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Combat Sight Picture

32K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  markm 
#1 ·
Curious about Sig 1911s and their sights, I have noticed that all the other pistols I have from them shoot low. In their FAQ the call this "combat" sight picture. So it this something they have made up to explain low shooting? I don't understand, throughout my life I have sighted either target (set aiming black on top of front sight) or other, which i would call combat (aiming for point of impact). I have now idea why you would aim above or cover your target with sights, personally i like to see what i'm shoot at.

So saw a 1911 ultra the other day, have many Colt, Kimber and SAs, do the sigs 1911s shoot low also?

Thanks,
Mark
 
#2 ·
How close are the targets your shooting at? Only thing I can think of is the bullet drop at a certain distance after leaving the muzzle. Sometimes at close distance work you need to aim a little high. For instance shooting a human silloette targets head from 15m and in with an AR you need to aim at the very top of the head or slightly above to hit the target in the "T" kill box(eyes and nose area, makes a "T"). 25m is the sweet spot where your sights are a perfect match with your bullets trajectory, for an AR anyway. Now I don't know pistols very well so this is just an asumption, but could be the same issue.

--- ProTH
 
#7 ·
Black out the rear sight "contrast" spot/spots. If it's a night sight put black tape on it.

Here's the deal. line up the top of the irons and note how the dots lined up. Then line up the dots and note how the tops of the irons line up. Combat sights are just that. for combat. Reaction shooting silhouettes at 10 yards it doesn't matter. You stretch that out the 25 yd precise target shooting you are going to introduce variations on your holds on target from all that conflicting information going to your eyes/brain. And frankly, all those compound angles on Novak style sights doesn't help. Note how flat true target sights are. It's for a reason.

Now when you black out the rear dots you will probably find greater consistency in your groups. From there it's just a matter of learning where the particular pistol in question needs to be held on target (with your individual eyes) if you don't have adjustable sights. I need to hold at about 2 o'clock on the seven ring at 25 yds to bullseye with my XO. It's hard to learn that when your hold is different each time. I prefer blacking out the front sight too, but I mostly shoot black targets at 25 and 50 yds, and the white dot can help me get on the center better.

That's what works for me anyway.
 
#8 ·
I was having the same issues with my C3, so I blacked out the rear sight too. In order to get the C3 to shoot POA, I have to use sight picture #2. It took me longer to line up correctly, so I covered the rear sight.

This is a rough estimate of how my C3 sight picture looks like.
 
#9 ·
Yup exactly what I was talking about. But the relationship of the dots is reversed in the illustration, which makes it even worse. The front dot, the one we're supposed to focus on is smaller not larger. So your eyes are drawn more to the big fat rear dots. And in my case, when I get my eye on the front sight, my eyes want to line up the top of the dots. Because they are easier to see than the black sights and the black bullseye background. But since the front dot is so much smaller, doing so consistently is very difficult.
 
#11 ·
It's a good story but I'm not buying, think about it, the center of the dots appear to be .060-.065 below the top of the sights, i would then expect the impact to be the same distance below since there is no angular difference between the dot placement of the sights.

All my sigs shoot like 3-4" low at 50' with the exception of a P239 that is pretty decent, in contrast to any one of a couple dozen kimbers, colts, SAs that shoot damn near dead on at that distance with top of sights level with center of target.

So next i guess the question is where do i get the right sights, I thought I had seen them on their web site before but can't find them now. I can calculate the number change if i just knew where to get them.

Mark
 
#16 ·
Yes I know how to fix it, with different height sights, and to the others I know how to shoot and what the dots are for, and I know what Kentucky windage is, I've been shooting for more years that I care to admit.
My original question was do Sig 1911's shoot low for anyone (not worded exactly) because most all of my other Sigs come from the factory shooting low. It always bothered be and I change the sights to correct, I found the follow quote on their site/FAQ and it kind of explained it, i just thought it was a stupid way to use sights...

" My SigSauer pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?
All SigSauer production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact. SigSauer, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards"

Mark
 
#15 · (Edited)
So......are we all in agreement that the proper way to aim is to have the tops of the sights lined up with an equal amount of space on each side in between the front and rear sight?

