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Gun vs. knife redux

3K views 40 replies 18 participants last post by  OIF2 
#1 ·
Looks like two Seattle police officers are in hot water after shooting dead a mentally ill woman armed with a knife this past weekend. As usual the public is in an uproar and demanding to know why two cops couldn't take on a 120lb female without resorting to using their firearms. The police union official here just tried to explain to the media what we know as the Tueller Drill, but he didn't say it in a very convincing fashion. As usual it appears it's an uphill battle to convince the general public that a person bringing a knife to a gun fight can still win if they're close enough, regardless how small and seemingly weak they are.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/sea...icers-are-trained-for-knife-attacks/451073680
 
#2 ·
Its probably more of the liberal nature of the Pacific Northwest in addition to a poor remarks by the union official.

From all my training its been taught and pretty much an accepted response to meet deadly force with deadly force. I never was paid anywhere near enough to go hands on to remove a knife from someone; although we did receive training in defending against a knife attack...
 
#4 ·
Its probably more of the liberal nature of the Pacific Northwest in addition to a poor remarks by the union official.
There are a very large number of good, conservative, pro 2A folks in the PNW. But with that said the amount and depth of liberal stupidity that exists in and around Seattle is simply staggering. I find it astounding that anyone could expect a civil servant who makes around $60K a year to take on a person armed with a knife in a hand to hand type fashion...even with others their to help. People are just incredibly dumb and have been watching entirely too much television. Where do you even begin trying to educate people this stupid?
 
#3 ·
Well fortunately when these things end up in court a jury can usually be convinced, just like the notion that you can simply shoot to wound is a fallacy that rarely stands up to scrutiny as well. Unfortunately we live in a society where people are often tried by the general public before they ever get their day in court, and the ignorance of the average citizen is appalling especially when it comes to police encounters.
 
#13 ·
I recall a few times on here where members of this very forum have whined and cried about how the cops didn't just, "disarm" the fellow and that also included and incident where four LEOs in Belleville New Jersey, put 24 out of 30 rounds (80% of their rounds hit) into an animal who had a history of domestic abuse and at least one charge of assaulting an officer when he lunged at them with two knives. People on here went all armchair quarterback as they dithered on about how cops "back-in-the-day" would have disarmed the fellow and how they must be horrible shots since they shot thirty times (they missed the bit in the article where it said that they hit 24 of those 30 times, or they just suck at math). People are incredibly ignorant of how dangerous an attacker with a knife can be.
 
#5 ·
Maybe a little forced public education is in order...

Any one of the libs who criticized the cops' action in this case should be put up against a knife-wielding community member, two-on-one as the police had to, and be forced to demonstrate their edged weapon take-away, just like the police should have done it if the libs had their say in the encounter.

Once they have demonstrated their procedure, then they can either teach or criticize others. This would have the added benefit of thinning the herd a bit, as well as teaching the idiots to STFU when they know not of what they spew.
 
#7 ·
Why didn't the cops just simply do a flying & spinning karate kick, knocking the knife from her hand, without injury, before she could blink?

Then land in a poised tiger crouch, one hand on the ground? Then maybe a witty remark like "Didn't your momma teach you about playing with knives, Missy"?

Seattle clearly needs better screen writers.
 
#8 ·
There was a story out of Germany where the police had to shoot a knife-wielding suspect, and one of the local politicians was critical and asked why they couldn't have disarmed him or merely wounded him instead. The police commissioner replied saying that his cops can't simply use Kung Fu on people and that trying to wound can easily mean a slow death or injury to the cops instead.

So yes, there are ignoramuses in government over there as well.
 
#9 ·
When screwing around at the office (Realtors, on commission not wage or salary) we did the 21 foot drill. Rubber band shooting Vs. dry erase marker dagger.

With a cocked rubber band at the low ready we could all hit the Marker Man before he closed the gap.

However, the Cocked Low Ready was key. Any fumbling needed with that band & we all would have had needed some dry cleaning.

And of course, shooting a knifeman with a bullet just means he's hit. It does not mean he's stopped.
 
#11 ·
Disparity of force is often misunderstood & poorly explained. They need Massad Ayoob to explain it to the jury. Large attackers, multiple attackers, clubs, knives, bottle, rocks-all can be and have been deadly to civilians & officers.

