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Who is right?

4K views 45 replies 20 participants last post by  Jim V 
#1 ·
The tip of the long pin on the thumb safety of my Executive Carry broke off. To my surprise the piece was hollow and not machined from solid stock. I called Brown and they asked that I send the gun back. They sent a UPS Call Tag and charged my credit card $50. They reported back that the thumb safety was "defective" and that they were going to replace it at no charge for the part and the labor. When I requested a refund for the UPS charge Ed Brown (personally) refused.
This seems unfair to me. What do you think?
 
#7 ·
Pretty much what I think and the fact that do not feel the same way doesn't inspire confidence. Can you imagine if GE said you had to pay the freight back to the factory to repair a defective refrigerator? It's not much of a service policy or customer service program.
 
#4 ·
It is unfair but that has always been Ed Brown's repair/return policy.

I knew it before I ordered my KC so if I need it I understand the policy,but I do all my own work on my guns so for me it is really no concern.
 
#8 ·
If I knew this was the policy I may have acted differently as well. When I called initially Justin assured me that the replacement of the thumb safety was not a simple take out and put the new one in. There was fitting and adjustment required. He did not indicate it was the policy to charge for shipping other than to get the gun back and determine the cause. If the problem was cause by me, I have the obligation to pay the freight and Brown has every right to charge me for the part and the labor and the return freight (which they paid).
 
#6 ·
Maybe someone from their camp will see this and wake up and realize what curmudgeon's they are when it comes to this kinda stuff, loosen up the pocket book Ed buddy, seriously, if they admit it's their fault, freakin pony up the cash, it's called the cost of doing business.

I've spent $7K on their pistols in the last 45 days and seeing this kinda stuff makes me wonder. Disappointing.:(
 
#9 ·
Disappointing sums it up nicely or maybe it is a little to gentle. Everyone in this country is talking about taking responsibility for their actions. It would do Brown a world of good not to tarnish their reputation over petty nonsense.
 
#13 ·
it's been discussed before, you have to pay for shipping the firearm back to the factory.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=259648
Are you suggesting that having been discussed before makes it right? I'm not with you on that. They (their dealer) sold me a product with a defective part. I'm not suggesting they knew the gun had a defective part, but I think they are obligated to replace and repair the part (which they did) and cover the expense of getting the product to their factory to do that work. You are entitled to your opinion, it's just not one I share.
 
#11 ·
Honestly I think they should send you a check back with your pistol, or a t-shirt and some mags.

I love my Executive Elite. Had an issue with it that was their fault and sent it back on my dime. To my benefit the local FedEx shipper sent it back for me 2-3 Day Air Saver so it was 20 bucks.

I think the only way its going to change if it effects their sales and by the serial numbers as an indicator it isnt. But sooner or later it will and stuff like this could end them.

Im sitting here with money debating on another Executive Elite with a light rail but some things are making me hesitate.
 
#14 ·
There is a lot of competition out there and a lot of semi-custom manufacturers chasing customers. I have an EE and an EC so I'm in with both feet, but your point about thinking twice before another purchase is well taken.
I also felt burned by the $50 charge which I think is higher than what it would have cost if I boxed it up and took it to FedEx or UPS. Why should shipping be a profit center for Brown? It's like double jeopardy.
 
#12 ·
So if I am reading this correctly they charged you only one way - not both correct? I had Brown do some work on my trigger a while back (not defective, but enhanced) and I paid both ways at their discounted rate - which I thought was fair. Especially for overnight-ing a pistol.
 
#15 ·
You are correct. They paid the shipping (2nd Day in both cases) back to me. If I wanted to have work done on my gun I would not ask and would not expect the manufacturer to pay for shipping in either direction. I also do not think I got the advantage of their discounted rate. My feeling is I was overcharged. If anyone knows the cost of 2nd Day Air UPS it would be interesting. I'm guessing it is less than $50 which is what I was charged.
 
#17 ·
NFK,

Four years ago, my memory of the cost to ship a Kobra Carry to Ed Brown's shop in Perry, Missourri was about $50 via Fed Ex from the SW 152 Street, Miami-Dade County, Florida, Fed Ex, shipping depot. I am giving this example becaused it is close to your location. Perry is a little difficult to get to.

If I were running Brown, I would track and then total my legitimate warranty work events, multiply the number of events due to legitimate warranty work times an estimated per customer incoming shipping cost and mark the cost of all guns up by this probable small amount per gun sold. I would then give customers who paid for shipping for legitimate warranty work a credit for their incoming shipping to Brown.

I would not pay this if all your mags did not work because you were riding the slide stop or if you shot three inches to the left and the sights were dead on.

I would formally announce this policy on the Ed Brown web site.

Barring doing this, I would formally put on the web site, if not already there, that customer pays all shipping in on warranty work.

This is the way I would try to handle it. But Brown has been very successful doing it their way.

