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Required "Qualification"

6K views 77 replies 32 participants last post by  IslayMalt 
#1 · (Edited)
Whether or not it should be required is discussed extensively in other threads throughout the forum. I'm just curious about the requirements in different states where they do exist and your opinions of those requirements.

For those in states that have a license to carry AND require range time as part of the course, what are the specifics of the range requirements. Do you feel they come close to showing evidence of proficiency with a hand gun?

Texas requires 50 rounds (20 at 3 yards / 20 at 7 yards / 10 at 15 yards) on a B-27 target using the 5-4-3 scoring method. 5 points for inside the 8 ring, 4 points for the 7 ring and 3 points anywhere else on the silhouette. A score of 70% (175 of a possible 250) is needed to get your license.

I think the 3 yard fire should be eliminated for 2 reasons. First this distance only shows that the shooter knows which way to point the muzzle and pull the trigger. Second, unless you are already at a raised pistol stance and ready to fire, you are not likely to get off a shot at this distance before your assailant can close the gap. This, imo, gives a new shooter false confidence that they could use a gun to defend themselves in any situation.

At least 3, and possibly 4, of the 20 people I went through the training with would not have qualified without the 3 yard line fire.

Over all, I think the requirements might demonstrate the shooter's ability to safely handle a gun and not in any way an indication of any level of proficiency.
 
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#2 ·
Such "qualifications" and "training" were a bone thrown to the anti gunners to get shall issue CC passed....

Its been a while, but if I recollect, NC requires 30 round, 20 of which must hit a standard E type silhouette. No time requierments, and I think 7-10y max distance...

Waste of time and unnecessary regulatory burden...
 
#5 ·
In Fla, you have to demonstrate proficiency. When I took the class, everyone had a choice of a revolver in .38 or a compact Semi Auto in 9mm. Your choice. Our instructor made you load the gun, unload then fire 3 rounds into a target that was 5 yards away. Their were 18 people in the class, they all shot at one target, buy the time I shot it was hard to tell where your rounds hit. No score, no points, just the trainers say so, and his signature on the certificate.
 
#10 ·
Ummm...not really. All I had to do was show a DD 214...no live fire or requal required. You should not have to show proficiency for a Constitutional right...that's absurd
 
#6 ·
This is the Nebraska test:

Qualification Course of Fire (Total 30 rounds) – FBI “Q” Target (22" x 34")
*No time limit*

3 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

9 feet - Twelve (12) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. Three repetitions must be from a
concealed draw.

15 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

21 feet - Six (6) rounds
** Two rounds per command to fire. One repetition must be from a
concealed draw.

Proficiency is 70% on the target. Call me an anti-gunner for it, but I think it should be a higher standard. The 1 yard and 3 yard are pretty much guaranteed if you're aiming in the remote direction of the target. That means at 5 yards and 7 yards, between the remaining 12 shots, you only need to hit the target 3 times. None of this being "scored", it just being you hit the body on the target.

I'll just say I was with people in this class that if they were firing in self defense, I wouldn't want to be in the same county, but they still passed with no problem. I believe you should be proficient with a firearm if you're carrying, and tests like ones above don't demonstrate that.
 
#8 ·
You want a "high" standard to execute a Constitutionally enumerated right....? Sure, sounds great. How about requiring "training " and a license to use the internet to exercise 1A rights? Unlicensed possession nof a computer or smart phoneshould of course be a felony.... any "offensive" posts on a forum or social media = Federal felony and 10 years in prison....

Why don't I set the standard...? I'm more than capable; I'm an SOF qualified instructor and certified training developer. Itll cost $500 for a class, and 300÷ rounds, AND I'll guarantee a 90% failure rate...

Egos aside, shooting isn't a pistol isn't a complex, difficult physical skill. The concept of licencing or permitting a "right" is obscene...
 
#7 ·
Here in SoCal my range qual was easy.

However, one student failed & was asked to return on another day after more familiarizing & practice with the gun. Because of poor muzzle control, fumbling, rounds off target.

An obvious hazard to others.

It's clearly not an Accuracy Test as much as it was a Basic Firearm Competency test.

I disagree very much with the idea of eliminating the 3 yard test. A threat "closing the gap" is but one scenario out of many.

