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  #1  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:39 AM
GWB GWB is offline
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6.5 creed accuracy

How does Hornady get such great accuracy out of a factory load thats so far off the lands (at least in my gun). After extensive measuring on the holy grail 140 eldm and seeing the average coal of 2.810 it amazes me that most pros use the method of jamming the lands or 1-2 thou off in most cases to try to achieve there best accuracy.I understand all rifles are diff and the custom barrels are way diff than off the shelf stock ,but the theory has always been get as close as you can for less jump and better accuracy. I find in my gun that stock Hornady load is 35k off my lands.They do group about 3/4 moa. at 100yrd. I know that is not over the top but pretty darn good since its just a stock Ruger off the shelf with no modifications. I am doing some early testing to see if I can replicate there load, and will be stretching it out safely as much a possible to see what happens.Any thoughts on there secret formula for the 6.5 Creed .
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:06 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Im just guessing here but the 6.5 is a pretty long bullet, and I theorize that the amount it moves out of the case its still perfectly square to the case mouth with lots of case support when it hits the rifling and is pretty far into the rifling by the time the bullet separates from the case. This tells me that the 6.5 is not as sensitive to being loaded off the lands like some other bullets. The most accurate 6.5 ammo I have found is S&B Tactical 140gr. Even better than the Hornady 140ELDM. Thats in my Bergera HMR.
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Old 03-29-2019, 09:07 AM
jmorris jmorris is online now
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No “secret” really. A number of firearms, in a number of chamberings are guaranteed to shoot sub MOA with “premium” factory ammunition.

Factory rifles are often “generous” in their chambers and lead to allow for the tolerances between different manufacturers ammunition.

Take a look at a custom benchrest rifle and they often have chambers with undersized necks, so the brass must be turned to fit and various other things that might make them “load specific” or where factory ammunition, if available, won’t all work, sometimes none would. That said they are going for the smallest one hole group to win like .1, .2 aggregate. Even then you might have a guy shooting ammunition that would be better in a tunnel, loose to another guy that’s better at reading the wind.

They would consider 3/4” at 100 yards, uncompetitive. So everything is relative. One thing it does tell us is that we don’t need a lot of tedious hand work to load ammunition that will shoot sub MOA as the factories can churn them out by the thousands an hour, just depends on how far we want to go.
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Old 03-29-2019, 11:28 AM
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Well was gonna go to the range this weekend and do some testing , BUT this Ohio weather sucks and it does not look good! I strongly feel I should at least be able to improve down to 1/2 moa. for now no problem.
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Old 03-30-2019, 07:55 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Hand loading 1/2 Moa should be achievable if you do your part. My son who lives in Alaska just got a Browning X-Bolt Hells Canyon Speed McMillan in 6.5 CM. He had his first range session with it yesterday and called me and said he loved the rifle but was only able to get 3" groupings at 200 yds. After a whole bunch of suggestions on getting better accuracy he sends me a picture of his 3" group.......it was 40 rounds into 3". Geez
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:22 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is online now
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To echo Mr Morris, 3/4 moa at 100 yards is truly uncompetitive.
Lots of factory offerings will do that out of a descent rifle. Hornady is good, but nowhere near what can be accomplished with a custom load for a specific gun. Minute of gnats azz at 400 yards is worth talking about.
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:36 AM
Rowlf Rowlf is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
To echo Mr Morris, 3/4 moa at 100 yards is truly uncompetitive.
Lots of factory offerings will do that out of a descent rifle. Hornady is good, but nowhere near what can be accomplished with a custom load for a specific gun. Minute of gnats azz at 400 yards is worth talking about.
In my research into High Power and Service Rifle competition I have seen mentioned that 100 yard groups don't indicate much for rifle/loads meant to be competitive for 600/1000 yards. Similar to pistol loads being good at 25 yards and not grouping at 50 yards.
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Old 04-01-2019, 07:20 AM
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This is true........and I doubt that ANY 1000 meter shooters are using store bought cartridges. By the same token, 50 yard pistol champions donít either. You load for the application, store bought loads for the average and accommodates all chambers (most) and therefore become a one size fits all compromise.
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  #9  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:45 AM
Mike0251 Mike0251 is offline
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I have had excellent results with factory Hornady 140g ELD Match 6.5 CM!
Factory ammo jump in my rifle = .028", 2666 FPS
Rifle: RPR 6.5 CM
Glass: NF NXS 5.5-22 x 56
Factory ammo results: 5/16 MOA (100 yards) one hole, 1000 yards on 14" steel no problem. I can see the hits with that scope clearly too.

