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  #126  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:30 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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Naturally, a hit to the CNS will bring about incapacitation more reliably than anything else, but the chance of landing one in the average gunfight-short, frantic, imperfect affairs-is pretty low. The spinal cord is the width of a rope, and the brain, while much larger, is still isolated away from the torso, located in a part of the body that may be moving quickly. I've seen at least 2 videos where the defenders appeared to have missed it at point blank range, and that was against assailants that were either stationary or making absolutely no attempt to dodge. Headshots have their place, but in the grand scheme of things (not talking about individual instances here), they're not substitutes for consistent center mass hits.

Neither the heart nor the aorta are reliable targets either. The heart's even smaller than the brain, and as for the aorta, it was mentioned somewhere on another message board that "a dick would literally be a larger target." To make things worse, you know where someone's dick would be, but you almost certainly won't know exactly where their heart or aorta are, because there's just nothing to outline them. Additionally, they also differ in location and size from individual to individual. Then again, so does the size of someone's sperm sausage, but I digress.

The good thing is that you don't actually have to hit the heart, vena cava, or aorta to produce an incapacitation; hits to the lungs will usually work just fine, and I'm guessing this is how most physical stops occur. On top of being necessary for respiration, they're also packed full of pulmonary arteries and veins as well as their branches, plus there are a lot of complications that can occur when you put a hole there (air embolisms, hemothorax, pneumothorax, etc.). In this case, while the subject may have been hit 14 times, he only took 4 shots to the thoracic cavity, and while most aggressors will likely require less than 4 .45 hollowpoints to the chest before they stop, I wouldn't say it's extremely unusual either. Now staying on your feet after being shot that many times regardless, definitely unusual, but then again the thing about unusual events is that they don't occur all too often. There's a reason will cases like these are so notable: They're also one out of thousands, perhaps tens of thousands.

IMO: Aim for the lungs, hope to hit the heart, and if you've verified that this isn't working in spite of multiple hits, go for the head. This is all assuming you've managed to remain alive and in fighting condition up to this point.
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  #127  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:50 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Problem with lung hits is time.... while it may eventually be incapacitating or fatal, such injuries generally take TIME, lots of it, mesured in minutes, to be incapacitating. How much damage you do to the lungs is critical. A small, non expanding, high velocity bullet may put 2 holes in each lung, leaving the target quite function for several minutes or more- hours with simple field medical care.. An expanding, slower, larger, lower energy bullet may only make 1 or 2 "holes" in one lung, but the transfer of energy or momentum may be catastrophic, completely destroying the organ. The results should be more immediate, but its far from a sure thing....
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  #128  
Old 01-05-2017, 07:51 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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School bus size grouper....?

Quote:
The school buss sized groupers at the "Spiegel Grove" under the platform at 99 feet is a good start.
I have been a salt water scuba diver for over 40 years, and still dive on occasion. I have never seen a "school bus size grouper." The biggest grouper are called Goliath Grouper. They can get big, but not school bus size....
The attached picture is a Goliath grouper that weighed about 300 lbs. that I shot and killed with a Sea Hornet spear gun. I have seen some as big as 500 lbs. but the bigger they get, the worse the taste due to excessive fat seams in the fillets. Even the 300 lb. fish shown was not very good to eat. The Goliath Grouper is now on the endangered species list, and is illegal to spear and/or harvest with a rod and reel.
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  #129  
Old 01-05-2017, 08:10 PM
Jack Ryan Jack Ryan is offline
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Meh, never shot any one. Never been shot.

Just the same, I've shot a lot of deer and God forbid I ever have to shoot any people. I'll shoot them the same way I shoot deer.