The other problem is media who show an unreslistic picture of what happens when someone is shot with a handgun - one shot stops are not that common.

If one of my children was an officer in liberal State or Cities , I would be extremely concerned. Living there would be troubling, being a LEO even more so.
This is what we've come to.

In many places the BGs are winning the war - just look at ****cago as a prime example.
Ret
 
#12 ·
Stupidity like this is not isolated to west coast. I can remember when the female mayor of a village in my county wanted to disarm her police force "because there is no reason for them to be armed".

She did not get her way.
 
#14 ·
I watch stuff on youtube all the time. From animal vids, cars, remodeling, you name it.

That includes self-defense type videos. From security cameras.

The knife attacks are horrendous. Blood everywhere.

Anyone doubting the lethality of a knife attack should see 10 of them on tape.

They WILL change their mind.
 
#15 ·
I was on a boarding team in the Coast Guard and we decided to test the 21 foot rule on the flight deck one day. We had a group of guys on one side of the flight deck about 21 feet away with one of them (unknown which one) was armed with a hidden knife. The active officer had his pistol holstered (after checking about 5 times to make sure it was empty without a magazine) and was monitoring the small group. At a random time, the knife wielder would charge as quickly as he could and the officer had to respond with a draw and at least look like he was on target with a fired shot (Beretta M9, you can hear the D/A click). The knife (plastic knife) wielder often "tagged" the officer before a shot was released...especially if he didn't move "off the tracks". A fast person with a knife will very often beat a slow drawing response...and that's when you know a charge is coming.
 
#16 ·
Don't forget that in your scenario that this involved a person who was ready and expecting such an attack. I can have my Emerson out and be on someone in a flash without any warning. Even a trained individual is pretty screwed if they don't see it coming.
 
#17 ·
Kodadek, you didn't read the very last line of my post which shows I acknowledge that the person knew the attack was coming.

You're right, a response takes longer when you don't know the attack is coming.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Apologies. The woman was talking to me about wanting a vacation somewhere I have no intention of ever going so I half phased out between this thread and her plans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjMpn7JCJ0&t=527s

Here's the video I alluded to earlier. Doug Macraida. No idea who the bearded guy is, but it's interesting to watch them "work" on the problem while clearly enjoying themselves.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I did more then one or Boardings when I was in the Coast Guard - and many face to face "interviews" while as a Customs and Border Protection Officer on the Northern Border.

I can assure you that unless the attacker is a nut case - it isn't going to happen starting from 21' or 30'; its going to happen up close and personal enough to smell the bad guy's breath...

During all the LE Training I've ever had - Rule Number One is to control the hands....control the hands. I can't remember how many times an instructor stressed "the hands will kill you." Of course this is difficult for someone in a non-law enforcement encounter. Imagine telling the person who just clipped your car in a parking lot and getting in your face - pardon me sir, please keep your hands where I can see them! At least as a LEO you could have some control over that.

Several months ago there was a video, by a professed "skilled" martial artist who demonstrated a foolproof method to defend against a knife attacker - when the bad guy pulled the knife, the "victim" executed a swift about face and ran! Funny, but it made sense!
 
#20 ·
You should find that video for us because it sounds like a hoot. But yes, the reality is that a sane person coming at you with a knife isn't going to brandish it from 21 feet away unless he's really stupid and since I think of stupidity as a mental condition...he isn't sane anyhow.
 
#22 · (Edited)
cwo4, you're right. I was with TACLET North for 2 years and boardings are up close and personal. We had been told about the 21 foot rule and wanted to test it out. We found out real quick that 21 feet isn't enough, even if you know the attack is coming. Anything inside of that further exacerbates the problem until if you are at a boarding distance, the only way you can have an advantage against an attacker with a knife is if you already have your gun drawn which isn't really acceptable unless you can articulate a good reason.

Unfortunately, the general public knows none of this and believes, incorrectly, that a gun against a knife is excessive force and unjustifiable. A jury will hear the case and hopefully become educated enough to make the right decision. Also unfortunately, this type of scenario will continue because there is no way to educate the entire general public about a gun versus a knife.

