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  #176  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:01 AM
341 341 is offline
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Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
My one lesson I learned - was the double tapped turned quickly into a triple tap (on purpose) but if you trained to "dump the mag" till click - I could easily see someone emptying a mag and never hitting a shot.
Thank you for taking the time to post your experience and answer the questions posed. I am grateful that you were able to protect yourself and your wife.

The sentence I quoted will influence how I practice.

Thanks again.

Troy341
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  #177  
Old 12-22-2016, 01:49 AM
Drakulya Drakulya is offline
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Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I had found this testing done on ammunition for compact guns with barrels typical under 4". The 9mm rounds were tested using a Smith & Wesson M&P9c, 3.5-inch barrel. I also stand firmly behind my EMP and found this info very useful. You can scroll down the page till you find the 9mm results. I sorted them based on expansion and then proceeded to find the rounds with the best expansion and penetration. Here is the link: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

based on these tests I have loaded my EMP with Federal 150 gr Micro HST. The great thing is Federal designed these bullets for compact guns hence the micro name. The Winchester 147 gr Ranger -T would have been nice but no one has them available for sale to the public. The Barnes 115 gr TAC-XPD +P is my second choice. I have fired both rounds in my EMP and it took them with no problems. The gun did shoot smoother with the Federal, actually really nice even smoother than my target ammo. The barnes had more kick to it but I'm sure that's the +p. I hope this can be of some help finding a good round for your EMP. Once again thanks for sharing your story and congratulations on a Beautiful family.
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  #178  
Old 12-22-2016, 03:31 AM
higgy1911 higgy1911 is offline
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I may have missed it in the OP statement but what was the background of the perp?

Were you guys targeted randomly? The perp was a stranger who saw your car running in the driveway is the impression I got, is that correct?
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  #179  
Old 12-22-2016, 08:40 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Unfortunate home invasion.....

It is completely insane to think that every human on this planet is sane! Those that wish to harm and kill innocent people, IMHO, are not sane and should not be allowed to live on this planet.....!

I would think that the aftermath of the home invasion, and living in fear, may be mitigated to some extent with better security for the home, weapon training, and ongoing practice with firearms to be able to hit where you aim under stress.

I know enough to not have a main front door with glass.....a solid door with good deadbolts is harder to gain entry. If a person has glass around any doors, a good double key deadbolt, not one that turns a knob to lock, is a better choice. If some someone breaks through the glass, they can't turn the deadbolt without a key.....so once again, gaining entry takes more time, which may help alert anyone that may be home.

As far as firearms, I always recommend to use the most powerful handgun that a person can make good COM hits....regardless of caliber. A good hit with a +P 9mm JHP is better than a miss with a .45acp.....a person needs to take the time to find out which handgun and caliber allows them to "hit where they aim" and if it is best to practice regularly to be able to shoot a powerful self defense load from 7 - 15 yards with accuracy..... any caliber +P JHP in 9mm, .38 super, .40S&W, .45acp, etc. will get the job done with good shot placement. FIND OUT WHAT YOU SHOOT BEST AND CONTINUE A PRACTICE REGIMEN. Even if you only get to the range once per month, dry fire is also good practice.....

Know your state laws for the justifiable use of lethal force. In my home state of Florida, a person that invades your home without consent is legally considered a threat and lethal force may be used if necessary without legal complications. There are exceptions, such as disparity of force, etc., but more often than not, the state takes the view that a person that has invaded your home has caused the homeowner to be in fear for their life. However, a person outside your home that is stealing your property does not allow the homeowner to use lethal force, and legal complications will most likely develop, with possible arrest.

I know and understand the justifiable use of lethal force for my state. I have taken precautions for good home security, have an alarm system, and have been shooting competitively at a high level in both NRA Bullseye, IDPA, and USPSA. I received a concealed carry permit the first year the state of Florida became a "shall issue" permit state in 1987, and I have been carrying concealed ever since without issue. I prefer to carry a 1911 all steel Combat Commander in .38 super.....I do not care for any caliber less than a 9mm, and do not like to use 3" barreled guns or smaller, even though they may be convenient for concealed carry.

