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  #76  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:39 PM
Nathan Nathan is offline
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Thanks for sharing your story with us.


You handled the situation with amazing skill. I would hope to do half as well. That round is generally considered quite good. Glad I haven't switched to 9mm as I keep thinking I should.

I like your move to the AR. I'm trying to do the same.....just working on a way to secure it properly, yet with access in my room.

To me, the struggle is being in a towel and having enough ammo. That is where the AR helps. Not hard to have 30-60 rounds on you that way. You are inspiring me to get hot on getting my AR accessible.
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  #77  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:40 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary in TX View Post
***snip***
I do have one question -
Q : Since he was in the process of leaving (in your car which he had stole I believe) was that last shot completely legal? Meaning if you had shot and killed him with a shot to the head would you have been in for a rash of legal problems?

***snip***
You've got to know your state laws and what is and isn't legal in your state. In Kentucky - I have the right to lethal force if I feel my life or the life of another person is in danger. Pretty open and closed in many similar instances.

Here's a breakdown of my shots fired.

Warning shot - he couldn't clearly see me nor I see him so I wanted him to know there was no bluff (1), shot to the leg - at this point the fight can't stop, won't stop, and will only end when someone concedes, is killed, or escapes. I had no where to go (2), three to the chest - I hit the first one - the next two shots were rapid fire and missed - 911 operator only counted one shot fired from this group (5 shots total) - I only had 4 rounds left..

I knew if I continued to play peek-a-boo at the front door the fight wasn't going to end in my favor. I made the decision to walk barefooted over the broken glass to the front door. My plan was to extend out the door and stop the threat at my front door at point blank range. When I leaned out the broken glass of the door (door was still closed / locked) he had retreated back to my car and standing behind the now open drivers door. With the gun pointed at him (and for the first time clearly seeing his face and him seeing mine) he said, "I'm coming back to F**k'n kill you all" - I immediately fired the next round (6 total now) as I felt his intentions were to still harm my family and make good on his word.

Round 6 deflected from the glass and passed through his hat (you can see a round chunk from the bullet passing through the band in one pic in the floor of the car with all of the glass). He immediately got in my car to escape - ending the "fear for my life". the last two shots were fired in an attempt to purposefully miss him but to disable the vehicle or cause enough damage he would be easily spotted.

Round 7 hit the windshield in an attempt to shatter it and make driving difficult. (You can see from the picture I hit high and only busted the top of the glass).

Round 8 hit the front drivers tire. Passed through the tire, into he vehicle, hit he brake pedal and was found on the floor mat.

Pics of car damage uploaded as well.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_4760.JPG   IMG_4546.JPG   IMG_4763.JPG   IMG_4762.JPG   IMG_4764.JPG  
  #78  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:43 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz12 View Post
There are a handfull of fragmenting bullets on the market, why not go with one of those?
I was using a high quality speer gold dot self-defense round. However, like most concealed carry holders - I was using a 3" barrel and ammo designed for 5" service weapons.
 
  #79  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:43 PM
3RidersApproaching 3RidersApproaching is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Yes. Carry what you wish. If you want to carry 40 go for it. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not seeing the science to backup that decision though.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....f-Defense-Ammo
If you can't see that there is a terminal ballistics difference between 9mm and .40S&W, or between 9mm and .45auto, then you're not paying enough attention. You need to consider momentum, as well. And that the human adversary is built completely different than a block of ballistic gelatin. You are likely to need to bust through an assailant's hand/forearm bones, possibly heavy clothing, then sternum and/or ribs and then continue un-deflected for deep penetration, hopefully with some expansion. That's not taking into consideration firing through glass, doors, walls, etc. Larger caliber, heavier-weight bullets (speaking about pistol velocities now) have been shown to do this comparatively well - especially with adequate barrel length.

I like forty because it combines nearly the performance of .45auto with nearly the capacity of 9mm, AND I can shoot it more quickly and easily than I can shoot my other favorite caliber: .45auto - practically as quickly and easily as I can shoot 9mm +P, given the right platform. (The right platform for me being the M&P40, SIG P320 .40S&W, or STI Edge .40S&W.)

I'll certainly take 9mm, if it's all I can get, and be very happy to have it!

But if I have a threat coming my way and I do have my choice, my first pick is the M&P40 in .40S&W with 16 rounds of 180 gr HST on board.

Runners up, in my preference, that are a virtual tie to the M&P40 are the SIG P320 in .40S&W with 15 rounds of 180 gr HST and the STI Edge 2011 .40S&W with 16 rounds of the same 180 gr HST.

