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  #1  
Old 10-27-2019, 12:06 PM
7in1911 7in1911 is offline
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10MM rounds for cougar and bear...

I went and did some hiking yesterday with a friend, love getting out in the woods away from the norm of work and home.

Anyways, I decided to carry my Glock 20 Gen4 10MM for any unexpected issues that may arise out there. The two loads I narrowed down to use for self-defense were Underwood 200gr XTP JHP's and I have some Double Tap 180gr FMJ rounds. I've read many reports of DT rounds falling short of their advertised velocity. Since I don't have a chronograph to test their velocity, I can't say either way.

I decided to go with the Underwood 200gr JHP XTP's. I'm sure they'd work fine on either 4-legged critter. I think though, that a good FMJ round from Underwood may be able to penetrate a bit deeper over a JHP if needed.

What 10MM round would you recommend as a good cougar or bear stopper?
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Old 10-27-2019, 07:48 PM
TGR TGR is offline
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Hello, I'm from western Washington as well

This is what Underwood has to say.


https://www.underwoodammo.com/pages/...sked-questions
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2019, 09:13 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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I am moving away from .44 Mag to 10mm for woods protection and have been looking at everything I can find on the subject.
The way I see it is with the cougar's lighter build a round like the 180 or 200 gr XTP would be ideal. With bear in mind the 200 gr makes sense.
For bear I run 200 gr Underwood hardcast. I like the idea of the heavier 220-230 gr loads but have heard of a few issues with them in certain guns. I am open to the idea of the Extreme Penetrator but don't want to be the beta tester.
I will say the 200 gr Underwood hard cast kicks harder then their 180 gr XTP.
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:57 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGR View Post
Hello, I'm from western Washington as well

This is what Underwood has to say.


https://www.underwoodammo.com/pages/...sked-questions
Here is Underwood's answer specifically on Bear:

Quote:
What 10mm load do you recommend for Bear?
We recommend consideration of the 140gr Xtreme Penetrator first, and the 200-220gr Hard Cast second.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:52 PM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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Started shooting the 10mm about 3 years ago...currently have a RIA Combat Commander, Kimber Stainless Target II, PARA Elite Longslide Hunter, Glock 40 and a GP100 MC.

For self-defense and light skinned game I run 155-165 grain cast and jacketed bullets, mainly Speer Gold Dot 165s. These run in the 1300s.

For penetration, after seeing two YouTube videos on the penetration power of the Underwood 140 Xtreme Penetrators I was sold. They run 1600+- fps depending on the gun. For a hardcast I went 200 vs. the 220 grain bullets. Figuring that I have been carrying a .41 Magnum for 40 years and a 200 grain 10mm has the same sectional density as a 210 grain .410 and the velocity of the 10mm isn't much less than a 4" .41, nothing that I hit is going to know the difference...

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  #6  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:11 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Whatever floats your boat.

I for one would be very reluctant to shoot either a bear or a cougar. We do not see many cougars here in the commonwealth. But we see bears all of the time. Generally speaking just yelling at them has the desired effect of them running away. My wife and I do not view them as a threat. I am guessing that cougars are much the same. Beautiful creatures, why would you want to kill them?

Criminals in Washington are another matter.
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:17 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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this is SD not hunting

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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I am guessing that cougars are much the same. Beautiful creatures, why would you want to kill them?
Beautiful creatures for sure, but the "typical" 99.5% of the time isn't what's being asked about. There are attacks by cougars and bears every year.... generally they are fine, but on occasion they are not- just like people.
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:53 PM
kthom kthom is offline
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Here in the West, it used to be that cougars were very seldom seen, even though cougars fairly often were in close proximity to humans. Obviously, much of the West is wide open country, where there is very little cover to hide a cougar or a bear. With either of these, sighting either one of these creatures in open country at closer distances is not something often seen, and when it is, there is likely some reason for that. Reasons like an animal crippled or sick that cannot normally secure their groceries easily.

A cougar does not require as powerful a cartridge to dispatch it compared to a bear, especially a griz or very large black bear. It seems that all animals have lost their natural behavior to totally avoid humans, due to the proclivity of humans to offer them handouts or get outside the safety of their vehicles to take close up photos of them. Wild animals are always wild animals, even if they don't run away when you see them. If threatened or scared by human's behavior, they may well attack rather than run. There has been a sharp increase of cougars stalking and attacking humans, particularly small ones, or large ones that are accompanied by dogs. Cougars and coyote are making a good living finding easy grocieries in places where human habitation is large. Dogs and cats make tasty treats for them! Neither cougars or bears are apt to pass up an easily obtained meal!