As a side note, Kodakek, it is best not to ignore the wife when she is talking about a vacation, even if you have no intention of going where she wants. That is a boatload of trouble heading your way... Also, the bearded guy with Marcaida is Instructor Zero, I think.

I wanna see that video of the dude running away too. I'll bet it's pretty funny. Not a good strategy for police though.
 
#23 ·
I didn't ignore her. I just try to drown her out when she decides to bring up new issues or ideas while I'm busy with things. Trust me, it's a survival skill I've picked up.

What's an Instructor Zero? Sounds familiar. Think Mat Best mocked him in his tacticool video, along with a few others like James "Runaway" Yeager and Chris Coastguard. Is he some type of meatball loser?
 
#24 ·
That's the name he uses. Not sure of his credentials, but he's got skills. Look'em up on youtube.
 
#25 ·
Will do. I don't think a fellow has to be a tatted up Delta or SEAL veteran to be a good instructor or have some knowledge...but that said, I see a lot of these cult of personality types (Yeager, Yankee Marshal, etc...) and it's soured me to a lot of YouTube gun personalities.

Back to the subject of knives at close range: I've demonstrated numerous times to multiple soldiers now just how fast someone with a knife can come at them during MOUT training while playing OPFOR (I'm quite the professional terrorist apparently) with one of my trainers. Great way to make them think dynamically.
 
#26 ·
The only good news about someone attacking you with a knife is that it requires a lot of training with a knife to be really effective with it. Yeah, your gonna get cut or maybe even stabbed but the fact is, in most cases, the knife will be pretty dull and the wielder probably won't be able to generate the power needed for a fatal slash or even deep penetration.
Now, any form of knife wound can be dangerous and detrimental to your health and well being and it is vitally important to seek proper care. Slashes or cuts can get infected really easily and penetrating stab wounds to the abdomen or chest area need immediate hospital care.
 
#27 ·
I disagree. Knife-fighting against an armed person is a skill.

But I don't think stabbing an unarmed person to death requires any training at all.

Out of the over 1500 people killed with edged weapons in the US last year, how many had training?

Probably none. Or nearly none.

If someone has really strong intent to stab someone to death I think they will. Easier than changing a tire.
 
#28 ·
Even if the victim of the attack is skilled, a person armed with a knife trained or untrained can do a lot of damage. One of the big rules of getting attacked with a knife is that you're going to get cut. Knew a SFC back in the day who had a really nasty scar on his left forearm...this little man was skilled in a few forms of bladecraft, also knew a thing or two about judo, and he was attacked in the Stan by a fellow wielding a knife (really clumsily in his words) and he didn't have time to bring his M4 up due to the range so he went for his own knife (his favorite knife was the Ka-Bar TDI). Despite a much higher level of training then his assailant he still took a slash to the arm.

"It was only 42 stitches," I remember him telling us without a trace of irony or false humility. This was a man who could take down soldiers twice his size and move like quicksilver with a blade, and he still got cut by what he felt was a complete and utter novice. A guy coming at you and lunging and slashing with a knife: no matter his skill or your own is a pretty real threat.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I have personal knowledge / training of edged weapons .
And most dangerous thing is to believe you can handle someone with a knife with bare hands unless really being an expert fighter .

You will get cut , severity depends of the sharpness of the knife / area of hit .

Unless you can grab a stick , chair or something like that , do not do hero tricks .
Another option is to toss anything avail on him while backing for distance before you can do 180 turn and accelerate to mach three .

F

Ooppss , sorry Kodadek . i didn't read the thread's last page before posting .
Completely agree with you.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Ah, thanks chief...that was magical. :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Finco: It's all good. Just reinforces my point. I know a few things about handling a knife and grappling but I'm not expert. I've learned a few pointers from experts and I'm actually starting up Kali and Silat at the end of the month to enhance those skills (First week free to anyone in the Twin-Cities metro area). I don't believe in hero nonsense whatsoever and I remember reading W.E. Fairbairn's all in fighting as a boy where he was very keen on using improvised weapons (man even had a statistical analysis of your chances of success) like chairs, sticks, etc...

Shouldn't criminals, intent upon great bodily injury to ANYONE be shot down like the POS dogs they are?