These offer the excellent, hard-hitting, well-proven 180 gr premium HST load with nearly the capacity of a 9mm. And they're very soft-shooting with quick follow up capability.

Following those options is the STI Tactical DS 2011 5.0 in .45auto with 13 rounds of 230 gr HST. I also have a Springfield 1911 GI Double Stack John Harrison Custom, which carries 14 rounds of .45auto and is a stellar performer. The Glock 21SF with 14 rounds of the same 230 gr HST follows that choice.

My last "preferred" choice is the Glock 17 9mm with 18 rounds of 124 gr +P HST.

There are, of course, other pistols that I would confidently rely on (including 1911s), but those I listed above comprise the top tier of my preferred pistols for defense use. Obviously, I am a believer in the value of high-capacity combined with heavier caliber bullets, in a platform that provides ease of handling and moderately low recoil.
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Last edited by 3RidersApproaching; 11-20-2016 at 04:12 PM.
  #80  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:46 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanca Busa View Post
First I'll say that was quite a moving real life account. As a man of faith God made sure he had your back that day. It was simply meant to be and meant to be that you were there to do what you did.
Reading your account I'll admit half choked me up and my eyes watered a bit as I sit and stare across my living room at my two kids rooms. Followed wife home and tried to kidnap her.
Again thank God and you for stopping him that day.

A: I'm now thinking about going back to a high capacity pistol like my Sig M11 or Beretta instead of the 9mm Commander I normally carry. Suddenly 10+1 doesn't sound like 'enough'.

B: I read all three pages thinking same as above and was gonna ask it. Can you elaborate a bit more on the rounds you fired at the car? I never really got that clear? You're only in a towel. In one of your posts I think you mention you leaned out the now broken glass of front door and shot at him in your car? Is that correct?
If so did you do this because as he was leaving headed back toward your car he said he was coming back to kill you? And because of that you were like 'no you're not!' and wanted to end him right there to make sure that he didn't make good on that verbal threat later in life....moments, hours, days or whatever time later?

That is the intriguing aspect of your story. Shooting at him from inside your house as he was leaving.


Glad you and your family are safe. Yes there be demons amongst us. Best carry swords to slay those dragons......

A: Any gun is better than no gun. A 20 round XDM at home doesn't do any good when you are at Wal-Mart. During any gun fire- you'll wish you had more - even with a belt-fed Rambo rig - you've got to decide what compromise your willing to make between comfort and protection.

I will pack a LCP .380 with me at times and I do feel very "under-gunned" but the other option was to have no firearm with me.... So I chose deep concealment LCP.

Other times, I have packed my AR with me because I didn't have to worry about concealment and was on my own property.

B: - I tried to address that in the post above...
  #81  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:49 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3RidersApproaching View Post
If you can't see that there is a terminal ballistics difference between 9mm and .40S&W, or between 9mm and .45auto, then you're not paying enough attention.

I like forty because it offers nearly the performance to .45auto and has nearly the capacity of 9mm, plus I can shoot it more quickly and easily than I can shoot .45auto - practically as quickly and easily as 9mm +P, given the right platform. (The right platform for me being the M&P40, SIG P320 .40S&W, or STI Edge .40S&W.)

I'll take 9mm if it's all I can get and be happy to have it.

But if I have a threat coming my way and I do have my choice, my first pick is the M&P40 in .40S&W with 16 rounds of 180 gr HST on board.

Runners up that are a virtual tie to the M&P40 are the SIG P320 in .40S&W with 15 rounds of 180 gr HST on board and the STI Edge .40S&W with 16 rounds of the same 180 gr HST.

These offer an excellent, hard-hitting, well-proven 180 gr premium HST load with nearly the capacity of a 9mm. And they're very soft-shooting with quick follow up capability.

Following those options is the STI Tactical DS 2011 5.0 in .45auto with 13 rounds of 230 gr HST. The Glock 21SF with 14 rounds of the same 230 gr HST follows that choice.

My last choice is the Glock 17 9mm with 18 rounds of 124 gr +P HST.