1. Decide if I'm going to shoot them.
2. Shoot them through the heart if I can or.
3. As near the heart as I can.
4. As many times as it takes until they are not a threat or stop moving or I have to reload.
5. With the biggest gun I've got or the onliest gun I've got.
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  #130  
Old 01-05-2017, 08:20 PM
Kosh75287 Kosh75287 is offline
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Quote:
Um, you did see the "smiley," rite?
I did, this time. Sorry.
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  #131  
Old 01-05-2017, 10:10 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Problem with lung hits is time.... while it may eventually be incapacitating or fatal, such injuries generally take TIME, lots of it, mesured in minutes, to be incapacitating. How much damage you do to the lungs is critical. A small, non expanding, high velocity bullet may put 2 holes in each lung, leaving the target quite function for several minutes or more- hours with simple field medical care.. An expanding, slower, larger, lower energy bullet may only make 1 or 2 "holes" in one lung, but the transfer of energy or momentum may be catastrophic, completely destroying the organ. The results should be more immediate, but its far from a sure thing....
Longer to incapacitate on average than the heart or CNS, yes. Minutes? For a single hit that only severs the small branches of the pulmonary arteries and veins, maybe, but multiple hits to the lungs with service caliber hollowpoints seem to be pretty good at effecting incapacitatation within a matter of seconds-unless, in fact, all those criminals getting shot on video by police actually are getting hit in the heart or spinal cord, which (for reasons noted prior) would seem extremely unlikely.

Of course, a round that causes much more damage would be a lot more effective. However, like most tissues in the body, lung tissue is elastic enough to resist the stretching effects of temporary cavitation caused by the handgun cartridges in common use for self defense. So one should be looking at the expanded size of the projectile rather than the level of energy transferred. (Momentum, while probably a better external indicator of handgun effectiveness than ft lbs energy, is likely more closely related to the penetration of the projectile and its path. It may have some effect on the width of the permanent cavity, as a bullet which imparts more force on a surface would be more liable to cut or crush tissue rather than push it out of the way, but I don't think momentum transfer would allow a bullet to damage flesh outside of what it directly impacts.)

For that matter, here's another wounding factor for everyone! According to Duncan McPherson, it also seems to be the case that destroying an adequate amount of tissue can often induce incapacitation-this is as much as he concluded from the Thompson-LaGarde tests, anyhow. In the words of ShootingtheBull410, whom I take it several members here are familiar with, "He bases his formula on the general idea of overall tissue damage causing the body to shut down, as verified in an old Thompson-LaGarde test where steers were shot in non-vital areas with various calibers until they dropped. It can be presumed that the steers weren’t influenced by any of the psychological factors, because the steers wouldn’t know what a gun was, wouldn’t know that having been shot meant they needed to get to the hospital, etc. And, by avoiding the central nervous system or circulatory system, they showed that general damage to the body in sufficient quantity would be enough to cause the steer to drop."

McPherson puts the benchmark at only 40 grams of tissue, presumably variable depending on the weight of the subject, and not applicable to limbs and the such. I would personally place it much higher, at at least 100 grams. For comparison, using McPherson's formula, a 9mm HST out of a compact handgun has a WTI factor of about 46. I don't know the formula and I haven't personally conducted an ammo test, but I'm guessing the .45 HST out of a full size handgun scores about 75 or so. Obviously this isn't going to be consistent all the time, as we've seen from instances where people took hits in the double digit range. In most cases, people also aren't going to follow the rule of critical existence failure, where, for example, if their limit is indeed 40 grams of tissue, they'll be functioning like nothing ever happened with 39 grams of flesh carved out of their body and then suddenly drop like someone flicked an off switch at 40. That's just true of bodily damage in general, for that matter: Even if someone needs to lose a fourth of their blood to go down, it doesn't mean they'd fight just as well having lost a fifth!
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  #132  
Old 01-05-2017, 10:47 PM
DT Guy DT Guy is offline
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Just wanted to mention that all this talk about 'head shots' seems...optimistic.

Much of the skull is strongly chined, specifically to deflect impact and projectiles; evolution has made us particularly protective of our brain case. A generic 'head shot' should really be focused more on the 'sniper's triangle' to ensure penetration to the soft tissue of the optic nerves and brain.

In essence, the actual target a head represents is actually even smaller than the overall size of the head-hence the problem with recommending 'head shots' in defensive shooting.

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  #133  
Old 01-06-2017, 06:47 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Taking a head shot on a bad guy in a self defense scenario....

The ability to deliver a good head shot is a variable. It may depend on all or some of the following:

1) The distance to the bad guy and whether or not he is relatively stationary

2) The ability to see the sights even if it is dark....

