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  #1  
Old 03-21-2009, 05:19 PM
HHjr HHjr is offline
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Cocked and Lock CCW shooting - guarenteed lawsuit from manufacturer

This is going to be long but I need to explain what I encountered today. Please bear with me.
A friend and I stopped by a gun shop today after a IDPA match. The shop is called Duncan’s Outdoor Shop in Bay City, MI. The first gun I checked out was the CZ75 SP-O1 Tactical. I thought the gun was Cocked and Locked capable. When I inquired about that mode of carry the young person behind the counter told me “No”, and “If I were to shoot someone while carry any cocked and locked pistol I would be sued by the manufacturer”. …….He told me a 1911 Colt was never designed to be carried cocked and locked. I asked if the same applied to HK USP’s and a SIG P220 Single Action …he and another older employee returned a stern “Yes”. I got agitated and decided just to drop the conversation.
Well, I pulled out a couple manuals when I got home ….. My USP manual states the following “ It’s controls are uniquely American influenced by such famous and successful designs as the Govt model 1911, and like the model 1911, the USP can be safely carried “cocked and locked”. It goes on to instruct the user how to set the controls for cocked and locked carry.
My mid 1980’s Gold Cup manual does indeed state warnings …. From the manual under the General handling Cautions: Always keep and carry your pistol empty, hammer forward except when you intend to shoot. And under shooting cautions: Always keep the safety on when the pistol is loaded and cocked until you are ready to fire
In 1999 I took an Advance Pistol class from John Farnum ….. I do not recall a single warning about carrying my cocked and locked 10mm Bilby Commander. Potential Litigation was discussed about carrying. My friend Eric took a class from Ken Hackathorn and he too stated his love for the 1911.
I respectfully ask for your take on this shop’s comments. Maybe they are trying to sell more Glocks, DA/SA SIG’s and XD’s ?? I feel their comments came straight from their Ass. How many lawsuits can you remember hearing about a manufacturer sueing the owner of a cocked and locked 1911 involved AD ?? Any accidental shooting is going to cost you regardless what action type is involved.

Harold H.
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2009, 05:26 PM
NETim NETim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHjr View Post
This is going to be long but I need to explain what I encountered today. Please bear with me.
A friend and I stopped by a gun shop today after a IDPA match. The shop is called Duncan’s Outdoor Shop in Bay City, MI. The first gun I checked out was the CZ75 SP-O1 Tactical. I thought the gun was Cocked and Locked capable. When I inquired about that mode of carry the young person behind the counter told me “No”, and “If I were to shoot someone while carry any cocked and locked pistol I would be sued by the manufacturer”. …….He told me a 1911 Colt was never designed to be carried cocked and locked. I asked if the same applied to HK USP’s and a SIG P220 Single Action …he and another older employee returned a stern “Yes”. I got agitated and decided just to drop the conversation.
Well, I pulled out a couple manuals when I got home ….. My USP manual states the following “ It’s controls are uniquely American influenced by such famous and successful designs as the Govt model 1911, and like the model 1911, the USP can be safely carried “cocked and locked”. It goes on to instruct the user how to set the controls for cocked and locked carry.
My mid 1980’s Gold Cup manual does indeed state warnings …. From the manual under the General handling Cautions: Always keep and carry your pistol empty, hammer forward except when you intend to shoot. And under shooting cautions: Always keep the safety on when the pistol is loaded and cocked until you are ready to fire
In 1999 I took an Advance Pistol class from John Farnum ….. I do not recall a single warning about carrying my cocked and locked 10mm Bilby Commander. Potential Litigation was discussed about carrying. My friend Eric took a class from Ken Hackathorn and he too stated his love for the 1911.
I respectfully ask for your take on this shop’s comments. Maybe they are trying to sell more Glocks, DA/SA SIG’s and XD’s ?? I feel their comments came straight from their Ass. How many lawsuits can you remember hearing about a manufacturer sueing the owner of a cocked and locked 1911 involved AD ?? Any accidental shooting is going to cost you regardless what action type is involved.