There are other pistols I would certainly rely on (including 1911s), but those above round out the top tier of my preferred pistols. Obviously, I am a believer in the value of high-capacity combined with heavier caliber bullets, in a platform that provides ease of handling and moderately low recoil.
I packed a .40 for years and for many of the same reasons you do now. The only reason I moved to 9mm was so my wife could shoot it better (she didn't like the .40) and to save an additional 7 ounces of weight of the EMP9 vs EMP40... I think your reasoning is well founded and works well for you - great job on knowing your platform, educating yourself, and making your own decisions. A+
  #82  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:53 PM
3RidersApproaching 3RidersApproaching is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
I packed a .40 for years and for many of the same reasons you do now. The only reason I moved to 9mm was so my wife could shoot it better (she didn't like the .40) and to save an additional 7 ounces of weight of the EMP9 vs EMP40... I think your reasoning is well founded and works well for you - great job on knowing your platform, educating yourself, and making your own decisions. A+
CC.... we are thinking alike! And my wife, as well, needs 9mm as larger calibers are beyond her comfort zone. She's carried a G26 with 10+1 for years. Recently she transitioned to the M&P9 Compact, which she and I both prefer -these days- to the Glock.

I wear shorts and a t-shirt practically every day and when I do go out, I have no problem concealing an M&P40 full size or SIG P320 40 Full Size, so they are my primary carry pistols. Being on the larger/heavier side of CC pistols, of course I am aware that I'm carrying them, but I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I know that in the very unlikely event that I might need to use one, I will be thankful that I made the choice to carry one of these. I occasionally do rotate in the M&P40 Compact (11 rounds) or SIG P320 40 Compact (14 rounds).



And, of course, I realize that some people have circumstances which make carrying a full size pistol either difficult or impossible, so of course I can understand that some people will be forced to carry a smaller pistol like the M&P40 Compact,M&P9 Compact, G26, or even down to a 9mm Shield.
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Last edited by 3RidersApproaching; 11-20-2016 at 04:02 PM.
  #83  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:56 PM
cadconversions cadconversions is offline
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I would also like to add - I'm not looking for 15 minutes of fame and I do really appreciate your feedback and questions. I've only shared this in a hope that someone reading this may be better prepared.

Since posting this story - I have already been contacted by a fellow person from Kentucky who's close friend was just involved in a home invasion in a larger city in our state. She was also able to defend herself and ended the threat better than I was able too.

Hopefully, what my family went through will ensure others are safe. I also shared this information on my Facebook page. Several of my friends (many of them had no idea) have already received their concealed carry license and many more are going for theirs.

That's the goal - teach people it can happen and for them to be better prepared if it does.

Link to Facebook story if anyone wants to share through social media...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/kevin...54740474447299
  #84  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:01 PM
zogger zogger is offline
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Thanks for sharing this with us. Definitely a terrifying situation.

As you said "you go to know your state laws". Here in NY, once the guy had retreated away from your front door, you would not be allowed to shoot at him anymore...even with his verbal threats against you and your family. You could have been charged and then depending upon the judge and the jury, you might have been convicted of something like assault.

Also here in NY, if you and your wife had a path to retreat, you would have been expected to do that instead of shooting. Lastly, unless he was armed (I did not see you mentioned if he was armed), you would not be allowed to use deadly force at all.

Crazy laws here in NY. I am glad this did not happen to you here.

My best to you and your wife to be able to get back to some sort of normal life.
  #85  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:03 PM
Grizz12 Grizz12 is offline
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Bullet performance out of a shorter barrel is something I didnt consider. Guess I figured if it was intended for SD use in a handgun than any length would be ok.

I cant imagine a bgg drop in performance going from 5" to 4.25" but dropping down to a 3" is something to think about
  #86  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:04 PM
3RidersApproaching 3RidersApproaching is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
I would also like to add - I'm not looking for 15 minutes of fame and I do really appreciate your feedback and questions. I've only shared this in a hope that someone reading this may be better prepared.

Since posting this story - I have already been contacted by a fellow person from Kentucky who's close friend was just involved in a home invasion in a larger city in our state. She was also able to defend herself and ended the threat better than I was able too.

Hopefully, what my family went through will ensure others are safe. I also shared this information on my Facebook page. Several of my friends (many of them had no idea) have already received their concealed carry license and many more are going for theirs.

That's the goal - teach people it can happen and for them to be better prepared if it does.

Link to Facebook story if anyone wants to share through social media...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/kevin...54740474447299
Your capable response to the horrific situation and excellent follow-through up to and including sharing the story of your experience is quite commendable. The Lord has blessed you and your family, indeed. And may he continue to do so.
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  #87  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:26 PM
Gary in TX Gary in TX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
You've got to know your state laws and what is and isn't legal in your state. In Kentucky - I have the right to lethal force if I feel my life or the life of another person is in danger. Pretty open and closed in many similar instances.

Here's a breakdown of my shots fired.

