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  #101  
Old 11-28-2016, 05:00 AM
Joe O Joe O is offline
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/\/\ + big guy, big bullets. Shoot till threat has stopped.
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  #102  
Old 11-28-2016, 06:51 AM
oldman45 oldman45 is offline
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In my employment, I have saw many things when it comes to shootings.

One that sticks out in my mind was when a guy called "Big Boy" on the streets. I actually personally knew him and the other party that was called "preacher" because he was a part time preacher in the Black community.

Preacher was a very small guy and may have weighed about 140. Big Boy was likely 6'3" and well over 300 pounds.

Long story, short verse. Preacher got drunk. Big boy was doing Preachers wife a favor by taking her to the grocery store. As he was unloading her groceries, Preacher started some crap by accusing him of messing with his wife. Preacher got a double barrel shotgun and shot Big Boy twice, in the chest, at less than 15 feet. Big Boy was still able to walk up the porch and choke Preacher into unconsciousmess before falling dead. Preacher went to prison for 40 yrs and died there about 10 yrs later from old age (he was over 60 when the incident took place.

To this day, I will always believe that Big Boy would have fell instantly had he been hit with a .45acp round. I have a video I wish I could post here to show the shock value in a torso compared to other calibers. In my work, I have watched autopsies where the medical examiner said the shock wave from .45acp rounds stopped the person's heart.
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  #103  
Old 12-10-2016, 01:36 PM
"colt45acp" "colt45acp" is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Just think of the advantages of having a larger target......

Undoubtedly it must be some sort of advantage, but jokes apart I've already wondered about the effectiveness of shooting agains somebody really fat and solidly built.

....If you hit a critical organ (e.g., heart/center of mass), the size of the assailant probably won't make that much difference.


In case of SD the attack comes from very close quarters, and supposing that one has got enough time to point his gun on time, in those few seconds is almost impossible to remain cold and be able to think "where" to aim.
IMHO.
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  #104  
Old 12-10-2016, 02:12 PM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "colt45acp" View Post
[/B]

In case of SD the attack comes from very close quarters, and supposing that one has got enough time to point his gun on time, in those few seconds is almost impossible to remain cold and be able to think "where" to aim.
IMHO.
That's true, regardless of the attacker's size.

The question here is, does size matter in terms of bullet penetration?
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  #105  
Old 12-10-2016, 03:18 PM
NetDoc NetDoc is offline
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People tell me that I'm my own worst enemy, but I doubt I'll physically attack me at any point. There are a few guys bigger, but they know I Scuba and can easily hide bodies.
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  #106  
Old 12-29-2016, 02:41 PM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "colt45acp" View Post
[/B]

In case of SD the attack comes from very close quarters, and supposing that one has got enough time to point his gun on time, in those few seconds is almost impossible to remain cold and be able to think "where" to aim.
IMHO.
It can be done, if you train for that. Not only by shooting at targets, but by constantly preparing yourself mentally. That's the essence of shooting dangerous game when it attacks, you have only seconds, and non-CNS hits get you killed: exactly like in the Big Boy story above, a big dangerous animal hit in the chest WILL kill you long before dying.

There is no other recipe... Aim and hit, or get killed. Keeps life interesting
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  #107  
Old 12-29-2016, 03:28 PM
Joshua M. Smith Joshua M. Smith is offline
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You realize the 45acp was designed after a cartridge used to drop running beeves and horses, right?

Josh
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  #108  
Old 12-29-2016, 03:46 PM
Superpumper Superpumper is offline
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Center of mass

Center of mass... Any person can be tougher to take down than expected depending on their levels of motivation, adrenaline fueled or artificially fueled by intoxicants.

But physiology is pretty darn absolute. From balls to head.
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  #109  
Old 12-29-2016, 04:31 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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I imagine the FBI penetration standard would account for the possibility of having to engage a morbidly obese or very muscular attacker. The former is simply a reality in a first world country, and the latter is presumably not all that uncommon when you're dealing with career criminals who have been fighting their entire lives.

Mythbusters' testing of this found that neither huge amounts of fat nor muscle could prevent a .45 FMJ from penetrating to the vital organs, although most of us probably don't carry FMJ. Still, I'm thinking that the common advice of "Shoot center mass until the threat stops" remains applicable. Most aggressors are probably larger than average anyway, and modern service caliber loads seem to have been doing a perfectly good job of zipping through that excess tissue. After all it seems like there'd be some sort of outcry if we had an epidemic of landwhales and bodybuilders soaking up round after round.

Last edited by Citruslime45; 12-29-2016 at 04:42 PM.
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  #110  
Old 12-30-2016, 10:11 AM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superpumper View Post
Center of mass... Any person can be tougher to take down than expected depending on their levels of motivation, adrenaline fueled or artificially fueled by intoxicants.