But with either animal, being able to land your shots at them under the extreme duress of an attack is a pretty iffy thing! As with all handguns fired for human personal protection, where the bullets strike is of significant importance, regardless of caliber and given enough power to penetrate deeply, especially in the case of bears. There is also no subsitute for personal keen awareness of the presence of either animal if out and about in their habitat. Slow retreat, if possible, is the first best action that can be taken. Don't turn your back on them. One should not ever approach either animal more closely! Otherwise stand your ground and be immediately able to use your firearm as effectively as you possibly can if attacked. This is the best advice I have to give. What ever firearm you choose for this task, it should be one you can handle and fire very effectively. As always, good hits with any round is far more effective than misses with larger and more powerful rounds!
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Last edited by kthom; 10-30-2019 at 12:56 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2019, 02:02 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I understand what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Beautiful creatures for sure, but the "typical" 99.5% of the time isn't what's being asked about. There are attacks by cougars and bears every year.... generally they are fine, but on occasion they are not- just like people.
But in reality you are more likely to get killed in your automobile driving out to the national forest, BLM land, or whatever than you are to be attacked by a wild animal. Not that I would tell you to go unarmed. I am always armed going out into the woods. But my concern is more about two legged predators
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:06 PM
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:37 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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We usually have 3 to 7 grizzly attacks here each year. When I go to the hills I pack bear spray & something that starts .4.
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:47 PM
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Seems like people have lost any inhibitions when it comes to interacting with wild animals. Too much Disney or whatever objectifying animals maybe, but for sure no education from the schools about just how dangerous wild animals can be. And with the continuing encroachment of humans on animal habitat, it is small wonder that more people don't get attacked and eaten a lot more often.


I saw a couple pictures the other day of 50 odd people gathered in a semi-circle on the side of the road around a black bear that had to have been 300 lbs or more. Quite a number of them were almost close enough to touch the damn bear! That's just utter stupidity at work.



In light of that, I often wonder about why people are willing to go into their habitat with nothing but a handgun for protection. No handgun is going to stop a bear who is enraged and intent on getting to you, unless you're the luckiest man to ever walk the earth. Even a rifle won't always be enough. Several people got killed by a black bear up in Canada a few years ago, including one guy who got off a good shot with a rifle. Game wardens had to go in and track it down and kill it.



I'd want something a lot more potent than a 10mm. From what I've found out talking to guys up spend time up in Alaska in grizzly country, the .45-70 is in high demand. That's the least I'd consider carrying, or maybe a 12 ga auto loaded with slugs. I'd still carry a handgun, but it would only be as a last resort.
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2019, 05:40 PM
flechero flechero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
But in reality you are more likely to get killed in your automobile driving out to the national forest, BLM land, or whatever than you are to be attacked by a ...
agreed, but to clarify-

You are more likely to die in your car than ever be attacked by a "2 legged critter" but few of us ever leave home unarmed. We carry for an event that is statistically not likely to happen... so if you are carrying anyway, loading ammo to address the worst of what could attack you has no downside.

A friend once asked me why I carry when I fish from my boat- my response was that I always carry so to specifically disarm to go fishing would be an odd break from my routine. Besides, I have to get to and from the lake and be on the boat ramps, which are notoriously bad areas after dark.
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:03 PM
vortec vortec is offline
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Here in the West, it used to be that cougars were very seldom seen, even though cougars fairly often were in close proximity to humans.
That changed dramatically when California outlawed cougar hunting. Their numbers rose and their fear of humans decreased. Cougar attacks on hikers, bikers, and humans in remote areas increased. Do-gooder leftist fools continually sabotage controlled game management so they can pretend they are compassionate. Doesn't work out so well for the victim.

Regarding 10mm bullets, go with a proven performer, wide flat nose hard cast. Best penetration of any loading and massive permanent wound channel. The concept to remember is momentum which is bullet mass times velocity. The HC bullets have about 20% more momentum that the lightweight "extreme penetrator" bullets.
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  #15  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:19 AM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I for one would be very reluctant to shoot either a bear or a cougar. We do not see many cougars here in the commonwealth. But we see bears all of the time. Generally speaking just yelling at them has the desired effect of them running away. My wife and I do not view them as a threat. I am guessing that cougars are much the same. Beautiful creatures, why would you want to kill them?