....
Cool, thanks for the break down.

My comment was partially just to comment on how weird it is that the States vary so widely from each other.
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  #88  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:44 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
I was using a high quality speer gold dot self-defense round. However, like most concealed carry holders - I was using a 3" barrel and ammo designed for 5" service weapons.
Out of a 3.5" barrel, the 124gn Gold Dot is an average 9mm performer at best- as it is out of a 4 or 5" pipe... I seriously doubt the lack of 1/2" of barrel had anything to do with the ballistic failures... its just the nature of the bullet; they do crazy and unpredictable things. Something small is the difference between dying and living. You simply weren't meant to kill that day....
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  #89  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:50 PM
OctopusHighball OctopusHighball is offline
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I want to thank you for sharing your story. I am glad you and your family are currently well, and great job to your wife on her first group with an AR! I have learned some things as a result of your story, namely that I need to find a secure yet accessible option for a rifle in my room. There are, um, multiple firearm options currently in my room, but all are pistol flavored.
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  #90  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:23 PM
Howe.45ACP Howe.45ACP is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zogger View Post
Thanks for sharing this with us. Definitely a terrifying situation.

As you said "you go to know your state laws". Here in NY, once the guy had retreated away from your front door, you would not be allowed to shoot at him anymore...even with his verbal threats against you and your family. You could have been charged and then depending upon the judge and the jury, you might have been convicted of something like assault.

Also here in NY, if you and your wife had a path to retreat, you would have been expected to do that instead of shooting. Lastly, unless he was armed (I did not see you mentioned if he was armed), you would not be allowed to use deadly force at all.

Crazy laws here in NY. I am glad this did not happen to you here.

My best to you and your wife to be able to get back to some sort of normal life.

I guess you missed the first post where the perp was armed with a SWORD.
  #91  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:26 PM
zogger zogger is offline
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Originally Posted by Howe.45ACP View Post
I guess you missed the first post where the perp was armed with a SWORD.
Yup. I missed that. However, as I said, here in NY once the attacker retreated, you would not have had the right to shoot any more. Stupid NY!
  #92  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:29 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howe.45ACP View Post
I guess you missed the first post where the perp was armed with a SWORD.
True.... however, at least the last 2 shots were fired when the BG was in the vehicle, attempting to flee... not a critical issue in the OPs State, or many others- but a very important distinction in more restrictive juristictions.
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  #93  
Old 11-20-2016, 06:04 PM
Kosh75287 Kosh75287 is offline
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Quote:
Killing a human is the most life changing moment you may ever have.
Nathan Ewing vitiated any claim to humanity he ever had, when he decided it was a good idea to invade someone's home.
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  #94  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:08 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadconversions View Post
You've got to know your state laws and what is and isn't legal in your state. In Kentucky - I have the right to lethal force if I feel my life or the life of another person is in danger. Pretty open and closed in many similar instances.

Here's a breakdown of my shots fired.

Warning shot - he couldn't clearly see me nor I see him so I wanted him to know there was no bluff (1), shot to the leg - at this point the fight can't stop, won't stop, and will only end when someone concedes, is killed, or escapes. I had no where to go (2), three to the chest - I hit the first one - the next two shots were rapid fire and missed - 911 operator only counted one shot fired from this group (5 shots total) - I only had 4 rounds left..

I knew if I continued to play peek-a-boo at the front door the fight wasn't going to end in my favor. I made the decision to walk barefooted over the broken glass to the front door. My plan was to extend out the door and stop the threat at my front door at point blank range. When I leaned out the broken glass of the door (door was still closed / locked) he had retreated back to my car and standing behind the now open drivers door. With the gun pointed at him (and for the first time clearly seeing his face and him seeing mine) he said, "I'm coming back to F**k'n kill you all" - I immediately fired the next round (6 total now) as I felt his intentions were to still harm my family and make good on his word.

Round 6 deflected from the glass and passed through his hat (you can see a round chunk from the bullet passing through the band in one pic in the floor of the car with all of the glass). He immediately got in my car to escape - ending the "fear for my life". the last two shots were fired in an attempt to purposefully miss him but to disable the vehicle or cause enough damage he would be easily spotted.

Round 7 hit the windshield in an attempt to shatter it and make driving difficult. (You can see from the picture I hit high and only busted the top of the glass).

Round 8 hit the front drivers tire. Passed through the tire, into he vehicle, hit he brake pedal and was found on the floor mat.

Pics of car damage uploaded as well.