3) The inherent accuracy of the gun

4) The skill level of the person shooting

5) The ability of the shooter to maintain composure in the situation.....often
described as being "cool under pressure."

The age old "Mozambique Drill" of two to COM and one to the head is still viable for most shooters.....

However, for me, if I can see my sights, shooting a head shot at 10 yards or less is not difficult.....the closer the target the easier to make the hit. Even if the shot hits the skull on an angle and is deflected, the impact may be enough to stun the shooter or render him unconscious.....the idea is to continue to fire until the threat stops, assess the damage to the threat while removing any weapons near the threat.....
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  #134  
Old 01-06-2017, 08:24 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citruslime45 View Post
Longer to incapacitate on average than the heart or CNS, yes. Minutes? For a single hit that only severs the small branches of the pulmonary arteries and veins, maybe, but multiple hits to the lungs with service caliber hollowpoints seem to be pretty good at effecting incapacitatation within a matter of seconds-unless, in fact, all those criminals getting shot on video by police actually are getting hit in the heart or spinal cord, which (for reasons noted prior) would seem extremely unlikely.

Its easily possible to function for minutes with multiple holes is both lungs- I've seen it firsthand, more than once. My best guess, based on my understanding of human physiology, anatomy, and psychological, is that those LE "stops" you see are caused by one of 2 things: either one of thos multiple bullets to the chest hits the spine, heart or aorta, OR isa a "psychological" stop rather than physical incapacitatation.

Of course, a round that causes much more damage would be a lot more effective. However, like most tissues in the body, lung tissue is elastic enough to resist the stretching effects of temporary cavitation caused by the handgun cartridges in common use for self defense. So one should be looking at the expanded size of the projectile rather than the level of energy transferred. (Momentum, while probably a better external indicator of handgun effectiveness than ft lbs energy, is likely more closely related to the penetration of the projectile and its path. It may have some effect on the width of the permanent cavity, as a bullet which imparts more force on a surface would be more liable to cut or crush tissue rather than push it out of the way, but I don't think momentum transfer would allow a bullet to damage flesh outside of what it directly impacts.)

You're correct, I mispoke. Its energy transfer and how that occurs that we're looking at. I don't agree that the elastic nature of lung tissue protecting them. While anecdotal, from my limited handgun hunting experience with a .357, at 50-75 yards, a solid heart lung hit utterly destroys the organs- they look like they've been run through a blender.

For that matter, here's another wounding factor for everyone! According to Duncan McPherson, it also seems to be the case that destroying an adequate amount of tissue can often induce incapacitation-this is as much as he concluded from the Thompson-LaGarde tests, anyhow. In the words of ShootingtheBull410, whom I take it several members here are familiar with, "He bases his formula on the general idea of overall tissue damage causing the body to shut down, as verified in an old Thompson-LaGarde test where steers were shot in non-vital areas with various calibers until they dropped. It can be presumed that the steers weren’t influenced by any of the psychological factors, because the steers wouldn’t know what a gun was, wouldn’t know that having been shot meant they needed to get to the hospital, etc. And, by avoiding the central nervous system or circulatory system, they showed that general damage to the body in sufficient quantity would be enough to cause the steer to drop."

This was junk science in 1904, and its not particularly valid today. Shooting something to watch it die, isn "research". The physiology of a steer is vastly different than that of a human. 2 dozen animals shot, with half a dozen different, calibers, with wildly varying "results". Not a single post mortum examination of wounds... Worthless data.

McPherson puts the benchmark at only 40 grams of tissue, presumably variable depending on the weight of the subject, and not applicable to limbs and the such. I would personally place it much higher, at at least 100 grams. For comparison, using McPherson's formula, a 9mm HST out of a compact handgun has a WTI factor of about 46. I don't know the formula and I haven't personally conducted an ammo test, but I'm guessing the .45 HST out of a full size handgun scores about 75 or so. Obviously this isn't going to be consistent all the time, as we've seen from instances where people took hits in the double digit range. In most cases, people also aren't going to follow the rule of critical existence failure, where, for example, if their limit is indeed 40 grams of tissue, they'll be functioning like nothing ever happened with 39 grams of flesh carved out of their body and then suddenly drop like someone flicked an off switch at 40. That's just true of bodily damage in general, for that matter: Even if someone needs to lose a fourth of their blood to go down, it doesn't mean they'd fight just as well having lost a fifth!
40 grams of tissue isn't much, and doesn't factor WHAT tissue is damaged.... I'm not buying McPhersons "scale". If 40g is required for instant incapacitatation, and the average .45 scores a 55, then- in the majority of cases- a single torso shot will cause instant incapacitatation.... I don think anyone here believes this to be the reality.