My reload development: Goal was to at least to achieve factory accuracy.
I started my powder weight at 40.5gr of H4350 which yielded 2614 FPS and a best MOA of 1/2" with a .028" jump. My feelings on this were the FPS could come up a bit more closer to the factory FPS. Note that I had jumps of .010, .020, and .028 for this load.

Next I upped the powder charge to 41.5gr which brought the FPS up to 2677 FPS at .021 jump and this yielded another 1/2" MOA but not quite as tight as the slower round. So I pondered my results for several days as I have a written journal going with all the data and actual targets.

What I seemed to have found was that .015-.021 looked like the best jump overall (factory rounds come in around .028) and that the faster bullet did not yield better results. I decided to drop the charge weight back slightly and load 10 more rounds at .015 and .021 jump.

So here is where I am to date, .015 and .021 jump, 41.2gr H4350, 140gr Hornady ELD Match bullet, brass is once fired from my rifle, full sized with Forster die, a Sinclair ball expander die with a neck tension of .002", and brass trimmed to 1.910".
5 round groups fired, if you take out the one round that drifted slightly, more than likely do to my finger, breathing, heart rate, or something, the group size came in at 1/4" MOA! I have not chronographed these rounds yet and is on my to do list. I think I am almost there and will load up 20 more at .015 and this recipe.

Note the scope is zeroed for the factory ammo so I am not readjusting the scope yet. Looking primarily for group size.
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  #10  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:02 AM
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Mike that is right on par with what I have done for load development,almost exactly my work ups though I haven't had the chance to test yet , however we did test some factory with a sled and saw that the factory loads where more around the 1/4 in. moa. maybe a hair higher. And to another point I do know some long range comp guys that do use the factory loads.Its early for me but I want to at least replicate factory or improve on it some, as a member stated 100yrd groups do not mean much when your actually looking for 700-1000 yards.
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Old 04-01-2019, 04:41 PM
kimberguy2004 kimberguy2004 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
To echo Mr Morris, 3/4 moa at 100 yards is truly uncompetitive.
Lots of factory offerings will do that out of a descent rifle. Hornady is good, but nowhere near what can be accomplished with a custom load for a specific gun. Minute of gnats azz at 400 yards is worth talking about.
Agree. Rifle manufacturers chamber to SAAMI specs. Ammo manufacturers mke ammo to SAMMI specs. This equates to +/- tolerances. They do it so any ammo off the shelf will function in any firearm chambered for it. You can call it Premium, Match, or whatever you want. Off the shelf ammo is not going to perform the same as rounds loaded for a specific chamber. Powder charge and seating depth are too critical.
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Old 04-01-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
This is true........and I doubt that ANY 1000 meter shooters are using store bought cartridges. By the same token, 50 yard pistol champions donít either. You load for the application, store bought loads for the average and accommodates all chambers (most) and therefore become a one size fits all compromise.
The AMU and All Guard pistol teams use factory ammo at 50 yards. I'm not sure when the rifle teams transition from factory ammo to shop loads. The rifle teams have stated they can't load for individual rifles.
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:46 AM
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AMU and All Guard are supplied with gobs of what they are told to shoot. You can bet that any sponsored professional is not buying his ammo from WalMart if he isnít loading his own. They are being supplied with the pick of the litter. Iím not sure about the reasoning behind the AMU saying they canít load for individual rifles? 600+ BR shooters are weighing their loads to the individual granule of powder. You wonít even be on the same paper with them if you are grabbing a handful of palletized ammo.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GWB View Post
How does Hornady get such great accuracy out of a factory load thats so far off the lands (at least in my gun). After extensive measuring on the holy grail 140 eldm and seeing the average coal of 2.810 it amazes me that most pros use the method of jamming the lands or 1-2 thou off in most cases to try to achieve there best accuracy.I understand all rifles are diff and the custom barrels are way diff than off the shelf stock ,but the theory has always been get as close as you can for less jump and better accuracy. I find in my gun that stock Hornady load is 35k off my lands.They do group about 3/4 moa. at 100yrd. I know that is not over the top but pretty darn good since its just a stock Ruger off the shelf with no modifications. I am doing some early testing to see if I can replicate there load, and will be stretching it out safely as much a possible to see what happens.Any thoughts on there secret formula for the 6.5 Creed .