Attacks are often Fists-On from the get go. 3 yards is FAR. Students need to be comfortable with shooting at arm's length---- a more likely fighting distance than 15 yards.
 
#9 ·
I don't carry. I'd prefer that you not try to protect me, yourself, or anyone else unless you are proficient. Don't need innocents getting hurt.

I'm not saying don't carry. I'm saying get proficient - then carry. Not because any law or permit requires it. Just because it's right.
 
#14 ·
What's this "subject" thing? We're all subject to the laws of our land. You got a driver's license? Plates on your truck? Quit dissin' me. I never said anything about the state. I'm appealing to your conscience.

Hey, back on topic (more or less) I'm curious if police in the US have to pass and maintain sidearm competency standards? Up here, 31 rounds - 3meters, 5, 7,10 and 15 - one dummy round - all timed. Standard is all hits on the silhouette - no flyers.
 
#15 ·
What's this "subject" thing? We're all subject to the laws of our land. You got a driver's license? Plates on your truck? Quit dissin' me. I never said anything about the state. I'm appealing to your conscience.
Nobody is "dissin' you... its simply a concept you're not familiar with. Nobody has a "right" to drive, anywhere. In the US, we have a Constitutionally enumerated, but often ignored, RIGHT to keep (defined as to own or possess) and bear (to CARRY, on or about ones person) arms.

A "subject " is at the will and whim of government. A "citizen" is protected, by social compact and fundemental rule of law, FROM government.

With regards to. Gun ownership and use, you have NO protection from government; you're a subject... in the US, we have Constitutional protections in this area...
 
#17 ·
The question is who decides what "proficient" is... its either a personal choice, decision, and standard, or its a State mandated requierment. There's really no middle ground.

Its a matter of differnent perspectives. When one is born and raised in a controlled environment, one is much more receptive and susceptible to authority. When one is accustomed to a very free, independent, environment, one is less tolerant of intrusion on personal liberty.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I've been a CCW instructor for over 10 years in ND.

There are 2 CCW options here. Levels 1 & 2.

Level 1: age 21 & older. Shooting is required at 7 yards and 15 yards on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. Shooter must show proficiency right handed, left handed, standing and kneeling. Shooter must draw from concealment shoot/reload/ and shoot again. This process is timed. Class room instruction is mandatory. Written test must be passed with a 100% on the law portion and 70% on the remainder. Permit holder must re-qualify every 5 years. Currently have reciprocity with 39 states.

Level 2: Same written test, with the same passing requirements on the written portion, but permit holder does not have to retest every 5 years. Just need to send in current photo's and payment. No shooting requirements & available to age 18 & older. Reciprocity with 24 states.

Over the years I've seen some really good shooters (every one of those shot Bullseye). And some really bad shooters. As the written test is the same, those who aren't able to pass the shooting portion can always submit their application as a level 2. I urge students to try for the level 1 & if it doesn't work out, the level 2 is always there.

I expect the numbers of level 2 applicants to drop considerably after Aug 1. That's when constitutional carry becomes law in ND. Unfortunately it only applies to ND residents and only within the borders of the state, so if traveling out of state one would still need the permit.

Both my wife & I got our first ones in 1981. At that time it was a 10 question written and 10 rds (with a reload) at 15ft on a b-27 silhouette. Way too easy.

Al
 
#23 ·
This is correct.



And I am quite happy with this the way that it is. We are currently pushing for unrestricted carry here for non felons. A lot depends on what happens in this years Governors race.

We are fortunate enough here in the commonwealth to permit sitting Governors one term only. I am just hoping that we can shoot that demoturd Tim Kaine down in November.
 
#20 ·
Thanks for clarifying that WC. The first time the term was used beside "Stay in Canada" so yeah - I took it as disrespectful intent. I see now that you were not name calling, but referring to an area where I am subject to the restrictions of law that you are not. (Well, not supposed to be anyway).

FWIW, we do have a charter of rights and freedoms in Canada and we consider ourselves very much free citizens of our nation, It does not include the RKBA largely because the majority of Canadians don't want that. Hard to imagine I know, but that's democracy. We defend the rights we chose as vigorously as you defend yours - and ours seem to always be under attack as well.

Magazineman was correct in his interpretation. I don't care if you are even licensed or not. Just please don't start shootin' up the mall unless you can keep damage confined to the bad guy. You know that better than any 'certified' tester. 'least I hope you do.......

Rob!
 
#21 ·
The State of New Mexico requires an initial 15 hour concealed carry course. The State's course requirements include:

The firearms training course shall be not less than fifteen hours in length and shall provide instruction regarding:

(1) knowledge of and safe handling of single- and double-action revolvers and semiautomatic handguns;
(2) safe storage of handguns and child safety;
(3) safe handgun shooting fundamentals;
(4) live shooting of a handgun on a firing range;
(5) identification of ways to develop and maintain handgun shooting skills;
(6) federal, state and local criminal and civil laws pertaining to the purchase, ownership, transportation, use and possession of handguns;
(7) techniques for avoiding a criminal attack and how to control a violent confrontation; and
(8) techniques for nonviolent dispute resolution.
The State then requires a shooting test that consists of:

B. Competency demonstration.
(1) An applicant or licensee shall demonstrate competency in the safe use of each category and highest caliber of handgun for which he or she seeks certification by firing the handgun with live ammunition at a target no larger than 12 inches wide and 18 inches high.
(2) An applicant or licensee shall fire 15 rounds from three yards and 10 rounds from seven yards.
(3) An applicant or licensee shall score 4 points for each shot that hits within the scoring line and zero points for each shot that hits outside the scoring line. An applicant must obtain a score of 72% to pass the competency demonstration.
Beyond that it is up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the person is competent to have a concealed carry license:

C. Determination of competency. An approved instructor shall determine whether or not to issue a certificate of completion based on the applicant or licensee's score on the competency demonstration and the applicant or licensee’s knowledge and understanding of the subjects specified in Subsection A of NMSA 1978 Section 29-19-7.
In order to keep your concealed carry license, you are required to requalify with a shooting test after 2 years. Four years after receiving your concealed carry permit you are required to take a 4 hour refresher course and the shooting test.

The two year and four year requirements continue as long as you have the concealed carry permit. So you are required to prove you are competent with shooting a gun as long as you have a permit.

You are also required to qualify with the type of gun you want to carry - revolver or semi-auto. If you want to be able to carry either type of gun, you have to shoot both types of guns for "determination of competency."

My wife and I take a S&W 625 .45 ACP revolver, and a .45 ACP 1911 to the shooting tests and qualify with both guns. That gives us the ability to carry either a revolver or semi-auto in any caliber up to .45.
 
#25 ·
The State of New Mexico requires an initial 15 hour concealed carry course.

Beyond that it is up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the person is competent to have a concealed carry license:
Am I reading this right? After you take the 15 hour course and pass the "Competency demonstration" the instructor can decide you are not competent and deny you a license. Based on what?
 
#24 · (Edited)
One problem with range qualification requirements is that some folks will show up with the only CCW gun they own... a tiny .25 or .32 automatic. Good luck shooting a passing score on a B-27 target with one of those. A range qualification test should only prove one thing: that the person is familiar with safely operating and firing their chosen defense weapon. The applicant could be an expert marksman on the test yet in the stress of a deadly force encounter still end up missing with every shot.

BTW here in WA there are no qualifications. As long as you have a clean record, just go to your local police precinct, fill out the application, get fingerprinted, pay the fees and wait a few weeks. Done. You could have absolutely no clue how to even load your firearm for all they know.
 
#27 ·
jtq: That could happen somewhere, in theory. But the testing is not used to weed out applicants here in San Diego County. One of the strictest, in a strict state.

We only had one range-test failure in my large class & the student was encouraged to return after gaining at least some basic skill.

The bar to obtaining a CCW is NOT the shooting qual. It's being able to prove documentation of "compelling need" to the satisfaction of the Sheriff's Dept. In my case I had to provide YEARS of verified LARGE cash deposits. They also called my bank to confirm they were legit.

This, combined with the required clean background checks & approval of spouse (really!)

Once you have successfully jumped those hoops, the test/range qualification is pretty much a formality. It's only a barrier for those who could not operate a drill, much less a gun.

And again, washouts are not barred. Just asked to improve & return.

I'm not defending the laws or the process. I am only describing it.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Am I reading this right? After you take the 15 hour course and pass the "Competency demonstration" the instructor can decide you are not competent and deny you a license. Based on what?
This is really about instructor liability and giving them the option, at their discretion, to not qualify someone for a CCP. I know five instructors and the only time I've every heard of someone not getting a CCP is if they do not pass the shooting test.

The instructors that I know have volunteered their time with people who did not pass the shooting test and given them private instruction and retesting so that they passed the shooting portion of the requirement.

I suppose the capricious whim of the instructor, or State that qualifies the instructors, who could give "guidance" to those instructors on who they'd like, or not like to see have a license.
You're fabricating things in order to make it sound like there is a possibility of collusion between the instructors and the state. That's purely conjecture and projection on your part.

In the State of New Mexico, the only interaction the instructors have with the Department of Public Safety directly is in submitting their course materials for approval, and audits by the State to verify that they are keeping the required records. You never even meet with a State representative when getting your approval as a CCP instructor. You fill out the required forms, and send in the forms with your class materials to the appropriate department in the State Department of Public Safety.

They review the course materials and, if the materials meet the State requirements, they send back a form letter of approval with an instructor's certificate that you are registered with the State as a concealed carry instructor. That's how it works in New Mexico - so stop trying to make it out to be more than it is.

Other than that, there is no direction from the State as to who should or shouldn't get a CCP as NM is a "shall issue" State and, if you pass the background investigation and the course - it is required that you are issued the concealed carry permit BY STATE LAW.

One problem with range qualification requirements is that some folks will show up with the only CCW gun they own... a tiny .25 or .32 automatic.
In the State of New Mexico, the gun used for qualification has to be .32 caliber or larger. I've never seen anyone qualify with a gun smaller than a 9mm. The smallest gun I've seen used was a woman who brought a SIG .380 - which is .38 caliber or 9mm short - your choice.

You have to shoot the largest caliber you want to carry as you cannot carry a caliber larger than the one used for qualification. Most people use 9mm, .38, or .45.

You know, the people who are trying to make this out to be some sort of nefarious collusion between the State and the instructors need to know that the right to carry a gun is in THE NEW MEXICO STATE CONSTITUTION. In fact, you can open carry a gun with no license, testing, or permit. So, even if you didn't get a concealed carry permit - you could still legally open carry a gun.

Given THE FACT that you can open carry a gun as part of the State Constitution, it would not benefit the State in anyway to deny someone a concealed carry permit as they can always simply open carry.
 
#31 ·
That's purely conjecture and projection on your part.
You are correct.

Beyond that it is up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the person is competent to have a concealed carry license:
... if you pass the background investigation and the course - it is required that you are issued the concealed carry permit BY STATE LAW.
While I don't live in New Mexico, and don't know all the rules you live by, I suspect both statements cannot be true. I'd guess it is either one or the other, correct?
 
#32 ·
Ohio has a skills requirement for initial issue of the license. A total of 12 hours, including both class and range. Mine ran 8 & 4. I don't believe the course of fire is specified in the regs. We used standard torso targets at 5, 10 and 15 yards for training and I think the "test" was 15 rounds at 10 yards, with a 70% to pass. Renewals don't require refresher training or qualification. I've renewed twice since then, so its a little fuzzy.
 
#34 ·
Ohio has a skills requirement for initial issue of the license. A total of 12 hours, including both class and range. I've renewed twice since then, so its a little fuzzy.
it's changed since you got yours, Neighbor

as of March 23 2015 the course is 8 hours (6 class/2 range)

Maybe semantics now, but the state requires the instructor attest the applicant is "competent", not "skilled"

there's no state specified proficiency standards

..L.T.A.
 
#43 ·
After reading some of the requirements from different states let me add a few things on the Texas LTC. It was changed from CHL (Concealed Handgun License) to LTC (License To Carry) when open carry was passed.

Qualification must be done with a .32 or larger caliber.

At one time the license specified the type of gun authorized. (Revolver or Semiautomatic) That has been changed and now allows the holder to carry any legal hand gun, not just the type gun they qualified with.

