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  #51  
Old 11-25-2016, 09:53 AM
kwo51 kwo51 is offline
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Maybe they should be teaching the difference between cover and concealment.
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  #52  
Old 11-25-2016, 01:41 PM
cwo4uscgret cwo4uscgret is offline
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FEMA (what a joke of an agency) developed a training course that was mandatory for all of us at work to take. It was online; and the subject was how to respond to an active shooter situation; about running and hiding - creating a secure place to hide and wait for law enforcement to arrive. This was a mandatory course.

The one thing that was a hilarious joke about this course was the fact that all of us were armed uniformed officers of Customs and Border Protection!
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  #53  
Old 12-28-2016, 03:53 PM
JimCullen JimCullen is offline
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The great American Philosopher Harry Callahan once said "A man has got to know his limitations."
If you have the training, experience and the weapons you will know when and how to fight. Most of the public , who have not been in a fight since kindergarten, and have been told their entire lives that "violence is never the answer" should run or hide.
The people on this Forum are not a representative sample of the larger population.
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  #54  
Old 12-29-2016, 08:26 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Using a gun for Self defense situations.....

One of the posts in this thread said there are three criteria that justify the use of lethal force.....otherwise you will end up in prison (according to the writings of Massod Ayoob)

I think it is very important for any person that has a concealed carry permit to understand the laws of their state when it comes to the use of "lethal force" and what meets the justification to allow lethal force in their state. This could be the difference of a "good shoot" versus incarceration and/or a civil lawsuit.

My home state of Florida uses state statutes to explain the laws. The main criteria for the justification of using lethal force in Florida, is a person must be in fear for their life or the lives of others....this criteria is good for virtually any weapon that is concealed or "on hand" to save your life.....

Know the criteria for the justification of using lethal force for your home state or any state with concealed carry reciprocity you may be visiting if you decide to carry a weapon....
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  #55  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:04 AM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Fight is option #1 for me because I carry. If the situation allows me a shot, I'll take it.

Run: ---- Yes. If EVERYONE can run away, the active shooter situation becomes a lone standoff situation. That's good.

Hide: Yes, If your hide is absolutely secure. Or so damn crafty you're impossible to find.

But "everyone in an office w/ the door blocked" is just a Fish Barrel. Bust a window & get out. Bust through the drywall into the next room & get out. Run to the stairs.

& pull the fire alarm.
That may work out for you if it ever presents itself. Each situation is going to be different. I've been taking shoot simulator classes this past 6 months. Same sim used to teach LEOs, same scenarios, same instructor. One scenario is a convenience store robbery. You're a citizen CCW there with your 10 year old son and similar aged daughter. You are at the back of the store straight in from the door. Your kids are shopping for chips and stuff when you hear the perp yelling at the clerk for the cash. Of the handful of students I've seen go thru this, all have drawn their weapon and engaged the perp at the counter. All lost their child to the second perp with a shotgun that came in the other corner of the store earlier. The scenario is based on a true story where an off-duty LEO lost his daughter. It hits fathers pretty hard when they mess this up.

The simulator is about making good decisions. You learn fast to establish your priorities. I highly recommend it, if you have the opportunity.
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  #56  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:39 PM
sam1 sam1 is offline
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Originally Posted by AdamG247 View Post
I chose the latter. The former two options are not in my play book. But I will be armed and ready for this possibility. If I were caught unarmed, well, then running slowly might be my choice. But I would fight if I found a way to do it with any chance of success.

Old Guys with little to lose can be very dangerous if cornered.
I 2nd that and it won't take any time for us to make up our mind.
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  #57  
Old 01-13-2017, 06:45 AM
bmur66 bmur66 is offline
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I work in a knife factory. We would all run....to our trucks to get our guns
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  #58  
Old 01-28-2017, 03:54 AM
redsand redsand is offline
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Old Guys with little to lose can be very dangerous if cornered.

No truer words have never been spoken.
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  #59  
Old 01-28-2017, 04:18 AM
sam1 sam1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broker50 View Post
Too old to run, too fat to hide, & neither are in my nature.........I may have one fight left in me, though.
A lot of people are in your situation.It beats stop,drop , and roll.
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  #60  
Old 01-28-2017, 06:26 AM
TjB101 TjB101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post

Maybe I'd go Rambo, Or maybe curl up & suck my thumb. So, like everyone, I can only guess at what I would do. I recognize that truth.