Harold H.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work behind the counter at a gunshop.
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2009, 05:27 PM
BillD BillD is offline
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I've heard more pure BS in gunshops than any other establishment, including bars.
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2009, 05:34 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HHjr View Post
I feel their comments came straight from their Ass.
I think that's probably a fair assessment.
If Massad Ayoob, the authority on legal paranoia (and I mean this as a compliment), doesn't have a pb with a 1911 in condition 1, I'm not about to worry...
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  #5  
Old 03-21-2009, 06:02 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Oh, and why in the world would the manufacturer sue you? It's not like they're automatically notified after every shooting, then investigate to find out how the gun was used.
You asked two different questions, BTW. Are we talking about deliberately shooting someone (in self defense) or accidentally? Regardless, the gunshot victim(s) is (are) liable to sue you and may try and raise questions about your carry mode. The manufacturer would be then held harmless since they covered their backsides by discouraging condition 1 carry in writing. Again, the gun maker has no reason to go after you.

Last edited by 11,43mm; 03-21-2009 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Clarity.
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  #6  
Old 03-21-2009, 06:55 PM
LeMat LeMat is offline
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Frankly I am tired of the 20 year olds working behind gun counters who either have not the first clue or know nothing more than how to regurgitate things they have read on various gun forums on the internet (generally only spewing that which they were told by other 20 year olds).

Maybe if they'd pick up a book and actually get some experience, I'd listen to 'em.

Whatever happened to the crusty old fart sitting behind the counter smokin' a cigar? He may have had an attitude at first, but once you got to know him, he was actually a pretty cool sort with lots of old hunting yarns.
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  #7  
Old 03-21-2009, 07:25 PM
ferretray ferretray is offline
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Originally Posted by NETim View Post
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work behind the counter at a gunshop.
Or stand in front of it.
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  #8  
Old 03-21-2009, 07:50 PM
Vos Parate Vos Parate is online now
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How would anyone determine that you were carrying cocked and locked?
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2009, 08:13 PM
MSgt Dotson MSgt Dotson is offline
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Originally Posted by HHjr View Post
When I inquired about that mode of carry the young person behind the counter told me “No”, and “If I were to shoot someone while carry any cocked and locked pistol I would be sued by the manufacturer”. ……..
Pure bunk.....

Let me guess...he had a more expensive DA he would sell you instead!
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2009, 08:16 PM
HHjr HHjr is offline
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Great comments everyone ...... I am going to search online for a SIG P220Carry single action to see what verbage they might have on cocked and locked carry.

11,43mm - Right, Colt washes their hands of you and your carry mode with verbage in the manual of arms... I can understand that....that gun shop told me that any ccw shooting involving a cocked and locked pistol would get you in to a suit from the manufacturer regardless if the shot was AD or intentional. I would imagine your training history and everything about your gun skills would be scrutinized but Not from the maker. At the end of my first post the last line was about AD'ing but the talk in the shop was about intentional bad guy ccw shooting.

That place really rubbed us raw ..... but so do the people that step up to my IDPA or IPSC Load and Make Ready call and do Not know the code of operation for their firearm !!

I just have never ever felt so uncomfortable in a gunshop before. I got to let it go I guess.

H

Last edited by HHjr; 03-21-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2009, 08:24 PM
laser1911 laser1911 is offline
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Heck, Glocks and cocked DA revolvers are the kings of ADs.
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  #12  
Old 03-21-2009, 08:57 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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Yeah, it's a sign of the times. C&L is bad, now. The Colonel is probably turning in his grave.
Like others said, the sales guy had other guns that he wanted to move.

A gun shop employee once tried to steer me from a S&W buy (I knew exactly the model I wanted; I didn't ask him for advice!) to a Taurus. Another told a potential customer in front of me that .40 $&W was "much more powerful than .45". Another yet told me that Colt was not selling to "civilians" anymore (all he had on display were Kimbers and Springfields).

It's not gunshop people per se, it's salespeople, period. You gotta know what you want, stand your ground, and walk away if they don't want/can't help you. They're not behind a counter to help or educate you (although the good ones can do just that), but to SELL something. Don't loose sleep over it.

Again, that C&L lawsuit business is pure BS. Yes, especially in case of a civil suit, a lot of issues may be brought up and scrutinized, as you say.
If that can reassure you, a Los Angeles Sheriff deputy told me once that cocked and locked is the safest way to carry a 1911. Many here will confirm.