Psychology is a HUGE consideration, as demonstrated by those that absorb hit after hit with little affect.

My take, assuming a decent, expanding, service caliber round, is this:

-hit the brain, its lights out
-sever the spine, they're physically incapable of fighting
-hit the heart, the fight is over in 5 second or less; most probably 1 second or less...

ANYTHING else is a craps shoot. Even destroying the lungs alone doesn't cause rapid, physical incapacitatation- there's still enough oxygenated blood for a couple of minutes of function. That function will likely be degraded, and continue to degrade as O2 levels drop... but its not an "instant" stop.
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  #135  
Old 01-06-2017, 05:41 PM
Butthead Butthead is offline
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Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
I did, this time. Sorry.
No need to apologize. Just having fun being the forums spelling Nazi.
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  #136  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:25 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
40 grams of tissue isn't much, and doesn't factor WHAT tissue is damaged.... I'm not buying McPhersons "scale". If 40g is required for instant incapacitatation, and the average .45 scores a 55, then- in the majority of cases- a single torso shot will cause instant incapacitatation.... I don think anyone here believes this to be the reality.

Psychology is a HUGE consideration, as demonstrated by those that absorb hit after hit with little affect.

My take, assuming a decent, expanding, service caliber round, is this:

-hit the brain, its lights out
-sever the spine, they're physically incapable of fighting
-hit the heart, the fight is over in 5 second or less; most probably 1 second or less...

ANYTHING else is a craps shoot. Even destroying the lungs alone doesn't cause rapid, physical incapacitatation- there's still enough oxygenated blood for a couple of minutes of function. That function will likely be degraded, and continue to degrade as O2 levels drop... but its not an "instant" stop.
Certainly 40 g looks very low, and by no means are the Thompson-LaGarde tests scientifically valid for determining relative cartridge effectiveness for humans, or anything for that matter. And one would also expect different results depending on the type of tissue impacts-destroying a pound of intestine might not hamper someone's fighting ability to any significant degree. I don't think one should get too wrapped up in the limits and benchmarks of the subject; the main take away, rather, is that it's possible that massive trauma to the body may produce rapid incapacitation even without destroying the major organs of the CNS and the circulatory system. As such, the WTI figure is better used as a measure of damage than a pass/fail test.

Now, as for hitting the lungs, yes, no doubt there are instances where multiple hits to the respiratory system failed to produce an incapacitation, but I think most hunters, firearm instructors, and wound ballistics experts can agree that, in general, hitting those organs is a fairly reliable method of stopping an attacker. If we base our conclusions off of exceptions, there are likely people who have been shot through the cerebrum and remained conscious for at least a short period of time! But if we're looking at the norm, bowhunting sites claim that a deer that has been shot through both lungs with a single arrow can be expected to run less than 200 yards, with a clear blood trail and a large amount of hemorrhaging. Keep in mind that an arrowhead will likely be less damaging than a premium .45 hollowpoint.

It should be noted that lung trauma differs from simply, say, dropping someone in a room without oxygen. In the latter case, they might be able to do okay for 2 or 3 minutes before being combat ineffective, but in such a situation, they retain full lung capacity and function as well as all of their blood. Sure, they're not taking any new oxygen in through their airway, but the air already stored in their lungs can still be utilized, and the alveoli remain capable of holding carbon dioxide. Shooting the lungs actively compromises the capability of the respiratory system to carry out the gas exchange; in addition to simply taking out a chunk of the organ, the pockets fill with blood and the lung becomes compressed by air and liquid flowing into the chest cavity. This is simultaneous with severe blood loss, which further hampers the body's capability to sustain its muscles and remove waste products, and the possible infiltration of air bubbles into blood vessels, which serve serve as a sort of blockage. Furthermore, the air and blood entering the thoracic cavity can press against the heart, further restricting circulatory function. Basically, there's just a whole lot more that goes wrong with a penetration of the lungs compared to holding your breath or the such. Complete destruction of both lungs, while more difficult to achieve, would likely have similar effects to a heart shot: Most of the blood would probably not even make it to the destination thanks to massive bleeding from the pulmonary arteries and veins, and what remains would get there slowly due to reduced blood pressure, and then be completely useless after delivering whatever oxygen remains. (In fact, it'd be worse than useless, thanks to the buildup of CO2.)