I have never had to draw my weapon, and have never had to shoot anyone.....and I am happy with that.....however, I am prepared for the worst and hope for a good outcome if I ever need to protect my life or the lives of my loved ones....... Teddy Roosevelt is thought to have coined the phrase "Speak softly but carry a big stick!" Words to live by.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-22-2016 at 08:53 AM.
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  #180  
Old 12-22-2016, 10:34 AM
Riverboys Riverboys is offline
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A gripping and very scary story. Thank you for sharing. This post and the follow ups are excellent information.
Regarding Home defense, I have had my wife try my 1911, no good for her.
She is doing better with the new CZ 75D PCR, recoil and slide racking wise. More practice is coming.
As a potential loaded safe gun, I like the CZ in decocked mode, just pull the trigger.

But is is our AR that she handles the best, by far, loading, chambering, firing etc.

The OP is one incredibly brave man, standing basically naked, in a gun fight with a psycho armed with a sword! Wow.
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  #181  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:09 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by 341 View Post
Thank you for taking the time to post your experience and answer the questions posed. I am grateful that you were able to protect yourself and your wife.

The sentence I quoted will influence how I practice.

Thanks again.

Troy341
Just left the range today. The shots I valued the most were the the first mag from the gun cold. Out of my new Ed Brown - all in the center hole at 30'. Not too bad.
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  #182  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:19 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by higgy1911 View Post
I may have missed it in the OP statement but what was the background of the perp?

Were you guys targeted randomly? The perp was a stranger who saw your car running in the driveway is the impression I got, is that correct?
College Educated, No priors except DUI, Insurance Adjuster, no drugs in the system - 0.3 BAC (yep, and still coherent).

Ended up being a new unknown neighbor that had just moved into the area a few weeks prior. He hosted a super bowl party and broke out of his own house (yep - you read that right) and tried stealing a U-Haul truck at a business next door. Saw the wife drive by and followed her on foot (think stalking) to our house where he crawled in the running car in our drive (20 something degrees outside) - and waited for her to exit the house again. I think he original had only planned to steal a vehicle but changed his mind when he saw the good looking woman (I married very well - lol).
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  #183  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:28 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
...snip...

I would think that the aftermath of the home invasion, and living in fear, may be mitigated to some extent with better security for the home, weapon training, and ongoing practice with firearms to be able to hit where you aim under stress.

I know enough to not have a main front door with glass.....a solid door with good deadbolts is harder to gain entry. If a person has glass around any doors, a good double key deadbolt, not one that turns a knob to lock, is a better choice. If some someone breaks through the glass, they can't turn the deadbolt without a key.....so once again, gaining entry takes more time, which may help alert anyone that may be home.

...snip...

I have never had to draw my weapon, and have never had to shoot anyone.....and I am happy with that.....however, I am prepared for the worst and hope for a good outcome if I ever need to protect my life or the lives of my loved ones....... Teddy Roosevelt is thought to have coined the phrase "Speak softly but carry a big stick!" Words to live by.....
Completely agree with your statements - I would also add - I was shooting a gun without my eyeglasses (I can't see at distance), in a stressful situation, nearly naked, standing on broken glass, and was able to place a shot on a 3" or smaller exposed section of the perp's leg. The next shot went to a 6" section of his exposed chest - the next two were fired following the 2nd and missed - shouldn't have fired those that quickly...but adrenaline makes it easy. My point - paper never shoots back, never ducks, never hide behind cover, and never has a heartbeat. Practice at the range but make sure you also have your mind prepared as well for all situations.

Have you ever shot your pistol with the morning sun glaring in your eyes without sunglasses or prescriptions? Have you ever stood barefooted on gravel that hurts and shoot at 3" diameter steel? Probably not - but that's similar to what I faced.

I've been back and forth on home security... We have an alarm, we have a better door now (but not much), the deadbolt done it's job (once locked), but I refuse to live in a prison inside my own home. Of course, that said - I still make sure I have a gun on me or nearby anytime I'm home.

