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  #1  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:14 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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Les Baer Monolith HW and Ed Brown Classic Custom

I've shot 1911's for many years, for bullseye and hardball, set up my bullseye and hardball guns myself, doing the trigger work, beavertails, porting, safeties and installing briley spherical bushings and barrels and they've always shot very very well. I also had a S&W 945 that was an excellent pistol, if not a true 1911. In any case I moved away from bullseye and ppc shooting to run vintage military matches where we use as issued weapons.

Fast forward I had a few pistols that I wasn't really happy with, and decided to trade them for something that I could use to start shooting our local ppc matches again. I considered a range officer as a good starting point, potentially I'd need to do trigger work and/or install a new barrel. Went to the store and they had a pretty good assortment, range officers, sti's, kimber and springfield match pistols, S&W peformance center, and a les baer Monolith .45. Our matches are limited to 5" barrels and I wanted black on black adjustable sights.

It's amazing how they all had basically the same setup and features but some felt really awkward in my hand due to the height of the thumb safety, grip safety and trigger length. I shoot with a thumb over safety grip. The monolith HW just fit my hand perfectly. It was fit tight as usual, but cocking the hammer and pulling the slide back was no problem. I took it out to the range and put the break in rounds through it in one shot, and then spent the rest of the week putting about 2000 rounds of reloads through it. I was surprised that my load of 3.5 grains of bullseye with a 200 lswc cycled fine with the 18# variable spring. I've had no issues other than a stuck forward firing pin at around 1400 rounds, that Les and I debugged to most likely a burr in the 9mm firing pin. This only happened when dry firing the pistol before holstering. I dressed the ledge on the pin with scotchbrite as per his suggestion and have not had an issue since. Accuracy off the bench with no rest, just butt on the table has been quite good with my loads with 1.1" best 25 yard 5 shot group with no settling shot, and 2.7" at 50 yards shot the same way. It's very soft shooting with that load.

Fast forward to this weekend and I had just sold a few of my spare vintage pistols/rifles and lo and behold there was a like new in case Ed Brown Custom Classic blue 5" .45 with 4 magazines at around $250 more than the discounted price I paid for the new monolith. It had the mag well funnel and extended mag release and ambi safety with large shelf on both sides. As rediculous as it sounds I decided to get it as well and compare them.

The Brown has a mag well funnel that is checkered and I prefer that feel and length to the grooved mainspring housing that is stock on the monolith. Both have similar medium length triggers that place my finger in the perfect spot.

It also shoots extremely well also and have 1500 round through it this week with no failures. it runs a stock 16# spring and also cycles my same light bullseye load. I got a quick 1.5" 5 shot group at 25 yards, but I need to do a serious group session and also try it at 50 yards.

I also want to try some zero/nosler 185 jhp's with 4.1-4.2 grains VV N320 as the gold standard and see how they do with that load at 50 yards.

As good as the Baer felt, the brown feels very slightly better, I think due to the slightly shorter front to back length, and the slightly higher ed brown beavertail, along with the large ledge on both sides of the safety allows me to shoot with a thumb oversafety both right and left handed.

They have very nice front strap fine checkering, 30 and 25 lpi and they feel like your hand is velcrod to the pistol but do not leave any abbrasion even after many rounds.

The brown is very well fit, safety was very easy to engage and disengage, after many rounds I don't as many wear spots through the bluing as on the baer on the frame rails, bottom of slide, breechface but there is some, there is still some hood markings and some small marks on the slidestop pin where the lugs make lockup contact.

The Baer is also very well fit, the safety was very stiff, nearly impossible to engage left handed, right handed was fine, but disengaging was not a problem with either hand, but due to the small shelf on the right side safety, I can't shoot with my thumb over the ledge left handed. I do see numerous wear areas on the frame/slide/underside of the slide where it contacts the disconnector, and on the breachface/hood contact area. The slide stop pin was obviously fit/turned and was bright so I can't see wear marks. They used a link pin with an oversized hole, I've never seen that before, but I assume this is to prevent locking up on the link.