Another point: holster makers are also sometimes wary of condition one carriers.
Andy Arratoonian, reputed owner of Horseshoe Leather clearly states on his site that he doesn't make rigs for this type of carry to protect himself from lawsuits arising from accidents: http://www.holsters.org/shoulder-holster.htm
And see what Galco also officially states on their site: "All Galco holsters with safety straps and thumbreaks are designed to carry the 1911 with the "hammer down, chamber empty". Galco 1911 fit holsters that are "open top" (no safety strap and no thumbreak)are designed to accommodate 1911's in all safe "conditions" specified by the firearm manufacture."
In reality, their holsters accommodate C&L. They're just doing a little CYA number on their attorneys' advice. Don't think for a second that if your 1911 happens to have a round in the chamber while sitting in a Galco, lawyers are coming for you...(And as Vos Parate said, how exactly would they find out anyway?)

These businesses, just like gun manufacturers, are just (understandably!) protecting themselves from frivolous legal actions, not setting their customers up for lawsuits.
No reason to fear their warnings. Just another sign of the times.
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:21 PM
.45calRotty .45calRotty is offline
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Originally Posted by LeMat View Post
Frankly I am tired of the 20 year olds working behind gun counters who either have not the first clue or know nothing more than how to regurgitate things they have read on various gun forums on the internet (generally only spewing that which they were told by other 20 year olds).

Maybe if they'd pick up a book and actually get some experience, I'd listen to 'em.

Whatever happened to the crusty old fart sitting behind the counter smokin' a cigar? He may have had an attitude at first, but once you got to know him, he was actually a pretty cool sort with lots of old hunting yarns.

Sadly, I've heard plenty of BS coming from Crusty Old Farts too.
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:29 PM
jdm jdm is offline
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Actually, I blame you... for listening to what they were shoveling out at that shop. Seriously, gunshops can be a worse source of good information than an online forum. At least on something like this one we have the ability (and strong desire, in many cases) to loudly call BS when applicable. There's less of a chance to hear someone do that while a guy behind the counter is feeding you bad info.
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:32 PM
Hawkeye Returns Hawkeye Returns is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHjr View Post
This is going to be long but I need to explain what I encountered today. Please bear with me.
A friend and I stopped by a gun shop today after a IDPA match. The shop is called Duncan’s Outdoor Shop in Bay City, MI. The first gun I checked out was the CZ75 SP-O1 Tactical. I thought the gun was Cocked and Locked capable. When I inquired about that mode of carry the young person behind the counter told me “No”, and “If I were to shoot someone while carry any cocked and locked pistol I would be sued by the manufacturer”. …….He told me a 1911 Colt was never designed to be carried cocked and locked. I asked if the same applied to HK USP’s and a SIG P220 Single Action …he and another older employee returned a stern “Yes”. I got agitated and decided just to drop the conversation.
Well, I pulled out a couple manuals when I got home ….. My USP manual states the following “ It’s controls are uniquely American influenced by such famous and successful designs as the Govt model 1911, and like the model 1911, the USP can be safely carried “cocked and locked”. It goes on to instruct the user how to set the controls for cocked and locked carry.
My mid 1980’s Gold Cup manual does indeed state warnings …. From the manual under the General handling Cautions: Always keep and carry your pistol empty, hammer forward except when you intend to shoot. And under shooting cautions: Always keep the safety on when the pistol is loaded and cocked until you are ready to fire
In 1999 I took an Advance Pistol class from John Farnum ….. I do not recall a single warning about carrying my cocked and locked 10mm Bilby Commander. Potential Litigation was discussed about carrying. My friend Eric took a class from Ken Hackathorn and he too stated his love for the 1911.
I respectfully ask for your take on this shop’s comments. Maybe they are trying to sell more Glocks, DA/SA SIG’s and XD’s ?? I feel their comments came straight from their Ass. How many lawsuits can you remember hearing about a manufacturer sueing the owner of a cocked and locked 1911 involved AD ?? Any accidental shooting is going to cost you regardless what action type is involved.