Thanks again for the comments and I hope no one ever has to draw a weapon in defense of themselves or others. However, if the need does arise - I pray that people are prepared and maybe something I've said has helped them. Romans 8:28 will explain my thoughts better than I can...
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  #184  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:30 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by Riverboys View Post
A gripping and very scary story. Thank you for sharing. This post and the follow ups are excellent information.
Regarding Home defense, I have had my wife try my 1911, no good for her.
She is doing better with the new CZ 75D PCR, recoil and slide racking wise. More practice is coming.
As a potential loaded safe gun, I like the CZ in decocked mode, just pull the trigger.

But is is our AR that she handles the best, by far, loading, chambering, firing etc.

The OP is one incredibly brave man, standing basically naked, in a gun fight with a psycho armed with a sword! Wow.
My wife also feels better with the AR then any other weapon systems she has used (including her own pistol) and the 31 rounds locked and loaded gives her a little more comfort if she misses
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  #185  
Old 01-05-2017, 04:29 PM
x595 x595 is offline
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Sorry you and your family had to go through an ordeal like that, but glad "you" and "yours" came out on top. What model and caliber of Ed Browns did you get?
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  #186  
Old 01-05-2017, 05:54 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by x595 View Post
Sorry you and your family had to go through an ordeal like that, but glad "you" and "yours" came out on top. What model and caliber of Ed Browns did you get?
Executive Carry in .45acp. Build thread / info found here: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=689929
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  #187  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:10 PM
3RidersApproaching 3RidersApproaching is offline
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Cc.... I know you were wishing for more potency from your pistol that day, AND more capacity.

I'm a little surprised that your answer was a 1911, giving you no increase in capacity vs. the EMP you had that day. Nice bump in potency, though, and a very good pistol.

Have you considered something like the M&P40, which with 16 rounds of 180 gr Federal HST on board would give you not only double the capacity, but also a relatively potent, well-proven-performing round?

Don't get me wrong on 1911s, as I'm a big fan of them and have many, including an Ed Brown Class A Commander. But with danger at the door, if I'm going to meet and greet with a pistol, the M&P40 with 16 rounds of 180 gr HST will be my choice, or a G21SF with 14-rounds of 230 gr HST. Capacity, especially with a pistol (without being able to count on the time/opportunity to perform a reload) can be incredibly important.

My first choice, however, is one of these two 12 ga. Semi -autos:

Remington Versamax Tactical and Beretta 1301 Tactical


12 gauge 00 Buck has incredible stopping power, far better than any pistol could even come close to offering. A quick double=tap with one of these would likely bring the threat to a sudden and decisive end.
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Last edited by 3RidersApproaching; 01-06-2017 at 07:21 PM.
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  #188  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:53 PM
GTX GTX is offline
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Thanks for sharing, I will apply your lessons to protecting my family.
So glad you and your family was not injured during this deranged lunatics rampage.
Be safe and god bless.
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  #189  
Old 01-07-2017, 03:41 PM
dgludwig dgludwig is offline
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There’s no more innocence in the world, there’s no more safety, there is no more peace,
Unfortunately, there never really was nor is, and your preparedness and will of mind saved you and your family's lives. I live in a fairly "safe" neighborhood and a close friend of mine has often vaunted that he never locks the doors to his home. He thinks I, a retired le officer, am being paranoid because we keep ours locked at all times, day and night.The boogie man is real, whether he's known as a serial killer, a sociopath, a terrorist or a wannabe burglar trying to steal your car and your life, peace and security in broad daylight and he is out there. It is up to each and every one of us to do whatever we can to keep our family safe, just as the op did.

cadconversions, may God continue to bless you and your family and God bless America.
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  #190  
Old 01-07-2017, 05:10 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by 3RidersApproaching View Post
Cc.... I know you were wishing for more potency from your pistol that day, AND more capacity.

I'm a little surprised that your answer was a 1911, giving you no increase in capacity vs. the EMP you had that day. Nice bump in potency, though, and a very good pistol.