Ditto... and very funny.
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  #61  
Old 01-28-2017, 08:50 AM
Slow bullet guy Slow bullet guy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamG247 View Post
DHS = Department of Homicidal Sheep
I thought it was Department of Homeless Security...
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  #62  
Old 02-26-2017, 11:26 AM
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fast eddie fast eddie is offline
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Run hide fight is only the response portion of a much larger program needed to stop active shooters. The program requires an effective threat assessment and physical security protocol to augment this piece of the response protocol.

Sun Tzu tells us the best victory is the battle never fought. Run Hide Fight only comes into play when a threat is never identified from fear of offending someone and the victims are protected by ineffective security measures. This leaves us the only option, to respond to the attack. Ideally, if we cannot deter the threat by managing his motivation and capability, we should have adequate delay to mount an appropriate response. This is rarely the case in an active shooter. Seconds of delay count and can cost or save lives.

A good physical security program goes a long way to deter, detect assess and respond to an active shooter. Most physical security plans are OK at best, but the effectiveness is further degraded by the employees self defeating security measures for convenience. Others are ineffective due to denial or lack of leadership dedicating appropriate assets.

As a security professional (no longer in the .mil environment) this is one of the few times we have the ability to manage the motivation and capability of the threat. Most shooters (about 80 %) have a legitimate reason for being in the location from which they select their victims. Focus on PC prevents us from treating threats as threats at the risk of the lives of innocent customers, employees and family members. Read DeBeckers book "The Gift of Fear" for how PC defeats our survival instinct.

It almost always comes down to money. No one ever has the money to do it right and develop a comprehensive program. Amazingly, it appears when someone gets shot.

I had an HR Director that attended one of my classes and later called and stated that she had an IT director get caught with porn on his LapTop. Single parent, son with stage 4 pancreatic cancer. She feared he would become violent. She called for advice, thinking I would give advice on guards guns metal detectors etc. I told her to fire him unapologetically but to leave his family on the health insurance until his son passed and give him 6 mos severance. Letting him leave with his dignity helps manage his motivation to become a threat.

Others elect to raise the efficiency of their security protocol. We have numerous school districts that are arming select teachers to serve as advanced delay features. No man hunting in the hallway, but teachers and administrators, armed and trained in the classroom should an active shooter event occur.

So if you are in a position to have to respond by running hiding or fighting, lots of other stuff has already gone wrong.
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Last edited by fast eddie; 02-26-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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  #63  
Old 02-26-2017, 12:43 PM
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tgt_usa tgt_usa is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
I'm a DHS certified Run Hide Fight instructor.

You have to remember unlike the majority of us on this forum the general public will not be carrying. They will not be veterans, they will NOT be ready, willing or able to actively fight for their own lives.

The Run Hide Fight program was created give some guidelines to people who until very recently chose to completely ignore the fact that life can sometimes take a nasty turn. Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but its a start.
In SD training classes, especially force-on-force, it becomes apparent that those options in that order, when at all available, produce a great advantage. Doing your fighting from a hide, often means a / the BG has already been hit twice before he knows he's -in- a fight. Well chosen timing can give a lot more set-up time for the first shot than you'd get trying to stand-your-ground.

FoF teaches: its more important not to be shot than to shoot. If two seconds into a stand-up fight, one is disabled: that's not offering as much help to others as one might have. Similarly, field medicine classes teach to make the area safe before even moving a victim off of the X. If the BGs add you to the pile, it just makes it that much harder on other GGs to help; putting those GGs at greater risk.
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  #64  
Old 02-26-2017, 01:17 PM
BradLH BradLH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VetPsychWars View Post
This doctrine doesn't sound all that stupid to me, though I might term it, "evade, escape, fight." I want to remove myself from the situation if I can, since I don't get paid to carry a badge with my gun. Only if forced to will I shoot.

I certainly don't think of myself as a sheep. I'm just not physically capable of fighting back any more.
Agree 100%. I've been through defensive firearms classes and was reasonably confident in my ability to defend myself with a firearm, that was before I experienced "trigger freeze" during a timed test.

The good thing is it occurred during a simulation and I learned that strange things can happen while under stress. I'll avoid testing myself in a real gunfight if at all possible.
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