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  #51  
Old 05-30-2016, 03:29 PM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green papaya View Post
since the M1911 only has 7 rd magazine for most standard sized pistols, whats the best way to take down an extra big bad guy? some guys are almost the size of a Grizzly bear

does a persons overall size have an effect on how hard it might be to take them down, I heard some ex pro football player sized guys can take several hits and keep on comming.

I remember seeing some video footage of a traffic stop and the big bad guy was able to keep fighting even though he had been hit numerous times.
Carry an 8-round magazine with one up the spout. Shoot him 9 times, center of mass or a bit higher. Reload and repeat.
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  #52  
Old 05-30-2016, 05:36 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Originally Posted by Kodadek View Post
There's a prevailing and Hollywoodesque misperception that big guys go down harder...most of the burly "tough guy" types I've met get by on using their size to intimidate others and they're generally all hat and no cattle.
There's the Hollywood myth of the big, burly tough guy who causes you to break all the bones in your hand when you punch him in the face, and then there's also the natural intimidation factor that comes from encountering someone who's a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than you. Bullets don't care either way; they're not intimidated by the target's size and still work the same going through living tissue. Consider the fact that a little 5' 4" shrimp like "Baby Face" Nelson managed to resist nine hits from .45ACP rounds long enough to kill one of the cops who shot him and still drive away from the gun battle. Also consider that stories exist of big guys getting decked by a single .22LR round like in the incident described earlier. Humans are extraordinarily complex creatures, and what medicine works on one person may not work on the next. Anyone who assumes that a large person will be harder to take down than a smaller one by sheer virtue of their size obviously knows little about the subject. Adrenaline/endorphin release, narcotics, and a person's mindset are much greater factors than simply how much fat or muscle a guy has on him. So stop worrying about whether you have "enough gun" to take on a big or fat bad guy and concentrate on your ability to make fast, accurate hits under stress.
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Last edited by dsk; 05-30-2016 at 05:44 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2016, 06:03 PM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
There's the Hollywood myth of the big, burly tough guy who causes you to break all the bones in your hand when you punch him in the face, and then there's also the natural intimidation factor that comes from encountering someone who's a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than you. Bullets don't care either way; they're not intimidated by the target's size and still work the same going through living tissue. Consider the fact that a little 5' 4" shrimp like "Baby Face" Nelson managed to resist nine hits from .45ACP rounds long enough to kill one of the cops who shot him and still drive away from the gun battle. Also consider that stories exist of big guys getting decked by a single .22LR round like in the incident described earlier. Humans are extraordinarily complex creatures, and what medicine works on one person may not work on the next. Anyone who assumes that a large person will be harder to take down than a smaller one by sheer virtue of their size obviously knows little about the subject. Adrenaline/endorphin release, narcotics, and a person's mindset are much greater factors than simply how much fat or muscle a guy has on him. So stop worrying about whether you have "enough gun" to take on a big or fat bad guy and concentrate on your ability to make fast, accurate hits under stress.
Exactly, I haven't picked a fight in many a year or been in one but I always found that the big tubby bullies were some of the ones that went down the fastest just because they were used to winning every fight before it began via intimidation. These days I avoid conflict but I have a brother-in-law that to be charitable is "beefy" and whenever he's feeling froggy he suggests that he's going to take me on and the minute I stand up and say, "Okay, let's go," he deflates like a ball left within ten feet of Tom Brady. His whole family is like that and whenever we have a mixed gathering with both families they inevitably try to posture and engage in the human monkey dance and every single time you stand up to them they scurry off because the lot of them are used to winning via intimidation and you learn pretty quick that the only thing these guys have ever fought is to get to the head of the line at The Country Buffet. This is a great example of people playing off on the myth of being tough versus the reality.
A pistol is a great equalizer if you're not into any sort of hands on self-defense and even if you are. I'm just getting back into martial arts, I've wrestled, I practice multiple times a week with a karambit, and I do strength and endurance training for 1-2 hours a day six days a week and that said I figure 15 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense plus one in the pipe and a spare mag on my person is a pretty damn better force multiplier than a blade or my bare mitts against any opponent big or small.