Have you considered something like the M&P40, which with 16 rounds of 180 gr Federal HST on board would give you not only double the capacity, but also a relatively potent, well-proven-performing round?

Don't get me wrong on 1911s, as I'm a big fan of them and have many, including an Ed Brown Class A Commander. But with danger at the door, if I'm going to meet and greet with a pistol, the M&P40 with 16 rounds of 180 gr HST will be my choice, or a G21SF with 14-rounds of 230 gr HST. Capacity, especially with a pistol (without being able to count on the time/opportunity to perform a reload) can be incredibly important.

My first choice, however, is one of these two 12 ga. Semi -autos:

Remington Versamax Tactical and Beretta 1301 Tactical


12 gauge 00 Buck has incredible stopping power, far better than any pistol could even come close to offering. A quick double=tap with one of these would likely bring the threat to a sudden and decisive end.
My answer was actually an AR-15 with 30 rounds of 5.56.... I went through each scenario multiple times with a shotgun, with a pistol (of any size, capacity, caliber), with me, with my wife alone, with my son.... and every time I did - there was always one clear winner.... An AR015.

While I could handle a 12 guage (and do so often) - my wife and younger son never could right now. While clearing the house - a long shotgun would be terrible to use. Sights aren't that great and they do require (regardless of popular belief) to be aimed.

A pistol is the worse home defense weapon... They are hard to shoot, hard to hold, easier to drop, easier to shoot yourself, and much harder to aim and hit a target.

An AR - excels at all of those things and with a weapon's light, sling, and 30+ rounds on board - you should be able to handle any threat at your door.

The Ed Brown was more of a "glad to have you around for the last 20 years and even more glad to still have you for the next 20"
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  #191  
Old 01-07-2017, 05:12 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by GTX View Post
Thanks for sharing, I will apply your lessons to protecting my family.
So glad you and your family was not injured during this deranged lunatics rampage.
Be safe and god bless.
Thank you and that's my hope - that everyone takes something away from it and learns lessons that may help them later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgludwig View Post
Unfortunately, there never really was nor is, and your preparedness and will of mind saved you and your family's lives. I live in a fairly "safe" neighborhood and a close friend of mine has often vaunted that he never locks the doors to his home. He thinks I, a retired le officer, am being paranoid because we keep ours locked at all times, day and night.The boogie man is real, whether he's known as a serial killer, a sociopath, a terrorist or a wannabe burglar trying to steal your car and your life, peace and security in broad daylight and he is out there. It is up to each and every one of us to do whatever we can to keep our family safe, just as the op did.

cadconversions, may God continue to bless you and your family and God bless America.
Thanks - that's the one thing that still haunts us today - you really learn there's evil in the world at every corner. Kind of lose that innocence you lived in.
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  #192  
Old 01-07-2017, 06:04 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by 3RidersApproaching View Post
Cc.... I know you were wishing for more potency from your pistol that day, AND more capacity.

I'm a little surprised that your answer was a 1911, giving you no increase in capacity vs. the EMP you had that day. Nice bump in potency, though, and a very good pistol.
I don't think either potency or capacity was a failure in the OPs situation. While its easy to blame the equipment, had he had a 16 round hi cap 9mm, or a 13 round .45, the outcome, based on the OPs actions, wouldn't be much different.

He fired 8 rounds. 6 missed completely, 3 of those were INTENTIONAL misses... of the 2 hits, one was INTENTIONALLY fired at a non lethal, non incapacitating area... of the one potentially lethal hit, fate intervened...

Capacity became an issue because of a decision, a choice, to burn ammunition with no realistic expectation of decisively ending the event.

While I believe the .45 has a greater probability of ending a fight than the 9mm, all eles being equal, upping caliber probably wouldn't have changed this event either.

I agree that a 12ga has the greatest fight stopping potential, massive momentum, energy and 9+ separate wound channels to tear things up.... 15 if you run a good #1buck. Biggest flaws are length and limited capacity...