I'm pretty sure that's how I was taught to shoot and have charged people money to learn to shoot this way. Maybe I need to issue some refunds. :)

Seriously, don't target shoot using the dots. The dots are there for a quick visual reference to aid you in getting the sights lined up. The dots should not be used to line up your sights. Ideally, the dots should line up better but it looks like this is not the case.

If you want to shoot with the hold you want, a shorter front sight is needed to bring the point of impact up. Or you could just use sight picture 2 as posted above and change nothing.

There is no better story than the truth.
 
#18 ·
Measure the sight height from the top of the sight to the slide and report back.

Sig 1911 sights are not numbered like P series guns are so figuring out what sight height you will need will require some quick math.

I'm not trying to start a fight here but if the company has this posted on their website, the sights probably aren't off. You just aren't used to their sight picture. I know for a fact that these guns get shot and the lots will get targeted. If they are shooting low on a target, they don't pass and get sent back from the range.

If you insist on changing the sight, measure it and I might be able to help you figure out what height you need. Dawson Precision has a sight height chart that tells you how much sight height you need to lose to bring the POI up at a given distance.

Let me know what I can do to help.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I realize this is an old post but figured i would add my 2 cents. My dad purchased 2 sig p938's last week. One for him and for me (nice christmas gift). Yesterday he and i went out back and were breaking them in and seeing how they shot. Before i continue i will say i am a proficient shooter and send hundreds if not thousands of lead down range every year while my dad has kinda let his skills slack over the years. Now as i shot mine i found my POI was about 8" right and 10" low at 10 yards using the steel sights. His POI was very similar with the steel sights but he has the crimson trace laser guard on his so we were able to adjust that and found it shot pretty nice using laser. I then drifted both of our rear sights with my home made sight tool and fixed the left/right issue on both pistols. But since the elevation cant be fixed so easily we both need to order new lower front sights to fix elevation issue. When I got home i actually read the sig manual (Not common for me to do) and saw Sig sets their sights using a combat sighting which places the front dot directly at the POI rather than on top of front sight which is what i have done for 30 some years. So using that the pistols actually shoot pretty close to where we aim. However i am not going to change how i aim and look down the sights so i will order new lower front sights and hope this sweet ass little pistol becomes my go to pocket pistol.
 
#21 · (Edited)
10" at 10yds is an awful lot. 938's use the same sights as their P-series, at 25yds each number makes a 1" difference on the front sights and 2" on the rear. I'm not sure there's enough numbers for your problem, certainly
not on the front alone.
I have three 938's they have 6's on the front, one has 8 on the rear (think that's what they came with) and the other two I changed to 10 on the rear.
I have a bag of 6 and 8's that I've changed out and I'm glad I kept them because a couple Sig's I bought recently actually shot high so I went down to the 6's.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Yes, 10" at 10 yards did seem like alot. If i used Sigs intended combat sight picture then it would not be as drastic. This elevation error was basically the same using 3 different types of ammo also (Winchester 115gr round nose, Hornady 124gr Critical defense, and some older Magtech 115gr round nose). I am going to borrow a pistol vise and confirm my findings to remove human error and then do a little math and hopefully find a sight combination that corrects the error. Both ours came with the #6 front sight. The rear sight i am not sure, all it says is MH3 AO.


Boatdoc.. Yes, i am aware that i am not using the sight picture that Sig designed their sights to be used for. Using the combat sight picture and putting the front dot where i want to aim rather than directly below would naturally raise my POI. However i don't want to try and remember that hold for this one pistol. Every other pistol i own and shoot i hold front sight below aim point so i can still see intended POI and i would prefer to change this pistol to do the same. Just what i am used to. Appreciate the info though.

I will get it sorted out. Just gonna take some tinkering. If all else fails i always have the laser option like my dads. Just not a fan of relying on lasers. Dad likes them cause he hopes just the sight of that red dot will be enough to deter a would be bad guy. I am not so optimistic and prefer a firearm i know will hit where i am aiming even if battery went dead or it was to bright to find red dot.

I also know that this will never replace my full size 1911's for 25+ yard tack driving accuracy. But for a pocket pistol that is mainly intended for 0-50 feet roughly i will be happy with a 1-4" group at 10 yards. That's good enough for center mass all day long. Any further away than 10 yards i stand a good chance of being able to move and find cover to improve my odds.
 
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