Criminals in Washington are another matter.
The cougar issue is very real here in the PNW as their population increases.
The woman that was killed near Mt. Hood last year showed evidence of being toyed with before the cat finished her.
You won't find out what is going on by relying on the media but outdoorsmen here know the score.
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  #16  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:56 AM
TGR TGR is offline
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This ammo worked for this guy

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/sa...-griz.1792988/
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2019, 10:08 PM
Capt. Methane Capt. Methane is offline
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I would not recommend a hollow point bullet for bear, not even black bears. A solid, hard cast lead bullet (perhaps gas checked as required) is far more the right choice. The XTP is a fine bullet but hollow point bullets are not the bullet of choice for tough, thick skinned, heavy boned critters with foul dispositions and large teeth and claws...
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Old 11-14-2019, 06:04 PM
WobbleZone WobbleZone is offline
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My Glock 20 will not reliably feed 200 gr. Hardcast Buffalo Bore.

My XD-m and Nighthawk both love them.
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Old 11-14-2019, 09:08 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Capt. Methane View Post
I would not recommend a hollow point bullet for bear, not even black bears. A solid, hard cast lead bullet (perhaps gas checked as required) is far more the right choice. The XTP is a fine bullet but hollow point bullets are not the bullet of choice for tough, thick skinned, heavy boned critters with foul dispositions and large teeth and claws...
This is how I feel too.
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:36 AM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGR View Post
Hello, I'm from western Washington as well

This is what Underwood has to say.


https://www.underwoodammo.com/pages/...sked-questions
Interesting. Their recommendation is the same ammunition that I use for my EDC 10mm, 140gr Xtreme Penetrator. It has some of the best ballistics for use against 2 legged "beasts." On a cougar should be no problem. But, against a bear, especially a Brown Bear and bigger, I'd rather be using at least a .308 or a 12 ga. slug.
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Old 12-09-2019, 08:07 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I am guessing that cougars are much the same. Beautiful creatures, why would you want to kill them?
I don't recall anyone here wanting to kill one.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Beautiful creatures for sure, but the "typical" 99.5% of the time isn't what's being asked about. There are attacks by cougars and bears every year.... generally they are fine, but on occasion they are not- just like people.

They are becoming more prevalent too. Cougars are semi-protected in most places, and their habitat is shrinking due to human recreational encroachment. Cats are hunters of opportunity, and even a healthy cat will take a pet, or a small kid, or small adult if they can. Bears are nothing to fool with either, yet we saw a picture of a couple dozen people stopped at the side of the highway in a semi-circle around a big black bear just a few weeks ago. A 400 lb black bear can rip you in half in a quick hurry if he gets mad, and both cats and bears are losing their fear of humans more every year.
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Old 12-10-2019, 10:25 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I get you and agree.

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Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
I don't recall anyone here wanting to kill one.
What I am saying that the threat that these creatures pose is overrated. Like Frank says, they usually have three to seven Grizzly attacks per year up where he lives. I have no reason to doubt him. But I bet that there are far more people being maimed and killed for other reasons than bear attacks.

I do not go into the wild unarmed, nor do I recommend that anyone else do it. But I think that the chances of being attacked by a wild animal are pretty slim when viewed in the overall scheme of things.
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  #24  
Old 12-11-2019, 04:58 PM
ss30378 ss30378 is offline
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Number 1 for any load you pick make sure its 100% reliable.

The 10mm lends itself wonderfully to handloading. 12.8g AA9 and a 220g Ackerman WFN cast bullet runs 1290fps from a 5" 1911 and 1330fps from a 7" kkm barrel g40 and have been impressive on 2-300lb pigs. I've yet to recover a bullet and some have been near 3 feet of penetration required to exit. Witnessing this and the damage done, i'd recommend a heavy cast WFN.
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Old 12-11-2019, 07:40 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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What I am saying that the threat that these creatures pose is overrated.
This is the part where we disagree. I had a less than 50 foot encounter with a cougar. Who knows how many other times I just didn't see them.
I know people that have been stalked. How many more times they just didn't see them?
They are common here. In the last 15 years I've seen as many as bears.
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