But physiology is pretty darn absolute. From balls to head.
Yep, physiology rules. Headshots are man-stoppers. Pretty much anything-stoppers...

The headshot is also a great caliber-equalizer...

Last edited by Philip A.; 12-30-2016 at 10:13 AM.
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  #111  
Old 01-01-2017, 05:28 PM
p320 p320 is offline
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You'll want something called 357 magnum

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  #112  
Old 01-03-2017, 07:07 PM
OlShakyFinger OlShakyFinger is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green papaya View Post
since the M1911 only has 7 rd magazine for most standard sized pistols, whats the best way to take down an extra big bad guy? some guys are almost the size of a Grizzly bear

does a persons overall size have an effect on how hard it might be to take them down, I heard some ex pro football player sized guys can take several hits and keep on comming.

I remember seeing some video footage of a traffic stop and the big bad guy was able to keep fighting even though he had been hit numerous times.
My Unkle was a police officer in Detroit, Michigan. During a drug raid on a known gang drug house, a 300 lb. black biker hopped up on PCP came busting out the door firing a Uzi. The 10 or so officers present put 20 some rounds of 9mm and 45acp plus 6 rounds of 12 gauge into him before he dropped dead with his hands around the officer next to my Unkle. Never under estimate a fow no matter what the sercumstance, especially when they mean to try to kill you. Drugs can make people due some strange things.

Last edited by OlShakyFinger; 01-04-2017 at 11:16 AM.
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  #113  
Old 01-03-2017, 07:38 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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This post really brings back mamarys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlShakyFinger View Post
My Unkle was a police officer in Detroit, Michigan. During a drug raid on a known gang drug house a 300 lb. black biker hopped up on PCP come busting out the door firing a Ussie. The 10 or so officers percent put 20 some rounds of 9mm and 45acp plus 6 rounds of 12 gauge into him before he dropped dead with his hands around the officer next to my Unkle. Never under estimate a fow no matter what the sercumstance, especially when they mean to try to kill you. Drugs can make people due some strange things.
I sure wish that I still had my Ussie!
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  #114  
Old 01-04-2017, 06:34 PM
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Well, at least "gauge" was spelled rite.
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  #115  
Old 01-04-2017, 07:31 PM
Kosh75287 Kosh75287 is offline
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Quote:
Well, at least "gauge" was spelled rite.
...spelled right.

Wow. It's like he didn't overlook a single opportunity to misspell something....
<shaking head>

Okay, anyway, for people who are losing sleep over this, find a human anatomy book and locate the pubic symphysis. If 2 to the chest and 1 to the head haven't felled your opponent, aim for the pubic symphysis (estimate midway between navel and the bottom of the scrotum).

If you hit it, the front connection holding the 2 pelvic bones together will be disrupted. A person so affected can no longer stand.
If you miss low, the genitalia will take a hit, interrupting a terrifically rich blood supply and nerve network. If pain doesn't take out the aggressor, exsanguination very well might.
If you miss high, the sacrum will take a hit, and the sacro-illiac joint may come apart.
If you miss left or right, the projectile will likely impact the illium or illiac crest, with much the same effect as hitting the sacrum.
In the unlikely event that the pelvis is not hit, and the projectile passes through a pelvic inlet, another very rich blood supply and nerve network is likely trashed.

Naturally, the heavier the impact delivered to the area, the more likely one is to take their aggressor of their feet. Hitting someone in the pelvis with a .380 probably will not make the fall as if hit by a .45. So the corollary to the first rule of gun fighting ("Have a gun.") is "Have ENOUGH gun."
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  #116  
Old 01-04-2017, 08:21 PM
drail drail is offline
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Knee caps. Walk away.
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  #117  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:42 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Big boy and Preacher shooting....

Quote:
To this day, I will always believe that Big Boy would have fell instantly had he been hit with a .45acp round.
There is no guarantee any handgun round, including the .45acp, will cause the victim to "fall to the ground instantly" after one shot is fired....!

I recently read this article about a Skokie, Illinois, LEO that got into a gunfight with a bank robber. The LEO, using his Glock 21 .45, hit the suspect 14 times, 6 shots that should have been in lethal areas..."any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…." The bank robber was still able to return fire and was finally killed by a headshot...... An autopsy showed there were no drugs in the victim!

You can read the article for yourself and decide if one shot with a .45 will stop a bad guy.....

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-05-2017 at 06:45 AM.
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  #118  
Old 01-05-2017, 07:16 AM
NetDoc NetDoc is offline
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There will always be exceptions.
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  #119  
Old 01-05-2017, 09:32 AM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
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I had a good friend who was a Medical Examiner in Virginia. He used to tell of a man who was shot through the heart with a 12 gauge shotgun -- his heart was destroyed.

