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  #101  
Old 04-24-2015, 09:44 AM
JRW1951 JRW1951 is offline
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Nice video. Thanks Rhode Island Armory. I've done three trigger jobs using TR jig. Love it!
  #102  
Old 04-24-2015, 10:30 AM
CWarner CWarner is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
Cwarner?

Has anybody thought about a scaled down TR jig for the new 85% sized pistols?
Im sure its been copied, but its not as simple as it looks. There are a couple others in the works....


CW

Last edited by CWarner; 04-24-2015 at 11:53 AM.
  #103  
Old 05-27-2015, 09:56 PM
thedave1164 thedave1164 is offline
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CWarner, do you currently have jigs in stock?
 
  #104  
Old 05-28-2015, 07:14 AM
CWarner CWarner is online now
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We have plenty in stock.

CW
  #105  
Old 05-28-2015, 11:51 AM
thedave1164 thedave1164 is offline
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Thanks, I ordered one, itching to clean up the replacement sear in my Delta Elite
  #106  
Old 05-28-2015, 07:40 PM
CAxVIPER CAxVIPER is offline
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I picked on of these up from Mr. Harrison a few weeks ago and have been extremely happy with it. Easy to use and produced a great result. I've only had one sear that it wouldn't work with and that was due to the length(too short).
  #107  
Old 05-28-2015, 10:12 PM
log man log man is offline
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Originally Posted by CAxVIPER View Post
I picked on of these up from Mr. Harrison a few weeks ago and have been extremely happy with it. Easy to use and produced a great result. I've only had one sear that it wouldn't work with and that was due to the length(too short).
And you know that's another positive thing, as a short sear can really frustrate you. It will seem to be fine, but as the trigger is lightened it will follow.

LOG
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  #108  
Old 05-29-2015, 05:58 PM
thedave1164 thedave1164 is offline
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Got it today, and it was pretty straight forward, certainly made a considerable difference after I cleaned up my sear
  #109  
Old 11-18-2015, 05:14 PM
DesmoAndrew DesmoAndrew is offline
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I've got two range duty 1911's with TR sears. One has a complete TR ignition kit from Harrison Design while the other has an OEM Colt sear that was prepped with the later version of the jig. Both pistols have trigger pulls that are vastly better then they started (3 1/2 ish lbs). However, they both have a small amount of creep just before the hammer is released (not the take up). Not real bad, but noticeable. On the OEM Colt sear I tried adding a small relief angle using a 0.020 shim on top of a stone (used with 0.018 hammer hooks with a >very< small relief on the hammer hook square. This had the effect of reducing the overall amount of trigger travel to release the hammer, but the small amount of creep remained. Before and after working on the sear, I took the thumb safety out to be able to watch what the sear was doing while the trigger was pulled back, and it's possible to see the sear move slightly before the hammer is released; presume this is the creep I feel.

Is this just how these feel, or have I just not correctly completed the fitment process?
  #110  
Old 11-18-2015, 06:15 PM
log man log man is offline
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How about the hammer hooks, equal contact, no longer than .020" and a slight radius on the tips.

My test is to look down into the action in good light, And watch the sear tip you can see through the hammer strut cut. If I can see movement at all before the hammer blocks my view I'm no done yet.

LOG
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  #111  
Old 11-19-2015, 09:08 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Quote:
In Log mans picture it looks like a little more could be taken off the left side in order to have a little more engagement on the right side.
The "TR" theory is sound. I spent a lot of sears trying to perfect the "TR" sear jig some years ago. I actually got Ron Power to make a couple of versions of the "jig" for me. I even have one "TR" jig that adjusts for sear nose length, even though it has no moving parts. At the time, I believed I was pursuing an idea that no one else had.

My results approximated log man's photos. Stoning the sear face to achieve "perfect" contact with both hammer hooks was just too difficult. Using more force on one side or using my adjustable jig to compensate resulted in a "twist" to the sear face. Obviously, the radius of one side of the sear face had to be slightly different from the radius of the other side.

My original goal was to test my theory at the time. If it panned out, which it did, I thought I might manufacture and sell the jigs. Two things ended that idea. One was that I was never satisfied with being able to make the jig produce "perfect" radius cuts cost effectively. The second was that I discovered that Chuck Warner was already on that track.

