Home Invasion and Lessons learned - Page 5 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 11-21-2016, 03:35 PM
95jza80tt 95jza80tt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Northern Kaliforniastan
Posts: 57
Thanks for sharing your story and your accounts of what happened. I felt a swarm of emotions through your words and get the feeling that was just a minutia of the underlying feelings within. My thoughts are with you and your family as you continue to repair the internal damage that weights so much heavier then the monetary. I'm new to gun ownership and your story has reaffirmed me that I made the right choice in ensuring that my family and home is protected. My only predicament is procuring a CCW in my local area is on the border of being impossible without being some type of celebrity or well connected individual. The other hurdle that I face now is just finding the time and place to train.
  #102  
Old 11-21-2016, 03:43 PM
substratum substratum is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Red Hills Region of North Florida
Posts: 2
Thank you for sharing this story.

It comforts me to know that my wife and daughter have been trained by LEOs in the art of defensive shooting. Makes me want to get us all out to the range more often, and to schedule training more often.
  #103  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:01 PM
Northface Northface is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 91
Lessons learned...

* Know your ammo. (AND YOUR GUN BARREL)

Very true. I suggest that the research done by caliber, by barrel length and ammo brands and shared at http://ballisticsbytheinch.com is a valuable tool for us all.

Glad you and yours made it through.
__________________
"A gun is a tool, Marion. No better and no worse than any other tool - an axe, a shovel, or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that." --from "Shane" (Alan Ladd) -1953

Last edited by Northface; 11-21-2016 at 07:04 PM.
 
  #104  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:11 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,570
A good source for ballistics data:

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=502914

...out of 3.5" barrels.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. ~Samuel Adams~
  #105  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:01 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Out of a 3.5" barrel, the 124gn Gold Dot is an average 9mm performer at best- as it is out of a 4 or 5" pipe... I seriously doubt the lack of 1/2" of barrel had anything to do with the ballistic failures... its just the nature of the bullet; they do crazy and unpredictable things. Something small is the difference between dying and living. You simply weren't meant to kill that day....
If you haven't got to check out this series of video on youtube - very eye opening comparison between the different 9mm SD rounds... Here's the one on Speer Gold Dot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Ux...DMgd-w4Yozc27i
  #106  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:12 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanca Busa View Post
Thank you for the further explanation. The bolded above does bring one more question though. How tall is this guy?
If he was standing behind your open car door and your round went thru the door glass how'd it hit his hat? Did it pass thru and deflect straight up toward his head or something? Your house lower than parked car up in driveway?


Also to this point you really haven't shared how your hits affected him?
One shot in the leg and another passed straight thru his torso area?
Where in the leg did you hit him?
He drove off in your debilitated car and was found 4 minutes later.
Did he nearly die or was he still full of piss and vinegar when the cops got him?
According to his mugshot - about 5'-11"

I was in a squatted position leaning out the broken glass of the door - so I was slightly aiming upwards at him. However, the round completely deflected from the glass - changing it's path from center mass to nearly (less than a 1/16") hitting his head - passing through the hat he was wearing in three places.

The round that hit his leg passed straight through. Had he not screamed, "You shot me, M F'r" - I doubt I would have even known I hit him. If you could imagine someone reaching through the glass door searching for the deadbolt lock - and exposing just their leg and hand - I chose the leg.... Zero effect on stopping him, Zero effect on deterring him - it only served to enrage him. He broke out the window next to the door and told me I better get ready to kill him that he was coming in to kill us.

The next shot hit his chest but caught an E-cig - that again, deflected the round across his chest.

After the shot that nearly took off his head - yes, he hopped in my car and drove off in reverse while I fired the last two shots. I retreated back into the bedroom to grab a new mag.... Unknown to me at the time, the responding officer tops the hill and Nathan changes directions and speeds back through my yard. With the front tire shot out - he wasn't able to make it through my field and got stuck on a dirt berm.