Regards,

Craig
 
#21 ·
NFK,

Four years ago, my memory of the cost to ship a Kobra Carry to Ed Brown's shop in Perry, Missourri was about $50 via Fed Ex from the SW 152 Street, Miami-Dade County, Florida, Fed Ex, shipping depot. I am giving this example becaused it is close to your location. Perry is a little difficult to get to.

If I were running Brown, I would track and then total my legitimate warranty work events, multiply the number of events due to legitimate warranty work times an estimated per customer incoming shipping cost and mark the cost of all guns up by this probable small amount per gun sold. I would then give customers who paid for shipping for legitimate warranty work a credit for their incoming shipping to Brown.
No doubt about their being successful and no question that their products are high quality, but things do happen and no manufacturer can guarantee 100%. However, for this small percentage of defects (whatever that number is) it is hard to justify making the customer pay for the company's mistake. I will accept your cost estimate on the shipping and as I pointed our to Ed Brown, $50 will not change his life of mine, but it does rub me the wrong way.
I would not pay this if all your mags did not work because you were riding the slide stop or if you shot three inches to the left and the sights were dead on.

I would formally announce this policy on the Ed Brown web site.

Barring doing this, I would formally put on the web site, if not already there, that customer pays all shipping in on warranty work.

This is the way I would try to handle it. But Brown has been very successful doing it their way.

Regards,

Craig
I agree that they have been successful and I think they make a fine product and deserve that success. However is something goes wrong how can they hold the customer responsible? My guess is if Brown bought a product from one of their suppliers and the product was defective they would not send it back at their expense to have it fixed. It's a small amount, but it is extremely irritating.
 
#18 ·
Overnight plus insurance on a $2k+ is easily $50 ish.

It is a legitimate complaint you have. But this is Brown's policy. I would wait to see what happens when you get it back. Maybe they will throw in some mags for the trouble.

Other than that, I have no advice. And I have no answers.


Regards,
Greyson
 
#22 · (Edited)
The gun did come back and there was nothing in the package except the gun. They were insensitive enough not even to answer may last email asking when the gun would be returned which was two days after I sent the email.. I am fully aware that I have no leverage in the matter, but I think their attitude lacks any nuance of fairness. You can not label it Customer Service.
 
#24 ·
Dredd,
I'm going to stop quoting and re-quoting, but in answer to your comments it was Justin (Brown's representative) who suggested that I send back the gun and not just the defective part. He said the new thumb safety would have to be fitted to the gun and that the entire mechanism would have to be adjusted. He said that if it were a defective part, which is was, the part would be replaced without charge for the part and for labor, the gun would be returned and he indicated (clearly at least in my mind) that the shipping charges put on my credit card to get the gun to Brown would be credited.

No refund, no sorry you had the problem, no freebie, just hard line: we have done all we are going to do. It's not like they gave me the gun and it's not like I broke the gun. I'm the customer and as we all know the customer is (almost) always right or they are likely not going to be a future customer.
 
#26 ·
The longer Ive owned my Brown the more I stopped overlooking a few things they did wrong. And didnt bother to correct when it went back to them to get the thumb safety some dimwit made dangerous when they built it. A fact no one caught checking it before it left the factory.

Not to mention the fact they made it out to be some kind of "deal" they made me to flush cut the muzzle for the "awesome" price of $50 bucks. Which coincedentally became the normal price about 3 months afterwards.

Then to add insult to injury here I have a Les Baer that cost a good chunk less that seems to impress me more and more each day I own it. The exact opposite of my Ed Brown.

I guess the more I read this kind of stuff and from my personal experience it tends to burn my ass. So I think I'll just wait because someday my local dealer will eventually get some of those SA Pros he has a standing order for in.:biglaugh:
 
#28 ·
NFK,
Who is right? You are right.....no if's, and's, or but's about it. I had the exact same experience with another manufacturer about 6 months ago. Had two firearms ordered at the same time in fact. When the first one arrived straight from the factory, it wouldn't even chamber the first round. $75 to UPS and back to the factory it went. This particular company even states in their warranty they are liable for the return freight if found defective. I decided never again from that company, so my next firearm purchase was a Brown SF. I have to admit, I knew what Brown's policy was before I bought, but it just isn't right! Very short sighted on Mr. Brown's part but he's not asking me for my opinion either. :barf: It was hard for me to get beyond being out $75, but I have moved on. Hope you can as well. I feel your pain....I really do......
 
#31 ·
A matter of principle

As a matter of principle it seems that your expectations were invalidated.

I do not support the current EB policy that all returns to factory which end up being an EB warranty issue are the financial responsibility of the gun owner. It would be a much better policy for him to implement a review program such that upon conclusion, it is determined that an EB part failure was to be identified and covered under warranty, then Ed Brown could personally instruct Justin to credit the cost of shipping charges to the owner and return the gun to the without additional charges applied.

I fully agree with your position that you should not have to suffer financial inconvenience for an EB parts failure/quality control issue. It is bad enough to be without one of your favorite firearms for the duration of time to ship back and forth and benchtime for repiar. Furthermore, I am also dismayed to have you state that the EB small part which failed WAS NOT up to the perceived HIGH QUALITY manufacturing process which we are all led to believe exists on each and everyone of EB's components, much less even admitted to by EB. At least they were honest and stated that information to you.