I still have my original jigs, but I no longer use them. Not because there is anything wrong with the idea. The reason is that, during my research and testing, I learned enough about sear/hammer interface geometry to enable me to cut a flat sear face using a "Power Custom Series I" jig that would perform just as well as the "TR" jig plus I could do it faster.

The "TR" jig offers an excellent way for the kitchen table gunsmith to get very serviceable sears. Duplicating the performance of the "TR" sears while using flat stoning involves a steep learning curve that is not worth the time and effort investment to most home smiths.

Try the "True Radius" jig. You'll like it.
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  #112  
Old 11-19-2015, 09:25 AM
Jerry Keefer Jerry Keefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExpert View Post
The "TR" theory is sound. I spent a lot of sears trying to perfect the "TR" sear jig some years ago. I actually got Ron Power to make a couple of versions of the "jig" for me. I even have one "TR" jig that adjusts for sear nose length, even though it has no moving parts. At the time, I believed I was pursuing an idea that no one else had.
My results approximated log man's photos. Stoning the sear face to achieve "perfect" contact with both hammer hooks was just too difficult. Using more force on one side or using my adjustable jig to compensate resulted in a "twist" to the sear face. Obviously, the radius of one side of the sear face had to be slightly different from the radius of the other side.
My original goal was to test my theory at the time. If it panned out, which it did, I thought I might manufacture and sell the jigs. Two things ended that idea. One was that I was never satisfied with being able to make the jig produce "perfect" radius cuts cost effectively. The second was that I discovered that Chuck Warner was already on that track.
I still have my original jigs, but I no longer use them. Not because there is anything wrong with the idea. The reason is that, during my research and testing, I learned enough about sear/hammer interface geometry to enable me to cut a flat sear face using a "Power Custom Series I" jig that would perform just as well as the "TR" jig plus I could do it faster.
The "TR" jig offers an excellent way for the kitchen table gunsmith to get very serviceable sears. Duplicating the performance of the "TR" sears while using flat stoning involves a steep learning curve that is not worth the time and effort investment to most home smiths.
Try the "True Radius" jig. You'll like it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
  #113  
Old 11-19-2015, 09:43 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Quote:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
What's the name of that tune?
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  #114  
Old 11-19-2015, 10:12 AM
log man log man is offline
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Originally Posted by NoExpert View Post
What's the name of that tune?
"Lots of Contradictions"

LOG
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  #115  
Old 11-19-2015, 10:53 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Quote:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Quote:
"Lots of Contradictions"

Don't want to hi-jack log man's thread, nor do I want to get into any pissing contest with anyone. However, I do want to know what the perceived contradictions are. If you want, list them here so I can see what they are. Maybe it's just my wording.

If not, please send me a PM with them.

I think that everything I posted was correctly stated and true. Seems that may not be the case.
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  #116  
Old 11-19-2015, 08:34 PM
DesmoAndrew DesmoAndrew is offline
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I went back with the sear to the pro jig and more carefully (and perhaps fully) stoned the relief angle. I had used the old 0.020 feeler gage method previously. Still have most of the sear surface with the TR profile. The trigger pull has lost most of the creep I was trying to remove. Contact appears even. Sometimes ya just gotta follow all the directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by log man View Post
How about the hammer hooks, equal contact, no longer than .020" and a slight radius on the tips.

My test is to look down into the action in good light, And watch the sear tip you can see through the hammer strut cut. If I can see movement at all before the hammer blocks my view I'm no done yet.

LOG
  #117  
Old 11-20-2015, 04:57 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExpert View Post
Don't want to hi-jack log man's thread, nor do I want to get into any pissing contest with anyone. However, I do want to know what the perceived contradictions are. If you want, list them here so I can see what they are. Maybe it's just my wording.

If not, please send me a PM with them.

I think that everything I posted was correctly stated and true. Seems that may not be the case.
Be easy to post some photos of the Ron Power prototypes you still have. I for one would love to see the concept and execution. Ron builds good stuff. I have the Powers #1 myself. I could see some mods to it that could approximate the TR result but they ( the mods) are over my pay grade without a fully equipped shop. For accuracy, Jerry Keefers TR hardware is the acme of the process.
Joe

Last edited by Jolly Rogers; 11-20-2015 at 05:01 AM.
  #118  
Old 11-20-2015, 09:09 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Quote:
I could see some mods to it that could approximate the TR result but they (the mods) are over my pay grade without a fully equipped shop.
My "TR" jigs are in no way related to Ron's #1 jig. They generally look like all other "TR" jigs. Two discs. Mine have three pins. One is the pin on which the sear is mounted. The center pin is offset from the center of the discs to allow different length sear noses to be stoned.The other two pins are locator pins to ensure that the two halves are properly aligned (Chuck W came up with a better way to ensure alignment).