Regarding shootings caught on camera, I mentioned them because some suspects don't stop after the first shot (despite occasionally being grounded), but throwing a couple more drops of lead their way punches their ticket. This would seem to make a psychological stop unlikely, as it seems like most assailants who choose to stop would 1) do so after being hit just 1 or 2 times, rather than waiting to be swiss cheesed and 2) wouldn't attempt to keep fighting after sustaining debilitating injuries. It could be possible that all of these people were shot through the heart, aorta/vena cava or the spinal cord, but given the sizes of these structures, it would be akin to (please forgive me for the mental image!) shooting at someone running around jerking off with their junk getting pulled up by a 1/4' rope, and you having to hit their fist, their dick, or the rope. The likelihood of that seems pretty low, yet the criminals stop all the same.

Concerning the effect of temporary cavity on lung tissue, an experiment conducted by Martin Fackler found that a yawing 5.45x39mm would make a hole barely larger than the profile of the bullet. The results you observed could possibly be attributed to, for example, the lung collapse mentioned earlier.

Last edited by Citruslime45; 01-06-2017 at 07:29 PM.
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  #137  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:49 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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While hunting can demonstrate some of the physical trauma, the behavior of a deer is based on the primal flight reflex of a prey animal. I've turned the heart and lungs of more than one deer to puree with both rifle and magnum pistol rounds, and had them bolt 50-100 yards, in a few seconds- purely a flight reflex.

Damage the lungs, even with 3 or 4 good, expanding HP pistol rounds, and they will continue to function for a time. Not at 100% efficiency, or maybe not even 50%, but they function. It can easily take minutes for oxygen levels to drop to the point that the subject id physically incapacitated.

You're assuming a psychological stop is a "choice", it isn't. The subject believes, at a subconscious level, that he's incapacitated, and ceases hostilities. Pain or shock overcomes will...

The WTI is fairly worthless, as its grounded in junk "science", based on the Thompson-LeGarde study.... I think the concept actually has value, but the application is severely lacking.

I agree that massive, non incapacitating, trauma MAY result in fairly rapid (though not instantaneous) incapacitation. Lung shots take TIME to achieve physical incapacitation; anything achieved in a few seconds is purely a psychological cessation of hostility, rather than the absolute physical inability to continue the fight.
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  #138  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:57 PM
Kosh75287 Kosh75287 is offline
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Quote:
However, for me, if I can see my sights, shooting a head shot at 10 yards or less is not difficult.....the closer the target the easier to make the hit.
Have you tried doing that from 10 yards on a target that is shooting at YOU? I suspect your capability to make a head shot will drop by a factor of 2, at least, and possibly by an order of magnitude.

Maybe this has already been touched on, but lung shots can vary in their capacity to shut off an attacker. A complete through-and-through shot in one lung is not a trivial wound, but it leaves one lung fully functional. The clock doesn't begin ticking on tissues being deprived of oxygen until total interruption of gas exchange. So the adage "better one hole in (each of) two lungs, than two holes in one lung" warrants remembering.
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  #139  
Old 01-06-2017, 08:42 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
While hunting can demonstrate some of the physical trauma, the behavior of a deer is based on the primal flight reflex of a prey animal. I've turned the heart and lungs of more than one deer to puree with both rifle and magnum pistol rounds, and had them bolt 50-100 yards, in a few seconds- purely a flight reflex.

Damage the lungs, even with 3 or 4 good, expanding HP pistol rounds, and they will continue to function for a time. Not at 100% efficiency, or maybe not even 50%, but they function. It can easily take minutes for oxygen levels to drop to the point that the subject id physically incapacitated.