Edit: I just want to point out that what I mean by this post that by letting the arbitrary and our preconceived notions sway us we can lose a battle before we even attempt to strike or return the first blow. Mindset is often forgotten and it degrades into things like training scars: you know, firing twice, immediately pulling your weapon back into the low ready, and just assuming that the fight will be over after two clean rounds versus checking your work through your sights) or the notion that just because an opponent is "big" that he is going to take more work to bring down. At this moment you have already lost the fight and failed yourself.
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Last edited by Kodadek; 05-30-2016 at 08:46 PM.
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:27 AM
walks with gun walks with gun is offline
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When hunting, we usually consider the bigger the game, the bigger the gun. Carry the most powerful handgun you can handle and carry. And be sure to step back if they fall forward, you wouldn't want to get crushed.
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:57 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walks with gun View Post
When hunting, we usually consider the bigger the game, the bigger the gun. Carry the most powerful handgun you can handle and carry. And be sure to step back if they fall forward, you wouldn't want to get crushed.
A) There's a huge difference between a buck versus a bull moose and a 170 pound man and a 320 pound fatass.
B) Fat is not particularly dense, nowhere near as dense as say muscle, so the idea that a bullet is going to have a harder time going through an inch of extra fat is a bit ridiculous and there's certainly no extra chi keeping a tubby man afloat versus a skinny guy. A drug user is liable to go down a lot harder than a fat man and even then there's no magical "stopping" power from any popular handgun round despite the delusions of some folks who believe everything they read on the interweb from the ballisticians at Youtube and Google Universities say.

This is literally a case of people overthinking things on a very high level and getting their heads too wrapped up in What If...you simply cannot think around and prepare for every contingency and thus rigid or hard thinking can lead to dogma and rigid dogmatism leaves very little room for fluidity.
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  #56  
Old 06-03-2016, 07:32 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Defense against an obese or big adversary.....

I have seen and dealt with big adversaries...... a tall, muscular, but heavy opponent is much harder to deal with in a hand to hand situation, unless you also match his height and weight. I have seen obese non muscular guys, and obese muscular guys......the latter is more formidable due to greater strength...... There are reasons why NFL lineman are big and sometimes fat like "the Fridge" Perry.....underneath the adipose tissue is some dense muscle!

The best defense against an obese or big adversary is to not engage in hand to hand combat.....! If it is a true self defense situation, there is no need to bruise your knuckles....just shoot to kill! However, having enough gun is also important, so using a small .380 is much more difficult to shoot accurately and quickly than a mid size larger caliber weapon. A head shot that disrupts the central nervous system is ideal.....and will usually stop the opponent in his tracks....no matter how large they are!
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  #57  
Old 06-03-2016, 01:18 PM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
The best defense against an obese or big adversary is to not engage in hand to hand combat.
That's wisdom!
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  #58  
Old 06-06-2016, 08:44 PM
The Collector The Collector is offline
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Take this humble advice from someone that has seen the elephant in real world applications/operations. At close range/arms reach, two to the hip girdle and zipper up as you gain distance and aim for upper chest. If still standing, hit the fuse box (sights on chin to enter between mouth and nose) Its a straight path to the medula.

If already at distance, 5 yds or more, hit upper chest with a minimum of 4-5. Followed by one to the fuse box if those don't do the job, which is very unlikely, especially with a .45. He will be begin loss of function pretty quickly, choking on his own blood (very common) The two shots and assess methodology is for fools who play Russian roulette with their life.

Shoot lots & Be safe!

