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  #1  
Old 03-19-2009, 10:12 PM
jedi391 jedi391 is offline
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Interesting 1911 transition training observation

My agency recently transitioned to 1911's and during the training there were several makes and models of 1911's going through the course including Wilson, Brown, S&W, Springfield, Sig, Taurus, Kimber and Colt. During this period I spoke with a rangemaster who observed that out of all those manufacturers only two brands were perfect across the board with each example.

Drumroll........S&W and Taurus. The Taurus, I must confess, surprised me. Of the problems observed in extraction An nternal extractor equiped model was the worst and the only brands that had no extraction issues observed were the Wilson's, Smith's, Sigs, and Taurus. I guess those external extractors must not be too bad afterall.

For the most part most of the examples (including Kimber) ran without a hitch. Made me wonder how much of the Internet babble about "this model is a non-starter for serious defense work for (insert reason here) is really to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm starting to think in order to be an expert I guess you have to come up with something to critique.

I guess my point is, if you are happy with what you are shooting and it is serving you well keep shooting it and maintaining it and ignore the Internet naysayers.

To qualify, I own neither Smith nor Taurus buy I sold a Smith in the past and I regret it and will be picking up another in the future. I'm also still more then in love with my Wilson which I will never part with.

Just had to share.

Last edited by jedi391; 03-19-2009 at 10:17 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:21 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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If you are not willing to make your own decisions in life.

Then there are plenty of people out there ready, willing, and able to make them for you. Politicians etc.

No need to worry the government will take care of us. Just ask any indigenous North American.

" The American democracy will survive until the government realizes that it can bribe the population with it's own money" Alexis De Tocqueville.
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  #3  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:37 PM
jedi391 jedi391 is offline
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Government taking care of us? I'm missing something, I was writing about not worrying about problems with various guns that I believe are overhyped, For example the external extractor. What does that have to do with the government?
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  #4  
Old 03-19-2009, 11:41 PM
jaydoc1 jaydoc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
Then there are plenty of people out there ready, willing, and able to make them for you. Politicians etc.

No need to worry the government will take care of us. Just ask any indigenous North American.

" The American democracy will survive until the government realizes that it can bribe the population with it's own money" Alexis De Tocqueville.
Ummm...huh?
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2009, 12:41 AM
chifus chifus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi391 View Post
The Taurus, I must confess, surprised me.
I know, taurus surprises a lot of people. I dont know why the taurus has such a bad reputation, they are very good.

Its like the nork, once people read "made in china" they assume its garbage.

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  #6  
Old 03-20-2009, 08:43 AM
RapidFire101 RapidFire101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chifus View Post
I know, taurus surprises a lot of people. I dont know why the taurus has such a bad reputation, they are very good.



Amen.
I was surprised with Taurus, so surprised I bought one and love it.
So surprised that I will be buying a second one


I've learned not to follow reputation. Taurus always had a bad reputation when guys at the range would "gossip". But, they did their 1911 right.
And there are companies with very good reputations, that after shooting them extensively and/or owning them, I will never buy their product again
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2009, 09:35 AM
1911_Pilot 1911_Pilot is offline
 
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Interesting observations. The Taurus really is quite good; my friend loves his. The only thing that stopped me from buying one was the fact that many standard 1911 parts will not fit the pistol.
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2009, 09:49 AM
lunyou lunyou is offline
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I think it because there are horror stories out there about Taurus' customer service. When they do break, and everything breaks occasionally, according to alot of stories(not my experience as I own Springers), they take a while to fix the problem.

I also think people see Taurus as a knock off company. They seem to make a clone of almost all the popular models out there including the Berretta 92 and the 1911. Of course all but a few companies make a 1911 clone variant. And they always seem to be priced slightly less than their counterparts.