I did a slight modification to center spring finger that basically sets the disconnector and take up tension and make sure the disconnector still pops up reliably and the trigger still pushes forward off of the grip safety shelf. I did not mess with the hammer spring, or the sear spring finger as I wanted those to be conservative.

The Baer is right at 3.25# and theBrown is right at 3#, they were 4# and 3.75# out of the box. very slight creep on both of them that appears to be going away over time.

Both of the barrels have some machining marks visible at the start of the lands and leade when viewed with 2x magnifying glasses. I was surprised comparing to my briley barrels as they were pretty much mirror perfect, but I guess as long as they are shooting well and not leading I don't need to worry. After 400 rounds I get just a bit of lead at the leade that cleans up pretty easily.

The shiny bluing on the brown is nice but I'd actually prefer matte I think, the baer is already showing some blue removal in a few small places where my kydex holster makes contact. But I bought them as equipment, not for collectibility. The horizontal lines on the rear of the slide on the brown is very nice for reducing glare.

Both are very difficult to re-fit the firing pin retainers. Since they are milled with a flat top due to the low mounted sights, it's very hard to start them in their respective slots and there is almost no tolerance for mis alignment of the slide slot or the extractor. I finally cut the sharp corners at the top with a fine needle file to help get them started and there isn't any impact in tightness or alignment once fully in place.

The Baer shows signs of fitting on the extractor front pad, but it comes out very easily. there has not been any sign of an issue. The Brown has some tension as the extractor is removed.

The Brown extended mag release is nice and I don't need to change the grip in my hand as much to hit the button.

I like the polymer follower Les Baer 8 round magazines, except trying to load 8 rounds into a pistol with the slide forward requires motivation. The Baer has index holes in the magazine but no numbers, so I added those with my electric engraver just so that in a match I don't mis count. I bought two mec-gar 8 round mags with removable base plates and they fit perfectly and are easy to load as well and are much easier to insert fully loaded into a pistol with the slide forward. Interestingly wilson 8 round magazines would not seat, the plastic bottom at the front hits the frame before locking in place. The baer and mec-gar magazines fit in the brown pistol as well.

The brown magazines have a dimple on the metal followers that makes it harder to load the first round and they have stiffer springs. The 7 round Brown magazine that came oem with the pistol had a normal mccormick style small base pad on the bottom and it fits into both pistols. The 3 Brown 8 round magazines with removable bottoms that the previous owner had bought wouldn't fit into the baer pistol due to interference with the plastic bottom at the front. I fixed this by removing about 1/8" of the front lip of the plastic base pad and now the mags will fit both pistols.

Interestingly the Brown shoots softer with this load. They are sprung differently, 16# normal in the brown versus 18.5# variable in the baer, and these are light loads, but the baer flips more with them. I thought the heavier spring and pistol would make the baer softer, but apparently the "variable" is actually allowing more slide momentum. I also have an original Ithaca with stock spring that is even lighter recoiling, I think it has a straight 18 pound spring. So the spring is making a big difference. I may try the 16# in the baer for fun.

In summary both appear to be excellent pistols, very similar in form and function. The brown seems slightly more refined in finish/fit and wear patterns, we'll see how they age. I'm very slightly faster with the brown I think just due to the very slightly different ergonomics but I'm really torn on which to bring to the range each time, it's a nice problem to have.

anyway, hope you found that interesting.

Frank
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Last edited by burkefj; 04-27-2017 at 05:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:33 PM
Smac Smac is offline
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Don't have a Baer but I do love my Custom Classic. Good read thank you.
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  #3  
Old 04-26-2017, 07:33 PM
Apollo1218 Apollo1218 is online now
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Great read. thanks


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  #4  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:15 AM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
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Great info and good observations.
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:40 AM
US1911 US1911 is offline
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Nice report Frank! Superb pair of pistols too. I have an EB, but a LB Mono remains on my wish list.
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:25 AM
gun_fan111 gun_fan111 is online now
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Great pair of 1911s!
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2017, 04:55 PM
29aholic 29aholic is offline
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Where's the targets?
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2017, 05:35 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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Here are my best groups, from the bench, no rest, just butt on the table, with 3.5 grains of bullseye and .469 taper crimp and 1.255 loa in winchester brass and wlp primers.