Last edited by The Collector; 06-06-2016 at 09:19 PM.
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  #59  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:37 PM
The Collector The Collector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
There's the Hollywood myth of the big, burly tough guy who causes you to break all the bones in your hand when you punch him in the face, and then there's also the natural intimidation factor that comes from encountering someone who's a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than you. Bullets don't care either way; they're not intimidated by the target's size and still work the same going through living tissue. Consider the fact that a little 5' 4" shrimp like "Baby Face" Nelson managed to resist nine hits from .45ACP rounds long enough to kill one of the cops who shot him and still drive away from the gun battle. Also consider that stories exist of big guys getting decked by a single .22LR round like in the incident described earlier. Humans are extraordinarily complex creatures, and what medicine works on one person may not work on the next. Anyone who assumes that a large person will be harder to take down than a smaller one by sheer virtue of their size obviously knows little about the subject. Adrenaline/endorphin release, narcotics, and a person's mindset are much greater factors than simply how much fat or muscle a guy has on him. So stop worrying about whether you have "enough gun" to take on a big or fat bad guy and concentrate on your ability to make fast, accurate hits under stress.
Exactly! Can't disagree with this one!
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  #60  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:56 PM
lwhittern lwhittern is offline
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Modern Hollowpoints are your friend!

I carry modern hollow-points in 9mm and 45 ACP and call it a day. There are some excellent YouTube videos of different bullets being shot into calibrated gelatin. You can learn a wealth of information by watching those videos.
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  #61  
Old 06-06-2016, 11:55 PM
Andyk Andyk is offline
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A friends daughter is a cop in Tampa I think. She got into a gun fight with 3 drug dealers (Jamicans I think) armed with a .45 cal Glock. The largest of them, a very beafy thick type took one to the chest and kept coming and firing at her. She took him out with one to the head. She also killed a second and the third gave up. She was shot in the shooting hand right off the bat so did all this with her weak hand as well as reloading. She took 12 shots. Several to her equipment, radio, belt, vest, but her body took I think 7 shots. One under the vest into her shoulder, her hand, several in the leg and some glancing hits. She survived and is still a cop. Got all kinds of awards all the way up to presidential. Forgot to mention she was protecting two kids in a car at the time, this took place in a garage.

While the article is not exactly as her dad relayed to me, it's close and a good read.


http://www.policemag.com/channel/wom...ots-fired.aspx
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  #62  
Old 06-07-2016, 05:24 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Friend's daughter is a cop in Orange County, FL (Orlando area)

The shoot out took place in Pine Hills, FL. I worked Pine Hills when I was a Deputy for Orange County Sheriff's office, and the nickname for the area was "Crime Hills." When I worked the 12 hour night shift, I had to draw my weapon every night....mainly because we received a high volume of silent alarm burglaries. When investigating a silent alarm burglary, our protocol was to respond without lights or sirens, park a good distance away from the crime scene, and approach with guns drawn at the low ready. Fortunately, I never had to shoot anyone....!

The female officer showed outstanding determination to "stay in the fight" and win...... she deserves every award she was presented, but her greatest reward was saving her own life...!
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  #63  
Old 06-07-2016, 10:27 AM
Gary in TX Gary in TX is offline
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I've worked in EMS for 16 years and that's provided me the opportunity to see a multitude of patients with gunshot wounds.

The patient being extremely obese honestly doesn't matter much just so long as it has good shot placement and disrupts the central nervous system or the pump (heart).

On upper torso hits in the midline on extremely obese patients even if they had gynecomastia there's not enough fat up there to keep the bullet from traveling (unless the shooter is purposely using fragmenting bullets or birdshot that will stop after only go 4-6 inches).

On hits that first pass through the upper arm before proceeding on to the torso or to the abdomen that could a different story.

Just use modern defensive ammo that penetrates to that meets FBI ammunition testing protocol and get good shot placement.

Even on less than perfect shot placement that goes through the shoulder or the abdomen I've never had a patient that did anything other than cry out when we applied direct pressure and ask for pain meds. The ones that continue to fight even though being shot to pieces are apparently rare.
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  #64  
Old 06-07-2016, 11:09 AM
Minorcan Minorcan is offline
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I have a very well proven philosophy in situations like this.

"More Lard needs more Lead, apply liberally until Dead."

Do this and they will stop what they were doing when dead.

Call 911 for waste disposal.