He was yanked at gun point from the car and when the officer asked his name - he responded, "Death"

From the time my wife dialed 911 till they had him in custody - was only 8 minutes total time. Responding officer drove over 100 mph towards the scene...
  #107  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:19 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Just curious---------------- a SWORD? What kind of sword?

Foil, Katana, Broadsword, Machete?
After the incident - I learned it was a "costume" sword but it more than qualified as a dangerous / lethal weapon. Imagine a piece of steel that's about 3/16" - 1/4" thick, about 36" long, with a secure handle, and being swung at full force... Kind of hard to see if it was sharpened or not... Of course, most swords are designed for the swing not the cut.
  #108  
Old 11-21-2016, 10:01 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Glad you are safe and through the court case, but your journey is not over. You and your wife must plan to be at every parole board hearing, and when - not If- he gets out you-and your wife will be living in high yellow awareness, and should be armed at all times.
First, thank you so much for the thoughtful reply and writing. It means a lot to hear from people like yourself that truly care for their fellow man.

This event took place in Feb of 2015 - by this point we have lost count at the number of times we've been in court so far. However, in KY - they only give us a chance to respond in writing for the parole hearing and they are held in the prison where he's kept. If I find a way to speak directly to the parable board - you better believe I'll travel that distance to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
for thought: Firing a "warning shot" makes you both criminally and civilly liable. You should only shoot when you have made the decision to STOP the threat, and shoot until the threat is eliminated - either by the assailant fleeing the scene completely, or is unable to continue his attack. One other thought: Did you have a spare magazine ready to reload with?
Each situation is unique and we must be extremely careful to apply a broad brush stroke to every situation the same. My warning shot wasn't fired out of lack of training or not knowing what the experts teach. My warning shot was calculated and purposeful. ONLY to our unique situation, and after spending the last 21 months rehearsing this over and over again in my head - I would have made the same decision.

At the point where the warning shot was fired - I had not seen Nathan face to face - he was trying to convince me he was coming in my house and was trying to convince him he was staying out. When he reached through the glass of the door to unlock it and enter the home - I realized that if he came through - we were within 15' of each other and way to close for comfort.

I thought about the repercussions of firing the gun indoors without hearing protection, I thought about 2 million different things in those seconds but at that moment - I knew my life was in danger. The warning shot was meant to end the fight by a show of force and the willingness to use that force. I knew if I hadn't seen him - he hadn't seen me and didn't know if I was bluffing about having a gun or not. I wasn't ready to kill another man for just "stealing my car" but I wasn't letting him come in either. If he wanted the car - just take it and leave.

Once the warning shot was fired and he became more aggressive and determined to enter my residence - the rest of the shots were fired without hesitation or second thought to ending his life.

While the law may have cleared me of all wrong doings if the first shot was lethal - my own conscience was more satisfied knowing I gave him every chance to be reasonable and to surrender to the responding officier before I fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
would encourage you and your wife to get some more training. Sounds like you have had some from your thought processes described during the engagement re: weapon manipulation/marksmanship, but your tactics... well, no battle plan survives the first minute of the engagement. One then has to draw from their playbook. If you haven't one, then you have to rely on Lady Luck. Fortunately, she smiled on you that day.

I would suggest you and your wife take a vacation and got to Gunsite for their 250.

Congratulations on surviving your baptism by fire. Welcome to the brutal underbelly of world that few people outside of law enforcement see, but only read about and quickly forget, thinking it only happens to "other people". Those that see it up close and personal never forget, and can only prepare for the next incident, praying it never comes.

Always be courteous in your dealings with others that you meet in the course of your daily comings and goings, but always have a plan to kill them, if need be.

God keep you and yours safe.

Regards,
Andy
We always welcome more opportunities to learn and hopefully to attend more comprehensive training as a family in the future. I am thankful for the training I had, the instinct to defend what was mine, to hold my ground, to focus on the threat, to yell loudly, to ensure as proper of a backstop as possible, and to access the threat and only use lethal force when I felt compelled that there was no other way.