Thank you for the further explanation. The bolded above does bring one more question though. How tall is this guy?
If he was standing behind your open car door and your round went thru the door glass how'd it hit his hat? Did it pass thru and deflect straight up toward his head or something? Your house lower than parked car up in driveway?


Also to this point you really haven't shared how your hits affected him?
One shot in the leg and another passed straight thru his torso area?
Where in the leg did you hit him?
He drove off in your debilitated car and was found 4 minutes later.
Did he nearly die or was he still full of piss and vinegar when the cops got him?
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  #95  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:43 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Just curious---------------- a SWORD? What kind of sword?

Foil, Katana, Broadsword, Machete?
  #96  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:10 PM
Phaedrus/69 Phaedrus/69 is offline
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Thanks for sharing your story. It had to have been a harrowing experience and I'm glad you escaped without physical injury. I hope that your psychological and spiritual injuries heal with time.
  #97  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:11 PM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is offline
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Thank you for sharing your story. It does instil many thoughts in me about the security of my wife and I, as I believe you intended. Thanks again for that.

I live in California, more specifically, I live in Los Angeles county. California has a lot of limitations on firearms but has not taken away our right to use deadly force to defend our lives. While I'm hoping the odds our in my favor that I make it to my natural end without going through an experience like yours, your words are a reminder to be as prepared.
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  #98  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:14 PM
bumperm bumperm is offline
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Thank you for protecting your family, and sharing your story.

I think it brings home a lesson. When deciding to be responsible for your and your family's safety by arming yourself, CCW, home defense weapon, whatever, it's important to "sit down with yourself" and make that decision in your mind - "Am I willing to take someone's life to that end"? Delaying the decision to, "if and when it's ever necessary" can turn things badly, as any delay may potentially shift advantage to the bad guy. I'm thinking you solidly arrived at the decision to use deadly force during the fight. All well that end's well, as they say . . . and good!

Long ago (1971), an Oakland PD academy instructor asked if everyone in the class had made the decision they would kill someone if need be, that the time for thinking it through was right then, as there would likely be no time on the street for the luxury of deliberation as any hesitation could cost us or some other innocent their lives. I think most of us had long before thought it through, I know I had, still it was recognized as a potential impediment to quick and decisive decision making and it was acknowledged we needed to answer, validate, and compartmentalize that decision for ourselves and ahead of time.
  #99  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:03 AM
aquabum aquabum is offline
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Man, this brought up some real life memories in our own case. Our house was broken into while we were not home. But my wife was 5 minutes from walking in on the perp. Neighbor saw him break in and called the cops. Luckily they wrestled him on our bedroom floor and caught him.

But having your home and that safety violated is like no other feeling in the world. I had to try and tell my then 5 year old that the bad man was not going to come back and steal her stuffed animals!!! As a father, it brought tears to my eyes to have to tell my young child about bad people and that Daddy will do everything he can do to keep them safe.

Now we live in a different town and home. But we can no longer live in a house without a security system, camera system, and a strategic plan if our home is broken into again!

Thank you for your story and I have shared it. Because I still have people around me that live life in a fairy tale that think that evil will never find them.
  #100  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:31 AM
Andy Andy is offline
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Glad you are safe and through the court case, but your journey is not over. You and your wife must plan to be at every parole board hearing, and when - not If- he gets out you-and your wife will be living in high yellow awareness, and should be armed at all times.

Food for thought: Firing a "warning shot" makes you both criminally and civilly liable. You should only shoot when you have made the decision to STOP the threat, and shoot until the threat is eliminated - either by the assailant fleeing the scene completely, or is unable to continue his attack. One other thought: Did you have a spare magazine ready to reload with?

I would encourage you and your wife to get some more training. Sounds like you have had some from your thought processes described during the engagement re: weapon manipulation/marksmanship, but your tactics... well, no battle plan survives the first minute of the engagement. One then has to draw from their playbook. If you haven't one, then you have to rely on Lady Luck. Fortunately, she smiled on you that day.

I would suggest you and your wife take a vacation and got to Gunsite for their 250.

Congratulations on surviving your baptism by fire. Welcome to the brutal underbelly of world that few people outside of law enforcement see, but only read about and quickly forget, thinking it only happens to "other people". Those that see it up close and personal never forget, and can only prepare for the next incident, praying it never comes.

Always be courteous in your dealings with others that you meet in the course of your daily comings and goings, but always have a plan to kill them, if need be.

God keep you and yours safe.

Regards,
Andy
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"Generally, to make any particular shot, the most difficult distance to master is that between one's ears." - AA
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