First round is loaded manually from the magazine with no fouling or settling shot.

1.1" ctc for 5 shots at 25 yards with hi-tek coated 200 lswc bullets from missouri, and 2.7" ctc at 50 yards for 6 shots with dardas 200 lswc standard lube bullets. The 50 yard group was on a very rainy day and the light was low and I was using a neck hold on a ppc B-27 target. I've gotten a bunch of 1.3-1.5" groups as well.

I don't have any saved gropus with the Brown yet, but with my practice shooting for ppc it's shooting approx the same as my monolith.

I'm getting in some zero 185 jhp's tomorrow and hope to try some 4.2 bullseye and 4.2 grains of VV N310 loads which are the gold standard at 50 yards typically.

I think I'm going to put a standard recoil spring plug and guide rod in the brown since it just makes it easier to strip if I have a problem during a match.

I have found that the long dust cover of the baer makes it harder to assemble the slide onto the frame while holding the recoil spring compressed to avoid having to use a bushing wrench while the barrel/bushing are under tension. I prefer to do this rather than use a wrench on the bushing to avoid wear. The problem is that the long dust cover hits your hand before the rails have engaged so you have to let the spring/guide rod relax and sometimes it binds and you have to start over.

I also tried the 16.5# brown spring in the baer and it did not change the felt recoil at all, still more muzzle flip than the brown with the same load, so I put the 18# variable back into the baer.

Frank
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Last edited by burkefj; 04-28-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2017, 06:03 PM
Smac Smac is offline
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Might want to check but I think its 4.2gr of N310.
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2017, 06:14 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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Yes that was a typo, I did have the same load for N320 but the person was running a 10# spring.

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Might want to check but I think its 4.2gr of N310.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2017, 09:01 AM
Piexcel Piexcel is offline
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burkefj, thanks for the report! And congratulations for adding the Ed Brown to your collection.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:40 AM
rrabullseye rrabullseye is offline
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Try the Zero 185 LSCWHP over 3.9 of N310
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2017, 06:07 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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Here are some groups from this morning, I tried the zero jhp 185 with 4.2 grains of N310 with both a light .471 and heavier .469 crimp that I normally use, and also with a heavy crimp and 4.2 grains of bullseye. I seated them at 1.240 which was as long as I could go and still chamber in the baer, the brown could have taken 1.25 or slightly more.

Winchester cases, winchester lp primers
4.2 grains of N310 with zero 185 jhp's seated to 1.240 with .471 crimp
4.2 grains of N310 with zero 185 jhp's seated to 1.240 with .469 crimp
4.2 grains of bullseye with zero 185 jhp's seated to 1.240 with .469 crimp
3.5 grains of bullseye with Missouri coated lswc 200 seated to 1.255 with .469 crimp

All loads cycled in both pistols just fine. I shot off the bench at 25 and 50 yards with the first shot loaded manually from the magazine with no settling shot, with the below groups.

I did not get a great result at 50 yards with either pistol, the best being a 3.3" 5 shot group with the les Baer and bullseye and 185 jhp's, I got a good 2.5" 4 shot group with the N310 and 185 jhp's with the ed brown but the fifth shot to the right opened it up to 4". I have a best 2.7" 5 shot 50 yard group with 200 lswc's and 3.5 of bullseye, but I know I was not seeing the sights that great today, I had small targets and was aiming at the top of the bullseye so that they would stay on paper.