This is the drawing I sent Ron for my final version:



Ron had his son Randall produce 4 discs for me as above so that I now have two complete jigs of that version plus my prior versions.

I wasn't going to reveal the other reason I ceased development, but here it is. If the sear pin is coincident with the centers of the discs, only one sear nose length can be stoned. The only way I could figure out how to accommodate different sear nose lengths was to offset the sear pin from the center of the discs. While that does accomplish that goal, it creates another problem. The off center sear pin is now causing a sear face to be stoned that does not lie exactly on the arc created by the rotating sear. The nose arc center is located in a different place than the center of the sear nose arc of rotation. Yes, the difference is small, but it is there.

My feeble mind could not come up with a simple way to accommodate different sear nose lengths and keep the sear nose arc aligned with the arc of travel for the sear nose. Ergo, I went a different way and figured out how to use Ron's Series I to stone sear faces that do not attempt to cock the hammer when the sear is rotated, but also have perfectly safe and reliable sear face slopes.

I use the quotes around "TR" in my posts because that's not what I call mine and I wanted to use a term that others would understand but to distinguish it from mine.

Quote:
to enable me to cut a flat sear face using a "Power Custom Series I" jig
This is my only mention of Ron's Series I in my post. Note the word "flat".

There are no inconsistencies in my post. There seem to be inconsistencies in reading my post.

It was my intention to reinforce the positive aspects of the "TR" sear. I had no intention of detracting from it in any way.
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  #119  
Old 11-21-2015, 07:16 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
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Perhaps my post referring to the Powers #1 has clouded the thread some.
I have one and in using it and thinking about the sears excursion in operation I had imagined using the sear mount in a rotational manner and adding additional support to the stones position. This could allow the sear to sweep under the stone and as it reduced the sear nose could be adjusted to near the sear pivot and ultimately create the radius primary. I don't remember the exact timing of my thoughts as I posted in the 1911 PRO thread where the idea was bounced around. I may have imagined the process during the threads progress as the talk of jigs was mentioned. I did not mean to say that you had used the #1 to do it.
Joe
  #120  
Old 11-21-2015, 08:37 AM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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Quote:
I did not mean to say that you had used the #1 to do it.
Believe me, I looked at that possibility carefully. I could never figure out a reasonably simple reliable way to get the sear to revolve about its pin hole.

I tried lots of ideas. One was to mount the sear on a 4-40 machine screw using two nuts so I could jam them to held the sear, then chuck the screw shaft in my drill press. How's this for a rig?



It actually works pretty well!

I won't even show some of my dumb ideas.
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  #121  
Old 11-21-2015, 09:08 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
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Believe it or not I had similar thoughts too! Glad to learn that I wasn't dreaming impossible dreams. :-)
Joe
  #122  
Old 11-21-2015, 10:52 AM
Jerry Keefer Jerry Keefer is offline
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Back when the TR was on the drawing board(s), some one popped up with a lathe fixture that utilized a tool post grinder.. He was close, but faded from view. The set up procedure for that is too complex, and lacks the precision of the surface grinder.. Harig or Master Grind is the only practical way to do it mechanically.
I tried to locate the exact date I purchased the Master Grind, but too much paper to dig thru.. I am calculating very early 2012..and my lady shooter shot the first Warner TR sear at Perry about that same year..I know of at least one very prominent gunsmith rolling/rounding the primary to a radius by free hand, and doing a reasonable job. Starting with a perfect sear makes the rest of the job sooo much easier...
  #123  
Old 11-21-2015, 11:35 AM
log man log man is offline
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^^^^Exactly!

Many smiths and hobbyists have considered and done a radius sear for years I believe. These ideas were done by individuals for their and their customers benefit and never discussed.
Here is an example taken from a Colt done in the 70's by an unknown smith, and works quite well.