Did you request the factory to return the failed part with your repaired gun? Perhaps we all would have benefitted from an independent analysis by a certified gunsmith as to the quality of process and or material used in making this part? a hollow versus solid metal shaft? That seems to be a very GROSS QC error or negligence. If in fact yours was the first to be returned for this replacement you have actually done him a great service by highlighting this possibility remaining in the entire existing bacth of these parts. Perhaps you have even helped prevent an entire thread or two with multiple pages of entries stating "I also have had to send back to EB my pistol because of this part being hollow........."

Just wondering if the state of economy has forced even a company with a great quality of manufacturing reputation such as Ed Brown to cut corners? This, in light of the fact that many manufacturers and custom builders rely on EB as a source for the highest quality of these type small parts available for the model 1911.
 
#35 ·
If you look at this thread, it's about a manuf not wanting to give up $50, for the OP, it was about principle, as it should have been. So, Mr. Brown now has to ask himself the question: was my $50 worth it?? Are my "policies" really benefiting my company?? Bad business Brown.:(
 
#36 ·
Moad,
I appreciate you understanding and you can be sure that I am going to move on. As I mentioned earlier, $50 is not going to change my life or Ed Brown's life, but I hope the general feelings on this forum give them the idea that what they did is not what they claim to stand for and it may hurt them in the long run.
 
#37 ·
Kruzr,

(I'd still choose another Baer over another Brown but that's been hashed out before.)

I would agree with you on that decision. And my experience is that Les is personally involved in everything associated with his company, is knowledgeable, helpful, patient and will work with you until it is to your complete satisfaction. He will not blow you off. Just my experience.
 
#40 ·
When I dealt with a Brown issue, they didn't "blow me off." They fixed the gun quickly and rethroated the barrel even though I didn't ask them to. This was about 4 or 5 years ago. They didn't talk much when I first called nor when they called to tell me it was coming back. The gun just came back fixed with no paperwork. At that time, I had to pay a premium for Fed Ex to deliver to Perry.

When I dealt with a Baer issue, I spoke with Les directly and while they were quite a bit slower than Brown, they called to tell me what they found and what they were going to do. When I got the gun back, there was a sheet with what was done, a target shot by Les, and two Baer shirts.
 
#39 · (Edited)
shoot 191,

I fully agree with your position that you should not have to suffer financial inconvenience for an EB parts failure/quality control issue. It is bad enough to be without one of your favorite firearms for the duration of time to ship back and forth and benchtime for repiar. Furthermore, I am also dismayed to have you state that the EB small part which failed WAS NOT up to the perceived HIGH QUALITY manufacturing process which we are all led to believe exists on each and everyone of EB's components, much less even admitted to by EB. At least they were honest and stated that information to you.

You are right on target here. The only thing is that Ed Brown (personally in an email) suggested that they had spent enough time with me on this incident. I thought that was over the top. If you are paying that kind of money for what is advertised as a top quality product you expect quality control.

Did you request the factory to return the failed part with your repaired gun? Perhaps we all would have benefitted from an independent analysis by a certified gunsmith as to the quality of process and or material used in making this part? a hollow versus solid metal shaft? That seems to be a very GROSS QC error or negligence. If in fact yours was the first to be returned for this replacement you have actually done him a great service by highlighting this possibility remaining in the entire existing bacth of these parts. Perhaps you have even helped prevent an entire thread or two with multiple pages of entries stating "I also have had to send back to EB my pistol because of this part being hollow........."

That is a good point and I should have asked them to send back the defective part (not likely that they would) or at least have taken photos of it (I did not). To briefly describe the defect approximately 1/4" of the tip of the pin on the thumb safety fractured. The solid pin inside the hollow tube ended at the point of the break. I would have thought that the thumb safety was machined from solid stock. I have no idea if this is a potentially dangerous defect. Does anyone know if it is?


And just in the interest of full disclosure, the following is part of an email from Ed Brown Products:

Broken parts are simply replaced at no charge, by looking at your part it appears to be a casting flaw.
Thank you! (My underline for emphasis)

Ed Brown Products, Inc.
43825 Muldrow Trail
PO Box 492
Perry, MO 63462
573-565-3261
Fax: 573-565-2791
www.edbrown.com
 
#41 ·
I am not going to take sides here but I will make a suggestion.

Last fall my grip bushing pulled out of the frame on my Dan Wesson and the barrel bushing started to show signs of premature wear. I took the gun to my local FFL and for $15 he shipped it backed to them Priority Mail with insurance. DW took care of both items under warranty and returned the gun on their dime. The replacement bushing was a much higher quality item from Ed Brown.

So the next time you have an issue like this, see if you can get an FFL to ship it for you, it cost me a whole lot less than $50.
 
#46 ·
Thread closed

This has been discussed before and in this thread it has been beaten to death.

Brown has his posted return policy and no amount of "it sucks" here will change that policy.

Thread closed.
 
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