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  #1  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:59 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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The danger of no-knock warrants

Here we go again, there was yet another situation where a no-knock warrant had tragic consequences. Louisville police broke into a young woman's apartment thinking it was a front for drug dealing, and her boyfriend naturally thought they were being robbed so he fired at one of the officers. The cops returned fire and killed the woman. Turns out she was an EMT with no criminal history, and the only reason why the police even suspected her of drug dealing was because the real crooks were having packages sent to her address to avoid detection.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/br...q2F?li=BBnb7Kz

In a country where citizens have guns and are legally allowed to defend themselves in their own homes no-knock warrants are a bad idea and need to be stopped, except in the most extreme circumstances.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:28 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Pretty sad as whatever comes out of this.

The poor girl will remain deceased. And then you will likely have someone low down on the totem pole taking the heat for the higher ups that really are responsible for the screw up.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:38 AM
Handforged Handforged is offline
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There were still steps that had to be taken to acquire said warrant. An investigator had to approach the DA or ADA with enough evidence as they thought sufficient to secure a warrant. DA or ADA had to take that evidence to the judge. The problem isn't the crew that served the warrant and the acts that followed, albeit a poor outcome, it is the process that lead to them GETTING the warrant with what seems to be no verifiable evidence other than observation or possibly CI information.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:57 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Handforged View Post
There were still steps that had to be taken to acquire said warrant. An investigator had to approach the DA or ADA with enough evidence as they thought sufficient to secure a warrant. DA or ADA had to take that evidence to the judge. The problem isn't the crew that served the warrant and the acts that followed, albeit a poor outcome, it is the process that lead to them GETTING the warrant with what seems to be no verifiable evidence other than observation or possibly CI information.
The problem STARTS with the officer who requests such a warrant. The DA knows which judges to go to for rubber stamp signatures.....

Everyone involved, from the requesting officer, the CLEO, and the judge should be held criminally accountable...
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:35 PM
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Well at least this raid was completely justified. How dare she not pay her gas bill?!?!
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:36 PM
Highway67 Highway67 is offline
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This is coming from a law abiding citizen...Cops have no reason to storm my residence...So here's a nifty idea, stay out of my house!!!! Someone storms my house in the middle of the night without announcing themselves, they are getting shot...And with the lay of my house and location of defensive weapons, the cops are in for a long night...I am tired of seeing these reports of innocent people being killed by LEOsd by mistake...If you don't know what you are doing or the situation stay on the porch, and knock...
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:58 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is online now
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The story says the actual dealer was receiving mail and packages at their address. Were the residents aware of this or was it without their knowledge?
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:26 PM
Levian Levian is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The problem STARTS with the officer who requests such a warrant. The DA knows which judges to go to for rubber stamp signatures.....

Everyone involved, from the requesting officer, the CLEO, and the judge should be held criminally accountable...
I'd take it a step further and say the problem starts with 'No knock' warrants being available in the first place.

I understand it sucks big floppy donkey bits to have to show up in broad daylight at a potentially armed drug dealer's house. I fully acknowledge it would be terrible to have to knock on the residence and let the occupants know the police are there to haul them in, as it drastically increases risk to the officers. But at least in that situation if any shooting starts the police will be gunning down the right damned people.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:06 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is online now
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I'd take it a step further and say the problem starts with 'No knock' warrants being available in the first place.
Agree with this one.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:21 PM
bluedodger bluedodger is offline
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Well it's been about a year since our heroes slaughtered this couple,
https://reason.com/2019/05/14/forens...red-the-house/
and they have been about forgotten while our scum police chief is still on the job.
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post

In a country where citizens have guns and are legally allowed to defend themselves in their own homes no-knock warrants are a bad idea and need to be stopped, except in the most extreme circumstances.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian View Post
I'd take it a step further and say the problem starts with 'No knock' warrants being available in the first place.

I understand it sucks big floppy donkey bits to have to show up in broad daylight at a potentially armed drug dealer's house. I fully acknowledge it would be terrible to have to knock on the residence and let the occupants know the police are there to haul them in, as it drastically increases risk to the officers. But at least in that situation if any shooting starts the police will be gunning down the right damned people.
I would not take the option off the table but it would be used in extremely limited and extreme cases only. It is dangerous for the citizen and the LEOs because many people are going to start shooting when someone bust through their door in the early morning hours.

My dogs and my guns would be making so much noise I would be unable to hear any LEO commands. I just would not ever expect the law to knock my door down because I am not a law breaker. It would be instinct and reflex to fight and that why it is so dangerous.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:46 PM
Levian Levian is offline
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I would take it away in a heart beat. Citizens have the right to a speedy and fair trial - not a speedy and unfair execution.

Edit: Perhaps that's a knee jerk reaction. Maybe it should remain on the table for the Pablo Escobars of the world. But it seriously needs to be reigned in, and the bar for issuing such a warrant raised to the point where it's a much more rare occurrence.

Last edited by Levian; 05-13-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:24 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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Maybe it should remain on the table for the Pablo Escobars of the world. But it seriously needs to be reigned in, and the bar for issuing such a warrant raised to the point where it's a much more rare occurrence.
That is the kind of very limited and extreme case I would use it for.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:54 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Levian View Post
I'd take it a step further and say the problem starts with 'No knock' warrants being available in the first place.