The man walked a block after being shot, sat down on his front step and died.
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  #120  
Old 01-05-2017, 09:33 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I recently read this article about a Skokie, Illinois, LEO that got into a gunfight with a bank robber. The LEO, using his Glock 21 .45, hit the suspect 14 times, 6 shots that should have been in lethal areas..."any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…." The bank robber was still able to return fire and was finally killed by a headshot...... An autopsy showed there were no drugs in the victim!

You can read the article for yourself and decide if one shot with a .45 will stop a bad guy.....

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/
While I agree that dependingnon a "one shot stop" is foolish and unrealistic, the case you cite clearly demonstrates that people may take time to die... with the exception of the heart and MULTIPLE head shots, any one of those injuries is fundementally survivable.

I'd also submit that IF the heart shot destroyed the organ, the "fatal" head shots were administered within one or 2 seconds, at the absolute outside, of the head shots- or that the suspect was already incapacitated when they were fired.

Everone agrees that shot placement is King... however, if you're not hitting quarters the first time, every time, under every set of stressors, at all distances- you can't depend on "shot placement" to affect incapacitation any more than you can depend on caliber, bullet design, velocity, or energy.

The difference between a survivable or at least functional wound and a catastrophic, incapacitating one can often be mesured in millimeters. Hit the heart or aorta, they're out in a few seconds. Miss, and they stay in the fight.
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  #121  
Old 01-05-2017, 01:04 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Shot placement....

Quote:
Everone agrees that shot placement is King... however, if you're not hitting quarters the first time, every time, under every set of stressors, at all distances- you can't depend on "shot placement" to affect incapacitation any more than you can depend on caliber, bullet design, velocity, or energy.
Good shot placement with a reasonably powerful handgun that disrupts the central nervous system has the best chance of stopping the aggressor quickly.

I think it is interesting to note from the Skokie, IL, LEO shoot out, that the head shot stopped the fight..... The Leo's .45 rounds may have clipped the heart and destroyed parts of the lung and liver, but the perp kept fighting....until he was shot in the head.

I similar incident happened in Miami a few years back....the perp received several hits but was using a tree as cover. Several officers were shot, but the bad guy picked his head up too high, and an officer using the cover of his vehicle about 15 yds. away made a head shot that appeared to be through a fork in the trunk of the tree......the fight was over.......
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  #122  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:19 PM
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Butthead Butthead is offline
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Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
...spelled right.
Um, you did see the "smiley," rite?

Another good one seen today was to take the "flair" out of a reloaded cartridge. What, did the wrestler Ric Flair reload it?

Last edited by Butthead; 01-05-2017 at 06:23 PM.
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  #123  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:36 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Good shot placement with a reasonably powerful handgun that disrupts the central nervous system has the best chance of stopping the aggressor quickly.

I think it is interesting to note from the Skokie, IL, LEO shoot out, that the head shot stopped the fight..... The Leo's .45 rounds may have clipped the heart and destroyed parts of the lung and liver, but the perp kept fighting....until he was shot in the head.

I similar incident happened in Miami a few years back....the perp received several hits but was using a tree as cover. Several officers were shot, but the bad guy picked his head up too high, and an officer using the cover of his vehicle about 15 yds. away made a head shot that appeared to be through a fork in the trunk of the tree......the fight was over.......
Agree that a solid CNS hit is the best figh stopper....

The linked article indicated (and it may just be my mis interpetation of what was reported) that the heart was HIT, not nicked or clipped... IF that was in fact the case, the fight was essentially over- destroy the heart, and you have between 0 and 6 seconds of being physically consiousness left; the latter amount of time only in the most extreme circumstances. Simply punch a hole in it, and you may have more time, though still mesured in seconds...

The liver, lung, and kindey hits are far from incapacitating, and very likely survivable with quick, quality medical care.

What the article (and most like it) DIDN'T say was what specific damage each bullet caused, what the wound tracks were like, did the rounds expand...? Without detailed information, its only an interesting anecdotal story....
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  #124  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:52 PM
jlpskydive jlpskydive is online now
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Originally Posted by NetDoc View Post
People tell me that I'm my own worst enemy, but I doubt I'll physically attack me at any point. There are a few guys bigger, but they know I Scuba and can easily hide bodies.
The school buss sized groupers at the "Spiegel Grove" under the platform at 99 feet is a good start. Those bastards will eat anything... So I've heard.... Asking for a friend back in the day..... LOL
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  #125  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:53 PM
t6pilot t6pilot is online now
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Some years ago a Oklahoma lawman was able to stop a attack by a giant on meth, with shots to the knee, I believe the assailant had been hit multiple times in torso with no effect even though he later died from these wounds
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