Again, thanks for the great reply!
  #109  
Old 11-21-2016, 10:19 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,028
Thank you for disclosing what the sword was. Most lean more toward the decorative side these days. But are still plenty dangerous nonetheless.

I watched some frat boys chopping up pumpkins with a "pirate" saber (probably from the mall) that was as dull as a yardstick. But swung with force did the trick. Plus they "ran them through" without effort.

A nut intent on killing you with one certainly could have.

I just asked because other than machetes (yard tools) swords of the edged type tend to be either antiques or expensive reproductions/customs.

& I did not expect some druggie dirtbag to have either of those.
  #110  
Old 11-21-2016, 10:34 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,028
Another note on this. A few times on this forum I have commented dismissively about "shot placement" and "focusing on the front sight" when it comes to defense shooting.

Because, as Clint said "a man needs to know his limitations" And Plato said "know thyself"

Well, here's ME knowing both myself & my limitations:

I'd probably just point & shoot. Plus not take my eyes off the guy who's trying to kill me.

And I think many of the guys who think that they ARE going to do careful aiming & proper technique are kidding themselves.
  #111  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:11 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: SoFla
Posts: 2,557
I have one final question and then I'll thank you again for sharing this.
Did or does your position as a minister play into any of this?
Was it more difficult to do because you are a life saver and not a life taker?

Another intriguing facet. Man of God chosen for this.
__________________
http://constitution.org/lrev/rkba_wayment.htm
COTEP#782
  #112  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:35 AM
desmodromic desmodromic is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Manila Philippines aka wild west of asia
Posts: 184
thankyou for sharing your story. I will now think hard on what primary weapon to use, a9mmor a 45.
  #113  
Old 11-22-2016, 03:43 AM
Steve40th Steve40th is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2
Wow, reality is very different than what many perceive. Very happy you are all alive. You did a fantastic job of protecting your family. Hopefully this dirtbag will be in jail till his time is up and no parole is given.
  #114  
Old 11-22-2016, 05:11 AM
Guyfromohio Guyfromohio is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Ohio
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post

Food for thought: Firing a "warning shot" makes you both criminally and civilly liable. You should only shoot when you have made the decision to STOP the threat, and shoot until the threat is eliminated - either by the assailant fleeing the scene completely, or is unable to continue his attack. One other thought: Did you have a spare magazine ready to reload with?

I would encourage you and your wife to get some more training......

Regards,
Andy
Says the expert on the Internet to the guy not held criminally and civilly liable when actually living the experience.
  #115  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:15 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyfromohio View Post
Says the expert on the Internet to the guy not held criminally and civilly liable when actually living the experience.
Ultimately, Andy is right for 90+% of all self-defense situations but each is unique. I appreciate his input and yours. Thanks
  #116  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:23 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanca Busa View Post
I have one final question and then I'll thank you again for sharing this.
Did or does your position as a minister play into any of this?
Was it more difficult to do because you are a life saver and not a life taker?

Another intriguing facet. Man of God chosen for this.
There is no doubt in my mind that God was involved in both the protection of our home and the protection of Nathan... I've openly said that God must have an ultimate purpose for Nathan's life because I tried everything I could to kill him - and considering the hits, the "miraculous" near misses (when the deputy put a pencil through the three holes in his hat - and put the hat on his head, the shot always passed through his head no matter how he wore the hat), and the failed expansion of every single self-defense round - God was watching out for him...

We also realized had he went to my parents house (they live next door) or any of the other other near by neighbors - this story could have ended much differently - so, as a Christian - we take consolation in that God's plans are perfect and his ways are higher than ours.