Just my opinion, but bullet stand off distances in rifles are highly overrated. I have never made an effort to play that game when developing a load, and have never had a lick of trouble (relatively speaking) finding a load that ran MOA or better.


Many rifles like a bit of jump before the bullet hits the lands. Most ARs in fact shoot better with some jump room. Certain bullet makers even tell you that you need a minimum jump of .050" for best performance, and that goes directly against the 'theory'. I generally seat to either the cannelure or for best fit in the magazine for feeding. You can get a solid, accurate load with just powder adjustment, and never know what the standoff is.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
To echo Mr Morris, 3/4 moa at 100 yards is truly uncompetitive.
Lots of factory offerings will do that out of a descent rifle. Hornady is good, but nowhere near what can be accomplished with a custom load for a specific gun. Minute of gnats azz at 400 yards is worth talking about.

Always amuses me the way people get all wound up over MOA groups, sweating bullets over it, so to speak.
It wasn't too many years ago, when the standard for a good accurate rifle was an inch and a half. It has only been in the last few years that basic rifle accuracy has improved that to an inch. In 90% of the situations you get into, that is more than good enough, especially if all you're doing is deer hunting.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:14 AM
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In my research into High Power and Service Rifle competition I have seen mentioned that 100 yard groups don't indicate much for rifle/loads meant to be competitive for 600/1000 yards.
Yes, even the most accurate 100/200 yard bench gun isn’t the tool you would want for 1000 yard. That said, a rifle that would win a 1000 match isn’t the tool you would want for 100/200 yard benchrest either.
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:48 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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The AMU and All Guard pistol teams use factory ammo at 50 yards. I'm not sure when the rifle teams transition from factory ammo to shop loads. The rifle teams have stated they can't load for individual rifles.
Service rifle or benchrest? Most service teams are using M262 Mod 1 for 5.56 for NRA/CMP service rifle is terrific up to and including 500 yds. In light winds it will hold its own at 600. That gets lot tested to each rifle for many service teams. Long line, single load for most heavy hitters with heavier bullets that are hand loaded.

For pistol, it is not exactly factory loads, the powder blends can/may be altered based on demands from the AMU and then each purchase is lot tested for accuracy and accepted/rejected, followed by matching of each lot to a specific pistol. Ammunition (pistol) for CMP service Pistol and NRA Precision Pistol aka "Bullseye" is purchased from Atlanta Arms. Rimfire is whatever works best, i.e. Eley TENEX, Lapua Midas+ etc. USMC just switched to Atlanta Arms about 2 years ago. USAF was using Federal GMM, and the Navy still TZZ/IMI Match.

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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
AMU and All Guard are supplied with gobs of what they are told to shoot. You can bet that any sponsored professional is not buying his ammo from WalMart if he isnít loading his own. They are being supplied with the pick of the litter. Iím not sure about the reasoning behind the AMU saying they canít load for individual rifles? 600+ BR shooters are weighing their loads to the individual granule of powder. You wonít even be on the same paper with them if you are grabbing a handful of palletized ammo.
I'm not sure the statement is true. Having shot service pistol on a team, I'm not as plugged into rifle.
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:06 PM
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Well the weather has improved enough here in Ohio to allow us to do some testing,out of 5, 5 shoot groups 2 had hole in a hole and one group had 3 hole in hole. Wasn't able to get the velocity up to Hornady factory loads but not to far off to worry about yet. These are all early work ups that show lots of promise with maybe a little more tweaking. Very happy at this point for a gun that is mostly going 500-1000 down the road.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:24 AM
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Always amuses me the way people get all wound up over MOA groups, sweating bullets over it, so to speak.
It wasn't too many years ago, when the standard for a good accurate rifle was an inch and a half. It has only been in the last few years that basic rifle accuracy has improved that to an inch. In 90% of the situations you get into, that is more than good enough, especially if all you're doing is deer hunting.
Absolutely agree, but the example at hand is the Creedmore.
Spectacularly capable of the tiniest of groups as is the PPC and a small handful of others. Not to say that a moose gun like the 300 Win Mag isnít capable of extreme accuracy (it is), but the run of the mill 30-06 canít hang with the oil can rounds. Iím thinking of the Creedmore in the sense of getting the absolute most out of its potential and you sure wonít get that from shoving factory ammo into it. Fire formed, neck sized, individualy weighed charges and the best of projectiles will win out over store bought any day of the week. That is, ONLY if the shooter is capable of going the distance. I certainly am not in that class and should have specified that 95% of us are not either.
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:04 AM
jmorris jmorris is online now
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Fire formed, neck sized, individualy weighed charges and the best of projectiles will win out over store bought any day of the week. That is, ONLY if the shooter is capable of going the distance.
I don’t know, I have seen lots of “handloads” not work as well as factory ammunition. When I read the OP’s post #10, it seems to me he hasn’t been able to equal factory ammunition yet.