Clearly Trump's "message" to the scum of this world - and to the milquetoasts, needs to get out! If some scumbag wants to brandish a knife and make a run on the cops they SHOULD be shot down like the vermin scum they are! I say, shoot them and shoot them, and shoot them, and shoot them...pump they ass FULL of bullets!

Thankfully the use of bodycams will reveal more evidence that the SCUM cops must deal with all had it coming!!!
A) While I fully favor the officers shooting an attacker with a knife, I'm quite certain that the president and his "message" doesn't set mandates involving lethal force for police officers. It certainly should not what with checks and balances and my extreme dislike for jingoism (not to be confused with nationalism which is not at all evil...Gandhi was a nationalist, so was Abraham Lincoln as a matter of fact).

B) Depends on the situation and the context. A mentally disturbed person charging from let us say 20-30 feet can likely be subdued with a taser (perhaps not, drugs and insanity can help a person fight through the pain threshold) and I cannot truly see a mentally deranged individual as scum. That said, in this instance the officer would be correct in whatever choice he made as he is the one on the ground. Whereas it would be preferable to see the mentally ill not be shot, it is even more preferable that officer's go home to their families. This leads to a sort of paradox at the end of the day, but nothing really gets to be black and white does it.

C) The bodycams in New York aren't even working correctly. I think it will be easier for smaller municipalities to implement such devices than something as cumbersome as the NYPD. The other issue is that the cameras are not always on. They are to be turned on in life threatening scenarios or during the performance of an officer's duties (stops, calls, etc...), the issue there is that violent situations happen organically. They are seldom structured, metered out, and/or telegraphed. In a world on randomness, how is an officer to have time to turn on his or her body cam? Nifty idea but until they find a better means of implementation it will be fairly worthless.
 
#31 ·
Shouldn't criminals, intent upon great bodily injury to ANYONE be shot down like the POS dogs they are?

Clearly Trump's "message" to the scum of this world - and to the milquetoasts, needs to get out! If some scumbag wants to brandish a knife and make a run on the cops they SHOULD be shot down like the vermin scum they are! I say, shoot them and shoot them, and shoot them, and shoot them...pump they ass FULL of bullets!

Thankfully the use of bodycams will reveal more evidence that the SCUM cops must deal with all had it coming!!!
 
#33 · (Edited)
And here a classic example about gun vs. knife.

Moros .

When in full fighting frenzy and running amok , how much firepower was needed to take one down ?
Sometimes even a full wheel from .38 sixshooter did not get the job done .
12-gauge 1897 buckshot blast was adequate .
For a handgun , 1911 was what doctor prescribed for the job .

Adapted to nowadays ... that mentally unbalanced attacker in full frenzy and cares no consenquences can be a tough bite to chew even with a gun save bare hands .

Example 2 ; barfight against knives .

The Millwall guy in London , who attacked those three terrorists armed with knives .
He lived , made them run but had enough cuts to end up in IC unit.
Articles did not say did he give them a chair or what but must say , that man was brave as hell.

F
 
#35 ·
I've not studied the case but have a Monday morning quarterback comment. If procedure requires shooting every person who threatens with a knife, then does this this tactic dictate shooting a 10 year old kid or an 85year old grandmother who presents a knife? If so, then it allows zero officer discretion permitting tazing or other non lethal force. And, yes, I am fully aware of the 21 foot charge with a knife possibility by a younger and/or athletic person.
 
#36 ·
lowball - one of the Judgmental Pistol Video used in the 80s had several scenarios using the same person with different results. One, a 12 year old boy on a bicycle, turns and waves at you - the other he turns, with revolver and shoots. Your choice? Shoot or not.

I've said it before and will say it again: unless someone is completely whacked, a knife attacker isn't going to start from 21-30 feet away with a knife in hand charging at you. You can defend against this by creating space and distance - moving off-line - the trouble is unless you've trained to do that you'll likely freeze. The knife attacker will most likely be in an up close and in your face distance. There are defense tactics to counter that as well but proper training on how to do this is necessary.

Will an 85 year old attack a police officer with a knife? Domestic Violence calls are usually a police officer's worst nightmare. Despite a woman being beaten half to death by her significant other once the husband is handcuffed the woman sometimes do attack the police...
 
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