required to qualify with the type of gun you want to carry - revolver or semi-auto. If you want to be able to carry either type of gun, you have to shoot both types of guns for "determination of competency."

My wife and I take a S&W 625 .45 ACP revolver, and a .45 ACP 1911 to the shooting tests and qualify with both guns. That gives us the ability to carry either a revolver or semi-auto in any caliber up to .45.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:48 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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An interesting note: In Ca we are allowed up to 3 guns to be listed, by serial number, on our license to carry. You must qual with each one.

I have a J Frame & a Sig on mine.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:01 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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This is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MG1912 View Post
In Virginia, you just need to show proof of taking a "class"... and the hunter's introduction class given by the DGIF counts...
And I am quite happy with this the way that it is. We are currently pushing for unrestricted carry here for non felons. A lot depends on what happens in this years Governors race.

We are fortunate enough here in the commonwealth to permit sitting Governors one term only. I am just hoping that we can shoot that demoturd Tim Kaine down in November.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:15 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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One problem with range qualification requirements is that some folks will show up with the only CCW gun they own... a tiny .25 or .32 automatic. Good luck shooting a passing score on a B-27 target with one of those. A range qualification test should only prove one thing: that the person is familiar with safely operating and firing their chosen defense weapon. The applicant could be an expert marksman on the test yet in the stress of a deadly force encounter still end up missing with every shot.

BTW here in WA there are no qualifications. As long as you have a clean record, just go to your local police precinct, fill out the application, get fingerprinted, pay the fees and wait a few weeks. Done. You could have absolutely no clue how to even load your firearm for all they know.
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Last edited by dsk; 05-16-2017 at 11:18 PM.
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  #25  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:41 AM
Pappy1949 Pappy1949 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckhorn_cortez View Post
The State of New Mexico requires an initial 15 hour concealed carry course.

Beyond that it is up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the person is competent to have a concealed carry license:
Am I reading this right? After you take the 15 hour course and pass the "Competency demonstration" the instructor can decide you are not competent and deny you a license. Based on what?
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