The Taurus revolvers I have handled all seem a bit less "refined" especially in the action than the S&W revolvers and definatly the very few Colts I have handled. But that said, I don't think you would mind getting it a bit beat up in your pocket or ankle holster, as much as you would a $1500 Colt snubbie.

lunyou
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2009, 11:20 AM
RapidFire101 RapidFire101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunyou View Post
I think it because there are horror stories out there about Taurus' customer service. When they do break, and everything breaks occasionally, according to alot of stories(not my experience as I own Springers), they take a while to fix the problem.

I also think people see Taurus as a knock off company. They seem to make a clone of almost all the popular models out there including the Berretta 92 and the 1911. Of course all but a few companies make a 1911 clone variant. And they always seem to be priced slightly less than their counterparts.

The Taurus revolvers I have handled all seem a bit less "refined" especially in the action than the S&W revolvers and definatly the very few Colts I have handled. But that said, I don't think you would mind getting it a bit beat up in your pocket or ankle holster, as much as you would a $1500 Colt snubbie.

lunyou
And I can tell you, they are exactly that: "stories".
yes, when i first bought my taurus i had a small problem with it, they sent me a replacement part within 5 days. my problem still was not fixed, i sent them the gun, one week later - a brand new gun arrived for me. their customer service is excellent, and like all companies i am sure select few people have had bad experiences with them
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  #10  
Old 03-20-2009, 01:58 PM
1911_Pilot 1911_Pilot is offline
 
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Let's not turn this into a Taurus thread. I have not been here long, but I can still feel it coming. The original poster made an interesting observation and made all of us more aware by sharing it.
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:21 PM
gspdave45 gspdave45 is offline
 
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Well, I get crap all the time for my Auto-Ord, but the weapon runs without fail. Its about 17 years old now and I love it, but to hear the whining about it you'd think I had divided by zero by owning the thing.
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:43 PM
cjw3cma cjw3cma is offline
 
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I'd be interested in knowing of all the L.E. departments that issue 1911's to their force, what are the top names / models of guns issued. Each department armorer will have their own stories of the guns their department uses / used, but the every workday carry officer's opinion on their weapons. Not that it would change my mind on which manufacturer's I prefer (and can afford !) but user knowledge always takes first place over magazine reviews.

Taurus guns sell / S&W's sell. Internal vs. external ejectors - both sell. If the manufacturer spends their production $$$ making a product that meets and/or exceeds the specification then they have made a viable performing weapon (and some will have problems when coming off mass production production runs, but the majority do not).

My 1911 is a clone (forged frame and slide with internals match fitted and a kick-a** barrel bushing fit) - works every time with whatever I feed it. Not the prettiest gal on the block but she shoots POA and has been my daily carry for close to a year (when I can carry). Would like someday when $$$ is again available for me to spend on me a CBOB as that is one mighty fine looking pistola.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:08 PM
Electraclyde Electraclyde is offline
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I have a PT1911 and a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail as well as a Springfield EMP 9mm. They ALL function flawlessly when kept clean and well oiled. I had (traded it in on the CBOB) a Springfield Micro Compact light weight. It was very fussy about magazine brand and ammo type, but it was the most accurate gun in my group. (3" barrel???) 1911's are like motorcycles, they are all good, I just like some better than others.
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  #14  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Randall M Randall M is offline
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I have the base model S&W 1911 5" fixed Novak carry sights Stainless Steel. In 1200 rounds, No FTEs period, a few FTF in the first few hundred
rounds. After a good cleaning and lube it's good for about 400 rds before it's
due for another cleaning/lube.

Local Sheriff's Dept. Whitman COunty SE Wash. STate transitioned to Kimber 1911s from Glocks a couple of years ago. THe deputy i talked to said
he liked it better but had to clean it more often than a Glock. FWIW.