The AR is a good compromise, if one bothers to use it to its potential. Plenty of ammo, easy handling...

Quote:
While clearing the house....
At the risk of being rude, and its not my intent, you have no business whatsoever "clearing" anything; you do not have the capability to do so safely or effectively. Clearing a structure or objective is ALWAYS a team sport, and one that's carefully rehearsed and choreographed... I've made a career of such things, and I have no business attempting to to it solo...
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  #193  
Old 01-07-2017, 06:18 PM
wormraper wormraper is online now
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wow, talk about a powerful story. I truly feel for you guys that you had to experience that. It just solidified in my mind that while I'm prepared and WILLING to protect myself liket that, I really hope to god it never happens to any of us in our lifetime. However, you acted well and reacted better than most people would have.

I do agree with your later assessment, being under gunned is NOT a good thought. It's why I've got quick access to about 8 or 9 fully loaded guns within 20 feet of the door. You never know when your 6-8 shot gun suddenly becomes VERY puny feeling. Good job and my heart goes out to the feelings of being violated. But well done my friend, well done
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  #194  
Old 01-07-2017, 06:55 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I don't think either potency or capacity was a failure in the OPs situation. While its easy to blame the equipment, had he had a 16 round hi cap 9mm, or a 13 round .45, the outcome, based on the OPs actions, wouldn't be much different.

He fired 8 rounds. 6 missed completely, 3 of those were INTENTIONAL misses... of the 2 hits, one was INTENTIONALLY fired at a non lethal, non incapacitating area... of the one potentially lethal hit, fate intervened...

Capacity became an issue because of a decision, a choice, to burn ammunition with no realistic expectation of decisively ending the event.

While I believe the .45 has a greater probability of ending a fight than the 9mm, all eles being equal, upping caliber probably wouldn't have changed this event either.

I agree that a 12ga has the greatest fight stopping potential, massive momentum, energy and 9+ separate wound channels to tear things up.... 15 if you run a good #1buck. Biggest flaws are length and limited capacity...

The AR is a good compromise, if one bothers to use it to its potential. Plenty of ammo, easy handling...
Absolutely correct - in that capacity wasn't really my issue - I still had one round left in my pistol when it was over but I would like to state something again - just for those reading through the thread to help them keep score...lol

When shooting at paper or steel - you're always presented center mass. In the real world - I'd prefer a guy running at my with a hobbled leg than a good leg. While I wasn't presented with the chance to fire a "lethal" hit with the leg shot - it was clearly intentioned to try to stop or at minimum deter the threat... Just didn't want it to get lost that you take the shot you have in that moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
At the risk of being rude, and its not my intent, you have no business whatsoever "clearing" anything; you do not have the capability to do so safely or effectively. Clearing a structure or objective is ALWAYS a team sport, and one that's carefully rehearsed and choreographed... I've made a career of such things, and I have no business attempting to to it solo...
Not taking it as rude and please don't take my response as so either - but having "cleared" my house at 2:00 am in the morning with the alarm blaring and my son in the other part of the house - you better believe I'm clearing the house. The wife is holed up in the bedroom with 911 but I'm getting to my kid and doing everything to get between him and the bad guy.

However, when the alarm has went off and we've reached the house before the police officers arrive - yes, I waited at a safe distance and allowed them to clear the house for me.

Again, there is no clear "correct all the time" methods to self-defense other than know what direction you are shooting and who you are shooting. So appreciate the feedback.
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  #195  
Old 01-07-2017, 07:14 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
Not taking it as rude and please don't take my response as so either - but having "cleared" my house at 2:00 am in the morning with the alarm blaring and my son in the other part of the house - you better believe I'm clearing the house. The wife is holed up in the bedroom with 911 but I'm getting to my kid and doing everything to get between him and the bad guy.
Perfectly understandable, and I'd do the same if need be. However, you're conducting a movement, from one point to another; you're not "clearing" anything. You're simply re positioning to defend a family member, and dealing with any threats that may present enroute.