Harold H.
Those folks don't know what they're talking about.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:33 PM
Ben B. Ben B. is offline
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Originally Posted by .45calRotty View Post
Sadly, I've heard plenty of BS coming from Crusty Old Farts too.
I agree. In a gunshop, the crustier they act, the more prone they are to BS, IMHO. Those who act like decent people don't seem to make up as much crap.
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:43 PM
eel eel is offline
 
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I was w/HH today at the gun shop. I will never frequent that place or buy anything from a business that spouts such miss information. What burned us the most was the statement that all manufactures have a warning against cocked and locked in their manuals and will sue you if you carry that way.....complete bull. Why would a manufacture sue a customer?.. why would a manufacture provide an option of putting a safety on a cocked gun if it was unsafe? I read my manual on my S&W PC 1911. There was no mention of such mode being unsafe. They actually noted it as a safe mode. There was a mention of not decocking or carrying with hammer down on a live round.

Michigan has good castle doctrine self defense laws. In a justifiably shooting, one can not be prosecuted or sued. We also have laws against suing gun manufactures in shootings. Too bad gun stores do not know thier own state laws.
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  #18  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:45 PM
Greyson Greyson is offline
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Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I've heard more pure BS in gunshops than any other establishment, including bars.
This statement is so true it needs to be quoted. I have heard so much dumb, stupid, ignorant BS from behind a gun counter.

I suppose it is human nature: if you don't have the correct answer, just make one up. At least you look like you know something.

Seek knowledge for yourself, and you will be counted among the enlightened of this Earth.

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Old 03-21-2009, 09:46 PM
Agent6-3/8 Agent6-3/8 is offline
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Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I've heard more pure BS in gunshops than any other establishment, including bars.
+1

Come to think of it. I believe I've only met two gunshop employees who weren't full of it or otherwise mentally impared.
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  #20  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:59 PM
pendennis pendennis is offline
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Remind me to avoid Duncan's the next time I'm around Bay City. What a crock!

This is the same type of mentality that I've seen at the "big box" stores like Cabela's. On another forum, a guy was told by a clerk not to shoot +P .38 Special in a S&W Model 10-7.

Dr Browning designed the 1911 and the Hi Power to be carried in Condition One. Taurus PT's, HK USP, and CZ, are among those safe to carry in Condition One.

I bet those same guys knew a guy who knew a guy who had a .22-250 which would shoot absolutely flat out to 600 yards, and had taken a 7x7 bull elk at that range.
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  #21  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:08 PM
RSO1911 RSO1911 is offline
 
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Well, when I have customers come in, since I don't work on commission I don't have to blow smoke up their a**.

I've been shooting since I was six, and have shot a very broad selection of firearms. I've also been a avid history buff of firearms, and try to share anecdotes and facts with people. Who knows? maybe months from now I'll be burnt out with it and tell people whatever it is what they want to hear (hope not!) Till then, I make sure people are buying decent guns, and that they know how they operate before they leave the store!

Actually the reason I got a job in the industry is to try to subvert the retardedness of the guys the OP talked to. Since I've started there's many people that know 1911's are carried cocked and locked, and always keep Glocks in holsters. That yes the XDM's are accurate, but the EAA witness Match guns are phenomenal and less expensive. I just want to do my part to offset those jerkwads at stores we all run into. Thats why I dress nice (no ricky recon tactical stuff) I don't open carry in the store, and actually smile and get to know people instead of trying to be some hardass. I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes going over different guns with people the +/-'s of each type to help them find what they need and them not buy anything than sell a gun under false pretense.
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  #22  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:13 PM
.45calRotty .45calRotty is offline
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HHjr - I think once this thread gets a few pages long you should print it out and send itto the owner of the Gunshop. There a good chance he has no idea how his employees are affecting his business with this nonscence.
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:29 PM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Very wise friend once advised me, "What's the point in telling an idiot that he's an idiot?" What's the point of starting a thread about an idiot? It's not like most of us don't know that the guy behind the counter at the gun store would be on our side of the counter, were he as smart as we!
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:29 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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I can hear him already: aw, internet forums are full of crap! Don't listen to them...
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:49 PM
kdogg kdogg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHjr View Post
gun shop told me that any ccw shooting involving a cocked and locked pistol would get you in to a suit from the manufacturer regardless if the shot was AD or intentional.
H
Um, since when do gun manufacturers sue there customers over shootings involving there products?
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