Did taking someone's life weigh in my mind diffferntly because of being a pastor? Not at all but I'm proud to tell you my record of success at introducing people to Jesus at the altar is much higher than at the end of a gun.
  #117  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:27 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve40th View Post
Wow, reality is very different than what many perceive. Very happy you are all alive. You did a fantastic job of protecting your family. Hopefully this dirtbag will be in jail till his time is up and no parole is given.
That was probably my biggest take-a-way - every situation is fluid and must be handled on the fly but with a prepared mind and game plan for such an event - put the odds of surviving, or at least ensuring the perp was caught - in our favor thank you
  #118  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:32 AM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Another note on this. A few times on this forum I have commented dismissively about "shot placement" and "focusing on the front sight" when it comes to defense shooting.

Because, as Clint said "a man needs to know his limitations" And Plato said "know thyself"

Well, here's ME knowing both myself & my limitations:

I'd probably just point & shoot. Plus not take my eyes off the guy who's trying to kill me.

And I think many of the guys who think that they ARE going to do careful aiming & proper technique are kidding themselves.
I aimed... at least I tried to aim but ultimately, I don't recall the sight picture st all but yet was able to shoot the tire out of a moving vehicle, hit an exposed area of his leg less than 3", another shot to his partially exposed chest (about the shoulder blade size). Walking on broken glass with a minimum of cuts on my feet is still one of the most intriguing parts to me having seen the large amounts of glass I walked over
  #119  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:23 AM
oldman45 oldman45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,249
Sir, I want to sincerely thank you for posting the facts of an event that will traumatize you and your family for life. It is never easy to reflect back on the things that effect one so deeply. Nor can most reading it accurately relate to the event. Many will be arm chair quarterbacks and say what they would have done but then they were not the one being attacked.

Now I am going to try to keep my input short even though I am not a man of few words.

My opinions have been solidly formed by 43 yrs of working with law enforcement and six times total in both professionally and personally where I had to fire my gun. I readily admit to be locked in to the .45acp and in particular, the 1911.

As an expert in crime scene / accident reconstruction and 687 court trials (sounds like a lot but really only about 15 times a year) I have often seen what works and what does not.

I can also accurately say that each incident, no matter how much like another, will be different and may require a different approach.

Without boring all here, I will say I have seen 9mm rounds deflected by many small items just as deer hunters have had large caliber rifle rounds deflected by a small limb. I have seen a lady take 13 rounds to her torso, a couple hitting major organs, be in court 10 days later for the arraignment of her shooter. Police depts have left the 9mm due to ineffectiveness. Some went back to it due to cost of ammo and limited budgets.

I have seen people that had been hit by rounds from almost every caliber gun there is. Not once have I seen someone struck by a .45acp round continue aggression. Even the fmj rounds will break bones. By the Grace of God, I was visiting at my mother's home when a crazed man broke through her back door. I jumped up and he hit me in the face with a board. I fell back grabbing my 1911 and shot him once in the chest. He stumbled backward about three steps and fell. The fight was over.

I shot a Jeep from the front that was being used as a deadly weapon. The .45 round went through the metal grille, the radiator and took out the fan and water pump. It went about 150 feet before the motor died. In the Army I saw .45 fmj hit people in all kinds of places. They fell and their aggression in hand to hand combat was over.

There are reasons for the popularity of the 9mm round and I am not going to address those here but will say only a few can be justified.

As with invasions and calibers, the choice of what to use, when to use, how to use (or not use) is up to the individual holding the gun. Nor am I a believer in warning shots. They do damage somewhere but does not have much effect on a person bent on doing harm.

I will just say that God will give you strength to get past this with time but you will never forget it. As long as God is first and family is second in your life, all will end well.
__________________
Remember, a 9mm round might expand but a .45acp round never shrinks
  #120  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:06 AM
aquabum aquabum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Age: 35
Posts: 610
This story has also re-enforced my belief that a handgun is for fighting to get to your long gun!

In my home, me and my wife are trained on a given plan. That plan is that if I get the heads up on an intruder or someone trying to break in, I grab the handgun first because that is what will be readily available probably in quick fashion. I will go toward the threat and get between it and my children!

My wife is to get on the phone while also getting the long gun. If time allows, we switch firearms and she barricades herself in with the children while I engage the thread with the long gun.