Last edited by Minorcan; 06-07-2016 at 01:27 PM.
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  #65  
Old 06-07-2016, 12:09 PM
Flyinrock1 Flyinrock1 is offline
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I HAVE TO ASK....HOW MANY ON THIS FORUM HAVE BEEN SHOT OR WOUNDED?
The reason being, some opinions posted are just hearsay and BS from other forums.
If you have personally been shot, or wounded, your opinions are more valid than suppositions or hearsay.
Semper Fi
RK
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  #66  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:02 PM
The Collector The Collector is offline
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Shot? Yes! Plate took the AK round while collapsing a room (if you can call that toilet a room) Thank God! Wounded? Never! Knock on wood! But, I hear you Devil Dog!

Altough there are many guys in EMS/Paramedic fields that see alot of sh_ _t. Same for those who perform autopsies. My younger brother is a firefighter/medic and has seen plenty of interesting things regarding bullet wounds.

My concern has never been pathology!

Last edited by The Collector; 06-07-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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  #67  
Old 06-07-2016, 10:32 PM
Gary in TX Gary in TX is offline
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I've been shot, twice in fact.

Not really sure what that has to do with a fat dude getting lit up, I'm not fat.
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  #68  
Old 06-07-2016, 11:34 PM
green papaya green papaya is offline
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Ive been shot at but never been hit.

it's a scary feeling having a full magazine fired at you and not getting hit

Last edited by green papaya; 06-07-2016 at 11:37 PM.
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  #69  
Old 06-08-2016, 07:43 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Interesting side note.....

The famous Wild West marshal, Wyatt Earp was in numerous gunfights during his lifetime..... He survived each encounter and was never hit by a bullet! Two of his brothers were not so fortunate......

Wyatt Earp died in Los Angeles on January 13, 1929 at the ripe old age of 80!

A person doesn't necessarily have to be shot or wounded to have good gun fighting skills.....however, in any potential gun fighting situation, getting off the first accurate shot is a good thing....
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  #70  
Old 06-08-2016, 03:30 PM
hardluk1 hardluk1 is offline
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Don't forget the story of a cop that managed to put 14 rounds of the 33 rounds he fired of 45acp hp in a non-drugged and stone sober pissed off tall thin BG and he still made it to the hospital ER alive .

Shoot what you can control well and hit what you aim at and if a Bbg man comes at you keep shooting and reloading till he's no longer a treat be it a 380 or 44mag .

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/
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  #71  
Old 06-08-2016, 04:11 PM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinrock1 View Post
I HAVE TO ASK....HOW MANY ON THIS FORUM HAVE BEEN SHOT OR WOUNDED?
The reason being, some opinions posted are just hearsay and BS from other forums.
If you have personally been shot, or wounded, your opinions are more valid than suppositions or hearsay.
Semper Fi
RK
Several. I've been wounded twice.

The funny thing is, neither time did I know I was wounded until I saw physical evidence -- bones and blood. And both times I was able to continue functioning.
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  #72  
Old 06-09-2016, 05:46 AM
tacticool tacticool is offline
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I would imagine a .45 ACP Speer Gold Dot feels the same the both a skinny guy and a fat guy
Shot placement would be the key, I think if I do my part the bullet should do it's part
whether or not they go down would depend on how pumped up on drugs they are.
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  #73  
Old 06-09-2016, 06:01 AM
"colt45acp" "colt45acp" is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamlautRanger View Post
Learn to fight the Steve McQueen way and you will be Ok.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze9xnzQ5KrY
For a second I thought he had shot his yappy dog!
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Before you start collecting guns .... buy books! Collect "quality" not a gun that you'll be forever making excuses for, and buy the pistol not the story behind it.
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  #74  
Old 06-09-2016, 06:07 AM
"colt45acp" "colt45acp" is offline
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I've never been shot at, and thank God so far I've never found myself in such a very dangerous situation, I only hope to find enough cold blood to be able to think and aim should that day come.
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Before you start collecting guns .... buy books! Collect "quality" not a gun that you'll be forever making excuses for, and buy the pistol not the story behind it.
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  #75  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:21 AM
plarry plarry is offline
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I have seen some Israeli security/LE videos advocating aiming at the groin and upper thigh area to stop an advancing threat. There are very large blood vessels in that area and it is very difficult to stay vertical with a hip or femur fracture.
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