Clearing involves ensuring, with 100% certainty, that there are no hostiles between your start and finish point, and the ability to hold the structure. If there's 4 rooms between your start and finish point, and you're clearing, you enter each room and ensure its safe. If your objective is to get to to your endpoint as quickly and safely as possible, you may very well bypass those rooms if it can be safely done- they're not "clear"... but you've gotten past them to achieve your desired endstate.
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  #196  
Old 01-08-2017, 08:05 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Perfectly understandable, and I'd do the same if need be. However, you're conducting a movement, from one point to another; you're not "clearing" anything. You're simply re positioning to defend a family member, and dealing with any threats that may present enroute.

Clearing involves ensuring, with 100% certainty, that there are no hostiles between your start and finish point, and the ability to hold the structure. If there's 4 rooms between your start and finish point, and you're clearing, you enter each room and ensure its safe. If your objective is to get to to your endpoint as quickly and safely as possible, you may very well bypass those rooms if it can be safely done- they're not "clear"... but you've gotten past them to achieve your desired endstate.
Great point
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  #197  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:12 AM
Bullseye308 Bullseye308 is offline
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Wow, thank you for sharing your story. I'm new here, and just found this, and this is a subject I have studied for a while now. The Lord had His hand on you and yours that day for sure, and I pray the psychological damage wil lessen in time. The Good Lord willing I will never be forced to shoot anyone, but in the event I am forced to, I pray I do at least as well as you did. My main interest is the psychological damage involved and dealing with it from then on. To that point I have spoken with many people that have had to pull the trigger and deal with the aftermath mentally. I really wanted to know what I was in for in the event, and found it is like watching someone pass away slowly. You know it's going to happen, you prepare for it, but when it happens, you feel like you just got drop kicked by Hulk Hogan.

I carry a Glock 17 from the time I get up till I go to bed. Without exception I am never more than 3' from it(shower) and also keep a Glock 17L in a holster on the night table by the bed with a TLR-1 HL on it. My wife has her Ruger SR9 on her side of the bed, there is an 870 behind the front door, and a Ruger GP-100 6" 357 centrally located in the house. I just brought a few 1911's into the fold(2-9mm's & 1-45) because I was finally able to. I keep one of my Range Officers in a safe in my vehicle with a few loaded mags, a couple extra Glock mags in there as well. Some have called me unrealistic and overly paranoid, and they might be right, but it comforts me and I do swing by the range every chance I get.

Evil lurks in every place, it can come upon us at any time, from any direction with little to no warning. I'd rather be prepared in the event of, and not need it..... Crime is on the rise all over, looting, rioting, break-ins, car jackings, robbery, raping, assault and more seem to be more common now. Having not been in a position where I had to pull a gun, I still practice frequently and realistically as I can while hoping I never have to. Caliber, capacity, compact or full sized is up to you, making good hits and enough of them is what matters. Sometimes Murphy intervenes and sticks an e-cig in the way of a fight stopping round, you just have to practice to be the best you can be with what you choose to use and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

OP, I believe you did incredibly well with what you were faced with and the conditions you operated under. You are a true blessing to your family and community. God willing you will never see a dark day like that again so long as you live.
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  #198  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:34 PM
dgludwig dgludwig is offline
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Crime is on the rise all over, looting, rioting, break-ins, car jackings, robbery, raping, assault and more seem to be more common now.
You are paranoid! I'm going to have to start locking all of my doors at home now... (see post no. 189)
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  #199  
Old Today, 10:05 AM
bmur66 bmur66 is online now
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Thanks for sharing. Glad you are all OK.
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  #200  
Old Today, 10:14 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye308 View Post

Crime is on the rise all over, looting, rioting, break-ins, car jackings, robbery, raping, assault and more seem to be more common now.
Begging pardon, but in what alternate universe do you live? Violent crime in the US is at a 40+ year low... thats a hard, documented reality- a fact.

You HEAR about it more, because there's a 24 hour news cycle, and you have access to all manner of information on the internet... it creates an illusion of increased crime, but its just an illusion.
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