I understand it sucks big floppy donkey bits to have to show up in broad daylight at a potentially armed drug dealer's house. I fully acknowledge it would be terrible to have to knock on the residence and let the occupants know the police are there to haul them in, as it drastically increases risk to the officers. But at least in that situation if any shooting starts the police will be gunning down the right damned people.
I think that no knocks have a place- albeit a very narrow, limited one....

They should be a small, fraction of a percentage of warrants, not the default setting.

I would suggest that a MUCH more stringent process be in place for no knocks. A sit down with the requesting officer, the CLEO, the DA, and the judge- a Superior Court judge, not the part time magistrate. Very specific, articulated, detailed justification as to why this one warrant, out of 1000, needs to be no knock. Not the generic, cut and paste language cited in the article. A risk mitigation plan.
AND personal civil and criminal liability for those making the decision....

Does it make the job more difficult? Absolutely. Nobody said it was easy.
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Old 05-13-2020, 04:53 PM
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The person requesting the NKW, the issuing judge and the senior person on scene should all 3 have to sign it, be on scene and own it if something goes wrong. One good person dead is not worth 100 drug dealers in custody.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:47 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I fully agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STORM2 View Post
The person requesting the NKW, the issuing judge and the senior person on scene should all 3 have to sign it, be on scene and own it if something goes wrong. One good person dead is not worth 100 drug dealers in custody.
If these people are willing to sign off on this. Then the responsibility for it being properly and legally executed lies entirely with them. No two ways about it.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:04 PM
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What a horrible tragedy.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:15 PM
Levian Levian is offline
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Considering this tactic is most typically employed against drug dealers, my tangentially related thought is that it's time to take a page from Portugal and put an end to the drug war.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work. Neither has prohibition of other things. We're still funneling money to gangs, still pushing production into the shadows where it can be cut with poison, pushing users to the fringes where they can't get help with their addiction, and getting innocent people killed. For what? What are we accomplishing here?

Maybe instead of funding more police and more prisons we should be funding more education and more rehabilitation centers. It seems to work for Portugal.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:17 PM
Timbo3 Timbo3 is online now
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Accountability for those that initiate the NKW is the only way to stop it. Holding judges accountable, wow think that will ever happen?
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:34 PM
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Strange I came across this post today, I literally just finished watching the Original Netflix Series "Waco" (from 2018). I gained some new perspective on just how badly the ATF screwed the pooch. Waco was intended to be a publicity comeback for the ATF after the Ruby Ridge fiasco. I learned that tear gas is highly combustable (which I did not know). All those kids trapped inside and burned alive. So tragically unnecessary.

Koresh was nuttier than a squirrel turd, but he was still an American with constitutional rights. No innocent civilians should be murdered by agencies inforcing the law.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:29 PM
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Some comeback, it was actually a confirmation.
I don't have the vocabulary to express my feelings about this glimpse into our governing class.
This is the kind of crap you'd expect to read about the Japanese or Nazis in WWII or jihad and barbarians.
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Last edited by dsk; 05-15-2020 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 05-14-2020, 06:41 AM
snakebill snakebill is offline
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https://www.wave3.com/2020/03/27/jud...ion-weeks-ago/

A little side note. The boyfriend is being charged with attempted murder of an officer. Apparently he’s been released without bail but not without upsetting the Louisville law enforcement community.
Look, I get it. Sometimes there’s a need for a no knock entry, but they better know they’re right and should be responsible. Every member of that team and the judge. My friend is a NYS certified vehicle inspector. If he passes a car on purpose or accidentally that should’ve failed and someone dies as a result, he will be criminally charged. Seems like a lot of responsibility and accountability for a mechanic, but I understand why. Why not the same logic for our police?
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:12 AM
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I'm not in law enforcement, so I don't know the details of this process. It seems to me that the only justification for a no knock warrant would be if LE can demonstrate to a judge that the person being served has a documented history of violence and presents a threat to LE personnel. The fear that someone might flush evidence down the toilet should not trump possibly killing or injuring someone. If a dealer flushes his stash, you'll get another chance eventually. They don't quit dealing because they got raided. Dead is dead.
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  #24  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:42 AM
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Another little problem with NKWs: the wrong address. Whether the SWAT guys are given the wrong address because that's what's in the files, or they get it wrong out in the field. I live in an apartment building with four apartments, two upstairs and two down. The downstairs addresses are 1234 and 1236 (examples only); the upstairs are 1234A and 1236A. Easy to drop that letter, whether in the records they are supplied with or an honest blunder in the field, and go to the wrong place. Unnecessary tragic results very likely.
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:11 AM
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I am amused/appalled that anyone thinks they can justify a Police State and usurpation of absolute Rights. It doesn't matter how many, expensive layers of paperwork are involved: NKW violate your rights.

Govt "Accountability" is proven almost daily to be nonexistent, so Just Say No. I don't care *** level of gov or their acronym: Just.Say.No.
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