You're assuming a psychological stop is a "choice", it isn't. The subject believes, at a subconscious level, that he's incapacitated, and ceases hostilities. Pain or shock overcomes will...

The WTI is fairly worthless, as its grounded in junk "science", based on the Thompson-LeGarde study.... I think the concept actually has value, but the application is severely lacking.

I agree that massive, non incapacitating, trauma MAY result in fairly rapid (though not instantaneous) incapacitation. Lung shots take TIME to achieve physical incapacitation; anything achieved in a few seconds is purely a psychological cessation of hostility, rather than the absolute physical inability to continue the fight.
Although I have several contentions with the above, I think it would be very much veering into the speculative, and it doesn't really do any good to discuss it further. If these are your beliefs about incapacitation, by all means, keep them! Perhaps the grander conclusion to be drawn is that, regardless of what gets hit or why it happens, people who get shot repeatedly in the chest by service caliber hollowpoints will almost always cease in very short order. So keep up the practice on landing shots there and, if that doesn't work, then we can switch to the FTS drills.

Though, on a factual point:
Quote:
A complete through-and-through shot in one lung is not a trivial wound, but it leaves one lung fully functional. The clock doesn't begin ticking on tissues being deprived of oxygen until total interruption of gas exchange. So the adage "better one hole in (each of) two lungs, than two holes in one lung" warrants remembering.
It's better to hit both lungs, for sure, but only damaging one of them will also reduce the ability of the body to supply oxygen. Besides the resulting blood loss, which will likely be substantial, damaging one lung still reduces the ability of the body to supply oxygen at 100%, as the other lung can't simply work harder to "take up the slack." One can observe that patients suffering from pneumothorax will find it a lot harder to breath even if only one side is affected.
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  #140  
Old 01-07-2017, 05:19 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Shooting a head shot.....

If someone has already started shooting at you, and you have not taken cover, you have a very low chance of survival if the distance is 10 yds. or less.

I prefer not to "trade shots" with anyone without cover, especially if they have fired the first shot! I would be moving at high speed to any available cover.....

The Skokie, IL, police officer I mentioned did the same......he was fired upon while still in his squad car, but emptied his first G-21 magazine at the suspect through his police cruiser windshield. When the suspect went back to his own vehicle to get another gun, the LEO left his squad car inserted a fresh mag in his Glock, and took cover off the roadway from a nearby tree trunk.....he continued trading shots, but eventually hit the suspect with a well placed headshot, which ended the fight.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-07-2017 at 05:22 AM.
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  #141  
Old 01-07-2017, 06:56 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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I always find it interesting some of the views about shot placement. Certainly, if the person like the cop above, is behind cover, and possibly has his gun rested or "partially-rested", or at least he has a perfect stance, perfect shot placement (ie head shot mentions) is very doable, but in many instances with both participant's moving, hum, might not be so easy to hit a specific "organ". Not to say one shouldn't try, but don't think it can be "counted on". Shooting stationary targets on a range, or even ones coming directly at you, is quite different than all the possibilities which may come to pass in a real gun fight, of course everyone knows this. I can shoot head-shots at 25 yards free hand all day (see attached), at least when both sides are stationary. And I am sure most shooter's here can do the same. But if I was moving, and the perp was moving, I'd take the higher-probability center-mass shot (upper torso) any day of the week...Just a thought, and why no matter how some segments pound the table about shoot-placement is everything, in many instances, it may be very unlikely to get the perfect shot. Get's back to other variables like caliber choice, where, when shot placement is not "perfect", a fatter, more powerful caliber, will likely give an edge. But that is another discussion.
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Last edited by combat auto; 01-07-2017 at 08:00 AM.
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  #142  
Old 01-07-2017, 08:39 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
.....he continued trading shots, but eventually hit the suspect with a well placed headshot, which ended the fight.....
Actually, he hit the head with at least 3 shots... and, if what was said about the heart being hit was true, the fight was over before they were fired.