Seems to me that lost of people look at loading like a kid putting loud exhaust on a car and thinks it’s faster because it makes more noise, without any quantitative testing.

If you don’t know what components are better than others, you might as well go with factory stuff (because you don’t know what “best” is), they likely at least tested a few different combinations.

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Old 04-03-2019, 11:53 AM
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I have a ways to go yet in workups but I am def. on the right track .So far I have only used the H4350 as everybody feels that is to go to, although I am not convinced of that yet. I did look closely at the factory powder in the Hornady 140s and it does resemble 4350 in shape but not in color or smell. I feel its some kind of mix. I will be using some other powders as things warm up here and range times improve.
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:55 AM
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I donít know, I have seen lots of ďhandloadsĒ not work as well as factory ammunition. When I read the OPís post #10, it seems to me he hasnít been able to equal factory ammunition yet.

Seems to me that lost of people look at loading like a kid putting loud exhaust on a car and thinks itís faster because it makes more noise, without any quantitative testing.

If you donít know what components are better than others, you might as well go with factory stuff (because you donít know what ďbestĒ is), they likely at least tested a few different combinations.
I am getting holes in holes with my loads now and none of the factory produced that.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:44 PM
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Absolutely agree, but the example at hand is the Creedmore.
Spectacularly capable of the tiniest of groups as is the PPC and a small handful of others. Not to say that a moose gun like the 300 Win Mag isnít capable of extreme accuracy (it is), but the run of the mill 30-06 canít hang with the oil can rounds. Iím thinking of the Creedmore in the sense of getting the absolute most out of its potential and you sure wonít get that from shoving factory ammo into it. Fire formed, neck sized, individualy weighed charges and the best of projectiles will win out over store bought any day of the week. That is, ONLY if the shooter is capable of going the distance. I certainly am not in that class and should have specified that 95% of us are not either.

I was thinking of what the average guy who shoots the 6.5 CM does with it. While most of the press on it is oriented around accuracy ends, I'd bet the majority of those who buy it don't do so for serious long range accuracy use. There are better rounds for that. I never did see the appeal of the Creedmore over other 6.5s of prior vintage. Maybe its the name? I owned an old 6.5x55 Swede Mauser years ago that could shoot bugholes when I did my part. The 260 Rem is also capable of fine accuracy, and the 6.5 Mannlicher rounds are famous for their accuracy. But that's all ancient history for the Creedmore crowd.



I have been following this since it first was announced, and so far I haven't been convinced it is worth all the hype and hoopla it has received. This isn't the first round to travel this road (remember the .300 BO?) and certainly won't be the last.
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Old 04-04-2019, 09:15 AM
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I am getting holes in holes with my loads now and none of the factory produced that.
I wasnít knocking you, just the ďhandloads have to be betterĒ concept.

Your rifle seems like a winner, factory ammo shooting 1/4Ē groups at 100 is phenomenal. Shrinking that to one round hole with your handloads means there isnít much we can teach you.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:49 PM
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I did not mean that in that way J , I am just always excited when I can get any load past factory accuracy , since the 6.5 is a new one on me I was always impressed with Hornady factory loads for that caliber. I also have another new challenge ahead and that is my new .224 valk build , buts in AR platform so I am not expecting the same kind of accuracy but its gonna be fun to see how far I can ring the plates. I just enjoy new challenges its the reason I reload. And trust me I am far far far from a competitive shooter. Dont tell my wife about the Valk I slid it in parts and pieces!
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