My best 25 yard groups were 1.24" with the brown and the lswc's, and 1.25" with the zero 185's and N310 with a light crimp and and 1.36" with bullseye with a .469 crimp. I also got 1.45" groups in both the baer and brown with the .469 crimp and N310. My best previously with the Baer was 1.1" for 5 shots with the coated lswc's.

All 4 loads with both pistols were less than 1.5" at 25 yards with both the zero 185 jph's and the missouri coated 200 lswc's. I also later tried some 4.2 grain N310 with 200 lswc coated bullet loads and they shot very well, but recoiled a bit more than my bullseye loads and I think I could bump those down to 3.9 or lower as someone just suggested for 185 lswchp's. I'm getting almost no leading with the coated bullets in either pistol, just a bit on the leade and it brushes out with no trouble.

End result, with multiple loads these are easily sub 1.5" 25 yard pistols and sub 1.25" with preferred loads and me doing my part.

Frank
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Last edited by burkefj; 04-30-2017 at 06:11 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2017, 08:20 PM
Smac Smac is offline
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What weight recoil spring are you using? Cannot get these to cycle in my Springer.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2017, 08:46 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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The brown has a 16.5# according to the factory and the Baer has a 18# variable rate they say.

Frank

QUOTE=Smac;9995954]What weight recoil spring are you using? Cannot get these to cycle in my Springer.[/QUOTE]
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:58 PM
rrabullseye rrabullseye is offline
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The Zeros and Noslers like to go fast. Try bumping it to 4.5 grains
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2017, 06:23 AM
Smac Smac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrabullseye View Post
The Zeros and Noslers like to go fast. Try bumping it to 4.5 grains
Will do. Thanks
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:59 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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Did some more shooting for groups today with the Ed Brown Classic. Got several 1.25" groups with my missouri 200 grain coated with 3.5 grains of bullseye load at 25 yards, and that load also shot a 5 shot 2.9" group at 50 yards. My best group was with the zero 185 and 4.2 grains of bullseye at 25 yards measuring 1.05" CTC, however I only got 3.5" at 50 yards.

I'd say that both pistols are shooting right about the same groups and now it is becoming a measure of how well I can see the sights and break the shots.

The missouri load is soft shooting, allowing me faster followups and leaving a pretty clean barrel, and is sub x ring at 25 yards which is good enough for my use, and are running about 14 cents per loaded round. (10Cents per bullet, 1 cent powder, 3 cents primer) And it seems to be consistent with both pistols.

I didn't try any increased N310 loads today, I may later just to see how they group, but for my use, lower recoil is better and I'm getting sufficient accuracy for 25 yards which is my max distance I need to shoot in our ppc matches.

Frank
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Last edited by burkefj; 05-01-2017 at 03:06 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2017, 11:31 AM
Oliver507 Oliver507 is offline
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Baer and Brown RR

Thanks for a very nice RR on these 2 pistols and your followup sessions.
Oliver507
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:30 PM
Piexcel Piexcel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burkefj View Post
I bought two mec-gar 8 round mags with removable base plates and they fit perfectly and are easy to load as well and are much easier to insert fully loaded into a pistol with the slide forward.
Are the Mec Gar eight-round magazines any good when it comes to feeding the gun reliably?
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  #21  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:37 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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100% so far, about 600 rounds through each one.

Frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piexcel View Post
Are the Mec Gar eight-round magazines any good when it comes to feeding the gun reliably?
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  #22  
Old 05-15-2017, 11:29 AM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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I've ordered the ed brown extended mag release and mag well funnel/checkered msh which will make the les baer match the ed brown in terms of setup. I did have to do a slight adjustment to the undercut on the grip safety to make sure it would clear the trigger with a less than perfect grip, but it is still plenty of engagement to be safe when not depressed in the monolith. The standard mag release was inconsistent for me in ejecting rounds, we are not allowed to raise the muzzle above the berm during reloads so it is harder to switch the position of the pistol enough to hit the button and not raise the muzzle, the brown button seems to work fine for me. The mag well helps a lot in quick reloads.