CA brought up a great point about shot placement- for all but the most experienced and dedicated handguner, 'shot placement' is more luck that skill. The case of the IL LE0 illustrates this well- firearms instructor, SWAT officer... and his initial respons was "spray and pray", and he missed 66% of his shots..... he even acknowledged in the narrative that he got to a point where he made a consiouse decision to "slow down" and think about what he was doing....

IF you can get multilpe A zone hits, you have a very good probability hitting the heart, aorta, or spine, and ending it. However, thats a big IF...

Since textbook perfect A zone hits are unlikely, putting the best hits possible on target, causing as much cumulative damage as quickly as possible is your next best option. Hit with enough momentum, dump enough energy, and cause enough smaller injuries to create a critical drop in blood pressure.

Realistically, the vast majority of "stops" will be psychological, rather than physical incapacitation, the results of subconsciously quitting rather than lack of physically capability to fight. Most lack the will, the drive, to continue fighting after receiving what they perceive to be critical injuries... momentum determines how "hard" the hit feels to the target. The greater the sensation of being hit, the greater the affects. Regardless, barring a spine hit, if they survive the event, the "stop" was most probably psychological rather than physiological.
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  #143  
Old 01-09-2017, 10:46 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Skokie, IL, shoot out with bank robber...

Quote:
"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins says. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."
It is interesting to note there are several conflicting details about the above shoot out.

One report says the officer hit the suspect 14 times, while another says he hit the bad guy 17 times. One report says he fired a 3 round burst and one shot when through the sides of the bad guy's mouth while another shot hit the top of the skull and into the brain, which stopped the fight.....the bad guy was still alive but incapacitated by the head shot....he died later in the hospital.

Even though the details may vary, the head shot incapacitated the bad guy from shooting back at the LEO.... the other 14 or so reported hits with the officer's .45 still allowed the bad guy to continue the fight, even though mortally wounded..... as wcountryboy mentioned with his post, many bad guys quit fighting due to psychological reasons when they are shot..... The bad guy in the Skokie, IL, shoot out was not high on drugs, but had a strong will to continue the fight after taking many multiple hits.....several of which would have been fatal in a few more minutes. However, when a bad guy is shooting at you, you may not have the luxury of a few more minutes, so shot placement that disrupts the central nervous system is best.....even with the venerable .45acp round! Shoot until the threat stops is a good motto!

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-10-2017 at 06:57 AM.
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  #144  
Old 01-09-2017, 12:13 PM
ACPete ACPete is offline
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If he's obese you should be able to outrun him. Save your ammo...it's expensive.
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  #145  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:36 AM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
he even acknowledged in the narrative that he got to a point where he made a consiouse decision to "slow down" and think about what he was doing....
That's the key. Slow down, or rather "slow down" because things still go fast... But you have to take mental control over the situation, and that's the difficult part.

One needs a lot of self-control. Experience improves things, but these are unfortunately exceptional circumstances, so ordinary folks don't get to gain experience.

Mental preparation is crucial...
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  #146  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:16 PM
Jack Ryan Jack Ryan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
Have you tried doing that from 10 yards on a target that is shooting at YOU? I suspect your capability to make a head shot will drop by a factor of 2, at least, and possibly by an order of magnitude.

Maybe this has already been touched on, but lung shots can vary in their capacity to shut off an attacker. A complete through-and-through shot in one lung is not a trivial wound, but it leaves one lung fully functional. The clock doesn't begin ticking on tissues being deprived of oxygen until total interruption of gas exchange. So the adage "better one hole in (each of) two lungs, than two holes in one lung" warrants remembering.
Very few people have EVER shot at ANY THING that wasn't nailed, stapled, or taped to something or already dead and inanimate sitting on the ground or a post to be repeatedly shot at over and over in the same position they shot at it last time a week, months or year ago.

Tie a soda bottle full of water to a string and hang that from a tree limb at heart or eye level and give that a little swing. EVEN THAT is child's play compared to somebody SHOOTING BACK. Now hit the shot timer and draw your gun to shoot that heart size, brain size, MOVING target and watch how fast people decide they want to move up "a little closer".

Suddenly the Wyatt Earps and Dirty Harry's start to disappear and a guy who recognizes the difference between a gun OWNER and gun USER.