What Chuck Warner did was bring a precise, and simple method for anyone to do, to market. This brought the TR to market with a much greater exposure to the shooting public. Chuck saw through the complex methods of doing a TR sear in infinite radii with in the useful range, as traditional jigs do allow.

He first released a single radius jig of optimal length, that most sears could be cut to, following with the current 4 radii. This separation in thought of an infinite to a fixed radius simplified the requirements of the jig design to produce precision results. That is the genius of this offering.

LOG
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  #124  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:11 PM
NoExpert NoExpert is offline
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I went through a lot of analysis and computation in coming to an understanding of the geometry of hammer/sear interaction. One big help was that I have used Photoshop since it originally came on the market. The tools in Photoshop allow easy, fast and accurate measurement of distances to .001" (± .0005") and angles to 0.1° (± .05°). I realized that I could actually construct parts and observe their interaction at the micro level. That allowed me to begin to understand the factors involved in determining the proper slope of the sear hammer contact surface to achieve desired results. Also, a good (4800 dpi hardware resolution) scanner allows the images of actual parts to be brought into the Photoshop drawings for analysis and examination along with the drawings. The Power Series I jig uses the combination of a long arm (the stone) and an elevator to allow very precise angles to be set (within ± .13°). Using the Series I and Photoshop, theoretical cases could be analyzed, solutions worked out, test parts modified and tested, and even scanned back into the drawings for verification. Excel came to the rescue by making vector analysis of all the involved forces easy. Once I had a good set of drawings showing the vector forces exerted on all the parts from the mainspring through the hammer hooks to the sear hammer engagement surface, it became relatively easy to control trigger pull through varying the slope of the sear hammer engagement surface by setting the stoning angle of the Series I. At that point I realized I could duplicate the theoretical results of the "TR" sear through the practical results of stoning a sear hammer engagement surface flat at the right slope to provide a true neutral engagement.

The upshot of all that is that I can measure receiver pin hole sizes and location, part pin diameters, part pin hole diameters and part dimensions, feed those data into a spreadsheet and get the proper Series I jig settings for a perfectly neutral hammer and sear engagement.

It turns out that it is rarely necessary to make all the measurements because nominal data from dimensional drawings are already entered into the spreadsheet. The resulting graph for .020" hammer hooks versus various sear nose lengths gives the proper elevator height for a neutral hammer/sear engagement. In practice, the results are quite usable.

If trouble arises because of some anomaly in parts (like pin hole spacing) I can make the measurements, enter the data and the spreadsheet will give me a correction.

It probably sounds complicated and expensive. In reality, it is not. I already had Photoshop, digital microscopes and scanners from my years as a photographer. Nominal dimensions produce great results 95% of the time because dimensional errors tend to be randomly distributed.. After setting hammer hook height, I measure the sear nose length, look up the proper elevator setting, stone the sear and it's good to go.

The real test was that I used nominal dimension data to stone 50 sears of varying nose lengths. I can now swap those sears around willy-nilly amongst my 13 1911s and the trigger pulls do not change. Same weight, no creep, etc.
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  #125  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:08 PM
log man log man is offline
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Well this is the contradiction,
Quote:
proper elevator height for a neutral hammer/sear engagement
And the point of the TR sear, which does provide a neutral engagement.

To define neutral I'm speaking of the geometric relationship between the tip of the hammer hook which is resting on the sear primary face, and the sear release edge. As the sear rotates to release the hammer, the hammer doesn't move until the hammer hook tips are clear.

With the traditional sear flat face as per the specs. The point where the hammer hook tips rest is higher, than the escape edge, which I call negative. And the sear can be cut so the point where the hook tips land is lower than the escape edge causing the hammer to lift slightly before release. And I refer to that as positive. With a rotating flat it is one or the other, never neutral.

This is not a contradiction of practice of a "clean crisp" release as the difference of a "correct" flat sear primary surface where the hammer hook tip contact is about .0002" higher, and the sear doesn't allow the hammer to slowly drop before release because the sear snaps out, and it is this as designed relationship that does allow a nice snap break. The drawings are all one needs to grasp when setting a sear in a Series 1 jig. Specifically the sear primary surface is 90° to a line running from the pivot center to the tip.

The hammer hook face is in a plane that when extended toward the hammer's pivot center falls above it. This then causes the hook tip to land first.

Here's a look at the correct sear alignment in the jig showing this 90° relationship.



Or another way to look at it.



LOG
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