With the alarm system and re-enforced door jambs on all exterior entrances, someone is going to break their legs or shoulder trying to break through our doors. We don't have glass doors or glass around the doors on purpose!

We've been broken into before and have seen how little effort it takes to kick in a standard door with the typical standard lock system and small screws into the door frame. It's VERY easy!

At the very least everyone should put long 4" screws into the strike plates of their exterior doors so that they reach the 2x4 behind the door frame itself. Even better is the retrofit kits that put long metal brackets along the door frame and get screwed into the door 2x4 framing. You're not kicking down that door easily at all.

All of this gives me and my wife time to get ourselves armed to protect our family.

Go over your plan with your spouse and children for all emergencies. My children, even as young as 3-4 years old know what to do in case of fire or other emergency. Have a plan and go make sure you can implement it!
  #121  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:34 AM
ArtsNCrash ArtsNCrash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
I aimed... at least I tried to aim but ultimately, I don't recall the sight picture st all but yet was able to shoot the tire out of a moving vehicle, hit an exposed area of his leg less than 3", another shot to his partially exposed chest (about the shoulder blade size). Walking on broken glass with a minimum of cuts on my feet is still one of the most intriguing parts to me having seen the large amounts of glass I walked over
So this reminds me of a discussion I had many yrs ago with the national head of my Martial Arts group.

"We will train you to be perfect. We will make you punch 100,000 times and then do it again. Our goal is to train you beyond perfection. But once it hits the fan, none of that will work. Your opponent won't be in the right position. Your terrain won't be even. Your lighting will be horrible. You will be scared and unable to think or plan or even understand what is going on. You will still prevail because you have the foundation to win. If you win by hitting your opponent over the head with a chair, that is still Kung Fu!"

This is why we train. We create muscle memory and actions that just happen when needed. We don't have to think. We just do. You did that. The outcome, though not what you may have preferred still shows you were prepared for this.

Honestly, you were wearing nothing but a towel, walking on glass, shooting a pistol that had such a reduced velocity you might as well have been shooting wadcutters.

Wow! You were awesome! Seriously tactical!!!

I'm not stopping at your place without calling first...

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk
  #122  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:44 AM
oldman45 oldman45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,249
For those feeling a rifle is for defense. Keep your handguns at home and carry your rifle.

Way, way, way more are killed each year with handguns than with rifles. Not counting military, most shot with rifles are during some type of accident such as a hunting accident (we have had three here this season already).

A long gun is not as weildy as a handgun. If rifles were so great, law enforcement would carry them as opposed to handguns.

This was of thinking was brought about by the assault weapon craze and the so called "tactical" defense that is making firearm companies stock go way up but it is a falsehood.

Also, a person is more likely to have a confrontation away from their long gun. And how long will it take one to get their long gun.

Now if one is faced with a riot situation with multiple participants, then the long gun is the weapon to have. If I have a large group coming at me, I want that long gun.
__________________
Remember, a 9mm round might expand but a .45acp round never shrinks
  #123  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:03 PM
Johnny handgun's Avatar
Johnny handgun Johnny handgun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: D.M. IA
Age: 58
Posts: 6,553
May God bless and protect you. May you be able to put this btrhind you and feel the freedom to live your life in peace and may you be secure.
__________________
Meet me, Jesus, meet me in the middle of the air, if my wings should fail me, Lord, please meet me with another pair, so I can die easy.
  #124  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:54 PM
facilitator facilitator is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,483
Thank you for taking the time to share your incredible story. So glad you and your family did not get harmed.
  #125  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:15 PM
Ed_Gordon Ed_Gordon is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 677
Thank you - Many things done very well during a crazy stressful situation and important points to consider. In the end you did a great job of defending your family.
__________________
Springfield Armory Milspec & 1911 Loaded, Remington R1, Dan Wesson Heritage, Sig 1911 40 S&W, Ruger LW CMD, Colt LW Commander & Competition Series Government, CZ 1911 A1
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved