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3.5" versus 4.25" 1911 Ballistics

6K views 37 replies 24 participants last post by  chrysanthemum 
#1 ·
So I hunkered down and bought what I thought was a 4.25" Republic Forge. Beautiful pistol. All hard blue with ivory grips. I mean, nice. However, I get home drooling over it an pull the barrel. Damned thing is 3.5" versus 4.25". The gun shop, who've I've done a ton of business with, says "so sorry, no returns". This is within 2 hours of purchase. I've done a bunch of business with these guys, but fine. They've lost me as a customer. That said, I start doing some research and am starting to wonder just how much of an issue this really is. What I think I'm reading is that .45 ammo, particularly +p, is so fast burning its unlikely I'll loose less than 5% muzzle velocity. One article I read actually stated that the decreased velocity would cause the .45 round improve expansion and penetration. That's news to me, but I know just the guys who to ask! Excluding the gun shop issue, do the points on ballistics make sense to any of you guys? I'd appreciate your views.
 
#2 ·
#3 ·
It's gonna be fine, it's only like 50 fps less with the rounds I prefer. Checked in my dad's 3.5 Kimber vs my Wilson 4 inch.


It's not a 9mm gun if that what you are thinking. .45 cal stuff doesn't gain or lose much from barrel length, look at a .45 UZI 16 inch vs a 5 inch 1911. Literally only 150 extra FPS.
 
#4 ·
You can do the adjustment.

Simply decide to be okay with it. Therefore adjusting your take on the situation.

The difference in velocity is negligible. You could probably make up the tiny difference with hotter rounds anyhow. No big deal.

Btw, I used to work with a guy who had to have The Best of everything. And that "everything" had to be in flawless condition at all times.

His shop looked like a laboratory clean room. His house was flawless. His bikes & cars were spotless, not a stray molecule lying about anywhere. He would trade in a car because the newer model had 10 more horsepower.

He was the most miserable man in the office. He just could never allow himself to be fully satisfied.

I know you aren't like that guy, but deciding to be cool with things as they are takes a ton of stress off your life.

I draw the line here: I like my stuff to function fairly close to how it was designed to. And be clean enough to not get me dirty when I use it.

And if it's an antique I don't mind it showing some wear because that's appropriate for old stuff.

This keeps me happier than chasing perfection or trying to attain the best of the best.
 
#7 ·
Some barrels may have tighter chambers than others, so you will never know the exact velocity until you chronograph your ammo out of your gun......

It is surprising that some barrels of the same length may shoot 40-50 fps than another.....
^^this^^

been my experience as well
I have one 3" barrel pistol that chrono's 810 fps average with premium 230gr SD ammo
While another chrono's close to 850 fps

and please don't take offense if I ask, you are measuring the barrel correctly?
all the way to the end of chamber is included in the length

seems odd you'd order a pistol from a hi-end manufacture (or at least represents themselves as such) and get the wrong one.

Unless the gun shop ordered it for you ...and was clueless
and if not a CCO model, it's pretty easy to distinguish a Commander from an Officers model at a glance


..L.T.A.
 
#6 ·
I always felt that 4 " was the cut off of what you would then call a short barrel.
3" and 3.5" barrel may not have enough runway to get a hollowpoint round up to speed to expand a hollowpoint completely.
There are rounds made special to work with the short barrels.
Going +P just adds more recoil to the mix so you still want Non plus P ammo..
Rounds that come to mind are Speer 230 gr. Gold Dot ( Short Barrel)
This round is differant from their standard gold dot 230.
Corbon 185gr. and 165 gr. DPX
Hornady 185 gr. critical defense.
 
#8 ·
Just shoot the thing and enjoy it. If it is a carry gun, practice with it. Chances are, unless you are LEO, you will never use the gun in anger anyway. A 9mm needs to expand to about .45" to be effective, a 45 is already there.
I alternate carry guns all the time and have no trouble distinguishing my Kimber Ultra from my DW Vbob or my SR1911. You should have seen this the moment you saw the gun in the case.
 
#9 ·
I'd expect the difference between 3.5" and 4.25" to be 20-40fps, depending on the load.
The only time I've done back-to-back testing, same day, of a single load through two different guns, it was a 230JHP that went 850 from 3.5" and 900 from 5".
If velocity is important, choose one of the "short-barrel loads" available, and be happy.
One of the reasons I prefer .45 is because it's not dependent on velocity for effectiveness.
 
#15 ·
If a person shot them side by side at say seven yards, would he really be able to tell a velocity difference? I carry a 3.3 inch almost daily with 185 grain hollow points it likes, If I ever have to use it, it will probably be close and 50 fps or so won't even come into my mind at that time. I would say, take it out, shoot the hell out of it till you trust it, find out what ammo it likes, and enjoy it!
 
#25 ·
Besides that the OP has described an impossible scenario (a 3.5" barrel in a commander slide), I thought the concern about 3.5" barrels vs. commander and gov't barrels was reliability, no? I seem to have read in numerous locations that some folks consider 4.25" to be the bare minimum for reliable .45 1911 function. I'm surprised no one has brought that issue up.
 
#26 · (Edited)
3" 1911s can be reliable and many are. But many people have also given them up in frustration.

The 1911 was designed around a 5" slide and as 1911s get shorter than 5", reliability tends to become more compromised.

To a great degree, it's the shorter slide's cycling rate (faster cycling) that often challenges the magazine's ability to keep up supplying rounds with the same faster timing that can be a problem. Manufacturers have worked hard to adjust specifications to make 3", 3.5" and 4" 1911s run reliably, but there are many industry professionals who would not choose to rely on a 1911 that is shorter than the 4.25" Commander for defense. I've seen enough issues with even Commander length pistols having bolt-over-base jams due to magazines not keeping up with slide speed. Magazines (and their spring strength, specifically) can be a critical factor, especially with the hottest defense loads (Winchester 230 gr Ranger) and this becomes increasingly evident as slide length gets ever shorter than 4.25".

As always, choose your weapons wisely, and take your chances.
 
#29 ·
1911 short slides and reliability....

Slide velocity is an important variable to make a gun run/cycle properly.....

I've seen enough issues with even Commander length pistols having bolt-over-base jams due to magazines not keeping up with slide speed. Magazines (and their spring strength, specifically) can be a critical factor, especially with the hottest defense loads
I have always advocated that the springs used in a 1911 need to be adjusted for the power of the load used. I built my EDC gun which is a 1911 Commander with a Bar Sto bull barrel and I use .38 super +P+ loads that average approx. 1350 fps from the muzzle with my 125 gr. Speer Gold Dot bullets. During my initial testing of the gun, the fired cases were ejecting about 8-10 ft. from the gun. This meant I had very fast slide velocity, and I wanted the cases to eject about 4-6' from the gun with the hot loads I used.
I changed the main spring to a 25lb. vs. the standard 23lb., then used a Commander length 16" recoil spring.....the cases then ejected to the desired 4'-6' away from the gun when fired with my hot self defense loads. I tested the gun thoroughly with my hot loads, and it has been extremely reliable and very accurate with 10.7 gr. of AA#7 powder......the sights track very well too! If I tried using standard .38 super ammo purchased off the shelf, I don't believe the gun would function with the heavy springs I use.....however, I only use my hot self defense loads in this gun for range practice or for concealed carry.....
 
#33 · (Edited)
Slide velocity is an important variable to make a gun run/cycle properly.....

I have always advocated that the springs used in a 1911 need to be adjusted for the power of the load used. I built my EDC gun which is a 1911 Commander with a Bar Sto bull barrel and I use .38 super +P+ loads that average approx. 1350 fps from the muzzle with my 125 gr. Speer Gold Dot bullets. During my initial testing of the gun, the fired cases were ejecting about 8-10 ft. from the gun. This meant I had very fast slide velocity, and I wanted the cases to eject about 4-6' from the gun with the hot loads I used.
I changed the main spring to a 25lb. vs. the standard 23lb., then used a Commander length 16" recoil spring.....the cases then ejected to the desired 4'-6' away from the gun when fired with my hot self defense loads. I tested the gun thoroughly with my hot loads, and it has been extremely reliable and very accurate with 10.7 gr. of AA#7 powder......the sights track very well too! If I tried using standard .38 super ammo purchased off the shelf, I don't believe the gun would function with the heavy springs I use.....however, I only use my hot self defense loads in this gun for range practice or for concealed carry.....
Yes, hotter than standard loads, particularly in shorter-than 5" 1911s, often require some changes to specifications. With short 1911s and heavy loads some or all of the following will adjust timing of the slide cycle rate to the magazine delivery rate:

-flat bottom FPS (retards slide speed and scrubs some energy)
-stronger mag spring (speeds delivery of rounds)
-heavier main spring (aka hammer spring - retards slide speed)
-weaker recoil spring (slower return to battery of the slide than with a heavier spring)
-185 gr bullets (easier for magazine spring to raise up the weight than with 230 gr. Bullets)

I have very successfully employed a combination of some or all of the first four of these to correct bolt-over-base jams in Commanders and Compact 1911s. Bill Wilson employs the last of those measures in his personal carry compact .45auto 1911s (and one or more of the first four).
 
#38 · (Edited)
A strange thread ... more accurately, a strange story. Guess I just stumbled into it and became curious. But I wouldn't assert anything beyond "strange", as "stuff happens".

Leaves behind as many uncertainties as answers, such as the "3.5' barrel in a Commander slide" (which seems a big stretch as to plausibility ... but I've been wrong before on odd things). If the OP doesn't return, probably best to conclude this thread.
 
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