Triggers have now smoothed to 2.75 pounds in the EB and 3# in the baer that are both above 2K rounds now.

I'm now running 3.6 grains of bullseye with the 200 coated lswc missouri bullets with the les baer andwith the brown with the same recoil spring setup to give a similar ejection pattern/recoil impulse. I tried running 3.2-3.4 grains of bullseye with the baer as it would cycle softer but I was getting flyers at 25 yards, so went back to a faster load.

I shot the ed brown in a very rainy day on saturday and won the local PPC match I was shooting, it was not my best shooting, but I only dropped one point on the 60 rounds at 7 and 15 yards and 6 points at 25 yards on the second string, first string dropped 12 points at 25 so I know I can clean it up more. Interestingly in practice I was consistently right on or slightly over time and really had to rush to be under, but during the match I was about 5-10 seconds under time, I guess adrenaline kicked in, I didn't feel rushed in the match. Our ppc matches are open to all and don't really follow an exact nra course of fire, but does have 7, 15 and 25 yard stages, with prone, sitting, kneeling and barricade. It is a much longer 120 shot match, Equipment requirements are iron sight, no porting, 5" semi or 4" revolver max bbl length, and that is designed to take duty style ammunition of 6 rounds or more.

Frank
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Last edited by burkefj; 05-16-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:26 AM
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Thanks for write up on the Baer and Brown. I have a Baer but do not do competition. I have always enjoyed the accuracy of the Baer. Now with this write up I am going to do some experimenting with the loads you and RRA have posted. I may now be on the hunt for Ed Brown also.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:20 AM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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I posted this in another thread but it probably belongs here....

I did notice on my monolith the barrel lugs/ledge that sits on the slide stop pin seems much shorter front to back, when viewed from the side compared to my brown or a similar springfield barrel. It appears they are cut with a secondary angle that shortens the ledge somewhat. Not that it impacts the lifetime or this problem, just something I noticed. Also, my link pin hold is oversized, ie the link hole is not a snug fit on the pin, it is an original 3 marked part, but I've never seen the link hole oversized like this, I assume that the lockup is on the lugs so if the link hole is oversized it isn't impacting the lockup, again just something I noticed.

Picture shows the SA RO at the top, EB in the middle and LB at the bottom. I did note that the LB bottom lugs/feet are not fit, ie show full bluing, but the slide stop pin was fit, it the top half was visibly polished/fit and had all bluing removed, it is not completely round as well support the fitting of the slide stop pin. It isn't far off, from .200 to .203 in diameter.

The SA link pin hole measures .203, pin measures .198 so .05 clearance.
EB link pin hole measures .210, pin measures .201 so .09 clearance
LB link pin hole measures .217, pin measures .200 to .203 so .014 to .017 clearance. It migh be hard to see but the foot ledge that rests on the pin is shorter, mostly because of the second angle that cuts the ledge shorter.

Again, just for interest, not that there is a problem. I do notice even with the 18.5# variable spring in the LB versus the 16# fixed in the EB and springfield, and the same load of 3.6 grains of bullseye with a 200 lswc coated bullet that I get much more fouling in the EB pistol, especially under the barrel seat/frame area, I'm wondering if it is unlocking sooner due to the shorter bottom lug/foot area..allowing more gasses to get into the action. Even with the heavier slide, I note the baer cycles harder with the same load with the heavier spring.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:09 PM
burkefj burkefj is offline
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I've had 4-5 failures to fully chamber in my Monolith in the last 700 rounds, that were resolved with a hard bump on the mag bottom. I took out my extractor and did the extractor check and the front of the extractor hook which had a sharp corner/flat and was bumping into the taper in the front of the case, you can see a mark on the taper on the cases where it hits. I think this was rubbing occasionally and preventing the round from rolling up under the hook. I did some mild filing to gently curve the leading edge so that it does not now make contact with the tapered part of the casing, it's interestig the hook front is pretty far forward relative to the extractor cut in the casing.

Frank
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