Heaven forbid there is TWO of them.
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  #147  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:27 PM
enloe enloe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete177 View Post
shots to lower abdomen or junk. I imagine a fully expanded 45acp hollow point exiting one's a$$hole would cause one to reconsider their view of the world.
they would be able to see better when they have their head up their ass
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  #148  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:42 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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I guess I am one of the few "shooters"

Quote:
Very few people have EVER shot at ANY THING that wasn't nailed, stapled, or taped to something or already dead and inanimate sitting on the ground or a post to be repeatedly shot at over and over in the same position they shot at it last time a week, months or year ago.
I have been involved with competitive action shooting in both USPSA and IDPA for over 25 years. I have had to fire at Texas Stars, the Polish plate rack, swingers, movers, plate racks, drop and turn targets, appearing and disappearing targets etc.

I was shooting today and had 5 rounds remaining in the gun, so I stepped back to 25 yards, and from the draw I shot at the head of an IDPA target rather quickly....maintaining good concentration on the front sight and how it settled after recoil.... I had 5 good hits inside the head area that grouped about 5-1/2" in the center of the target head area. I most likely had a 1.75 sec. draw to the first shot, and subsequent .30 splits....since I always slow down for 25 yard shooting. I had already put away my shot timer, but I am pretty sure it was about a 3 second or less drill to shoot the five head shots at 25 yards....

If I had to shoot a head shot at 10 yards on a stationary or slightly moving target from a position of cover, I am confident I could make the shot.... One thing I will not attempt to do is trade shots with a bad guy while I am standing in the open....I will run and zig zag to any available cover, or simply keep my butt moving to get the heck out of the area.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-10-2017 at 01:51 PM.
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  #149  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:26 PM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green papaya View Post
since the M1911 only has 7 rd magazine for most standard sized pistols, whats the best way to take down an extra big bad guy? some guys are almost the size of a Grizzly bear

does a persons overall size have an effect on how hard it might be to take them down, I heard some ex pro football player sized guys can take several hits and keep on comming.

I remember seeing some video footage of a traffic stop and the big bad guy was able to keep fighting even though he had been hit numerous times.
None ... none keep going with a CNS hit. My sim session last Saturday I was briefed the perps I was rolling up on known M.O. bad guy that takes a hostage as I get out of the car. He has a history of never letting any live and torture, rape etc. He's trying to escape with a women hostage under his arm. She's a dead person if he gets away with her. His exposer is head-neck. That's the shot. He's jinking sideways. He got a black dot on his nose from the laser Block I was using.
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Last edited by roaniecowpony; 01-11-2017 at 10:51 PM.
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  #150  
Old 01-29-2017, 08:12 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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As I posted some time ago nothing is guaranteed to start a debate like "stopping power" or "one shot stops".

We carry handguns because they are portable. As the old saying goes. "you carry a handgun like an insurance policy. Hoping to never use it but if you do have to you want the best one money can buy."

If I knew I was going to a gunfight tomorrow I would call in sick. If I could not call in sick I would carry a rifle. No one in their right mind knowingly goes to a gunfight with any handgun when they can carry a rifle.

Now with all that said I offer this advice. Having been to many shooting scenes and autopsies of people shot, there is no one clear answer to a deadly force question. Big guys die no less quicker than little guys. Loss of blood in the central nervous system causes the brain to lose the ability to function. Brain shots cause the body parts to lose the ability to receive orders to continue to function.

My sage advice is worth every penny you pay for it. It is parroted from the FBI agent that fired the final rounds in the famous FBI shootout with the two bank robbers that killed and wounded a bunch of FBI agents back in the 80"s. His advice was to "find the pistol that shoots the biggest caliber that you can accurately shoot and carry as much ammo as you can reasonably carry on a day to day basis." This is the man who was wounded and had the use of one arm. He repeatedly fired a shotgun racking it one handed until it was empty. Then he used his pistol to deliver close range head shots on the two creeps who were mortally wounded but trying to drive away.

I have carried a lot of different guns over the years (30+) as a cop. I started out with a revolver! I currently carry a full size 1911 with an eight round magazine in it. I have a bunch of ten round magazines at the ready. I also have a fully automatic M-4 when at work with a bunch of banded together magazines. The M-4 is always my first choice.
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