There is no requirement for additional classes or qualification to renew a license unless it is allowed to expire. (I'm not sure about the requirements for getting a license reinstated that had been suspended.)
 
#44 ·
As I've opined before, qualification to a standard of performance ought NOT to be a requirement for firearms ownership or CCW.

Rather, in an ideal society, those who are able to demonstrate superior capability or proficiency (however that might be measured) should be rewarded in some manner. ;)
 
#46 ·
One cannot possibly EVER fully define competence. It's just not possible.

So that there are "judgement calls" by professionals is the only way it can be done.

Like when my sister failed her first driving test. She technically made no mistakes, but she did what I had seen her do a million times on her learner's permit.:

She looked left, right, in the top rear-view mirror, left side mirror, right side mirror and pretty much in every direction possible.

But not much looking straight ahead!

So the proctor failed her.

Sure, some Mouse-Milker could argue that looking forward "enough" needs to be defined in a seconds-per minute ratio, as verified by dash-cam but that's absurd.

The pro made the call. The right one. She had a bad, undefinable habit that needed correction.
 
#49 ·
One cannot possibly EVER fully define competence. It's just not possible.

So that there are "judgement calls" by professionals is the only way it can be done.
You can easily define "competence" in a physical skill. How much value the term has is dependent upon how clearly a standard is defined, and how challenging the requierments are. For example, I can tell you exactly how the army defines "competent" with an M4; most LEOs can tell you how their agencies define duty weapons"competence "- theres clearly defined quanification standards. One either passes or one fails...

When it comes to "judgment calls" on more subjective skills or products, a "professional " will have a rubric or similar tool. 10 evaluators can observe the same student at the same time, and the scores will be within a couple percentage points... if not, either the tool is broken or the evaluators suck...
 
#50 ·
wccountryboy. Not sure if we disagree or not, but here's my point:

Sis failed her driving test because of a reason not defined directly by law.

It was for bad technique that, although causing no problems during her test, was clearly not safe practice to an observer.

Similar to part of why the student in my first CCW class failed. Even if correct accuracy had been achieved, failure was inevitable because of potentially dangerous fumbling + an painfully obvious unfamiliarity with guns.

This was clearly the student's first shooting experience or , if not, ZERO was learned in the past.

The instructor made the right call. Even if it could not have been articulated on a paper checklist.

If this cat could have put a mag through a quarter at 100 yards I still would not want to be anywhere nearby. I'd hide in a bunker.
 
#52 ·
Im not sure either...

I would suggest that a "paper checklist" absolute can, consider both your sister's shortcomings during her exam and the unsure gun handling your witnessed- in a clearly attributable and quantifiable manner, to such a point that the student knows what the expectations are before starting an evaluated event, and to such a degree that multiple evaluators, with the proper training and experiance, will identity the same flaws to the same degree, and quantifiably score the event almost identically.

I teach graduate level academics to prospective SOF soldiers. We also teach many concepts and skills that are very "subjective". With well designed tools, those subjective events can be evaluated in a quantifiable, and repeatable, manner. Such tools are also used for some of the academics, such as papers. 10 of my peers can read and grade the same paper, and each score will be within a 2% spread, most likely 1%. Its a combination of well designed tools and actual, trained, and assessed, PROFESSIONAL cadre. I would hesitate to call the vast majority of CC "instructors " "professionals".

In a simplistic outline, each subjective event is broken into incusive subtasks. Each subtask has defined performance standards, with a value attatched to different levels of performance. A 0 in a subtask is a fail. A 1 is "marginally" achieved the required standard. A 2 is an "achieved standard" and an 3 would be "exceeds expectations". ANY zero in a subtask is a fail for the event, regardless of overall score. Outside of that, a MINIMUM of 1s across the board are required. Additional, each student gets multiple (3+) looks in each event. An average of 1.75 is the required passing score. We're not looking for "marginal"...

The point of all of this is that "competent" CAN be defined and quantified. How that competence is respected and percieved is dependent upon how that competence is defined and evaluated.
 
#56 ·
I'll take "shall issue" any way I can get it. There's nothing more ridiculous than having to show documentation proving that you "need" to have a carry permit. Waiting until the day somebody attacks you getting out of your car at night is a little late to be thinking about applying for a carry permit.
 
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