I've replaced the stock rubber grips with Hogue rosewoods and had a Les
Baer (vertical) serrated MSH fitted, a couple of guys who handled it at the range and hadn't noticed the discreet S&W trademark and 'SW1911' in small
font have asked if it's an upper end model Brown or Baer. I tell them what is and they are surprized. I would think the external extractor would be a giveaway. It came from the factory without any sharp edges - at the bottom of the slide or slide serrations, so no need for the package some
smiths offer for doing this. I forget what other brands I considered but the
S&W rep. for customer service sold me. Only S&W I sent to Springfield
is my 625 - extraction problem cured, and I paid for the Mast. Revo Action
Job as long as it was there. WOrth the money, it's a smoothie DA,

Randall
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  #15  
Old 03-20-2009, 06:35 PM
11,43mm 11,43mm is offline
 
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The LAPD issues Kimber TLEs to SWAT and SIS to, well, SIS.
Interestingly, the TLEs replaced the 1911s that SWAT had been using since the 80's. Those 1911s (mostly Colt, I hear) all came for seizures and had been rehabilitated by the unit's armorers. That tells you how bad LAPD SWAT must have been wanting 1911s when they were willing to use mix-and-match weapons.

As for the internet snobism, it's real and I've been affected myself (I used to think that Galco was top drawer - now, I'm almost ashamed to own one...). But aside from some disinformation, online forums are one of the best info sources if you know how to use them.
A lot of people who state being extremely happy with their sub-standard equipment are what the firearms industry calls "hobbyists". If the majority of us shot more than a box a year, they wouldn't get away with sloppy fit and cheap parts. How many times do you see posts about a "great buy: NIB, apparently not even shot once"? It's for these people that MIM was invented, not for the heavy users.

So I still believe a lot of what I read online (with a grain of salt). And I'm also very interested in LEA and military feedback on weapons.
This post from jedi391 is great food for thought in that respect. I'd be even more interested if the armorers were talking about weapons their agencies used for over a year. Hard to swallow that anyone would prefer a Taurus over a Brown (talking function and longevity, here, not cosmetics).

Last edited by 11,43mm; 03-20-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-20-2009, 08:34 PM
FNG FNG is offline
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Re: the OP's post.

The opinion was from a rangemaster whose qualifications we do not know. It was his opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock on someone who picks a Taurus over a Brown, Wilson, Colt, Springfield etc.
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  #17  
Old 03-20-2009, 08:54 PM
Slish Slish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNG View Post
Re: the OP's post.

The opinion was from a rangemaster whose qualifications we do not know. It was his opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock on someone who picks a Taurus over a Brown, Wilson, Colt, Springfield etc.
Ummm... unless my reading comprehension is significantly downgraded tonight, what I'm seeing is a rangemaster who made a statement (via the OP) stating how many failures he'd seen with only two brands having none... Taurus and S&W. That's what we call in the Quality field as attribute data: "Good" and "Bad". Think of it as "IS" and "IS NOT" or "PASS" and "FAIL". I didn't see anything that would lead me to belive that there was any opinion involved, only a fact.

But I wasn't there either so I can only assume this based on what I think I'm reading.

ETA: I have my own preferences in brands, and neither Smith nor Taurus are in my top echelon picks. But that's not what I think the OP is saying here.
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:22 PM
Randall M Randall M is offline
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I wouldn't question the rangemaster, but the O.P. didn't post about
* what the org. was transistioning from did he?
* as well as how many in general of each type of 1911.

Sounds to me like the LEO org. with such an assortment of
brands means to me the officers chose their own. and who knows
who already had one, or just went out shopping listening to
whoever was behind the counter?

It also might be there were a lot of brand new guns that needed
some shooting. 1911s need some run-in - at least some brands, I'm
not offering any opinion on a PT1911, I've never seen one or yet handled
one, exaimined them. I just know thier revolvers aren't up to S&W
standards IMHO.

Randall
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  #19  
Old 03-20-2009, 09:26 PM
1911_Pilot 1911_Pilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNG View Post
Re: the OP's post.

The opinion was from a rangemaster whose qualifications we do not know. It was his opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock on someone who picks a Taurus over a Brown, Wilson, Colt, Springfield etc.
The range master did not "pick" the Taurus. He simply made an observation regarding functionality.
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:56 PM
Randall M Randall M is offline
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Also the O.P. didn't say what the rngemaster had to say about
accuracy of models, eh? hmm, O.P. has only posted 19 posts,
hey it's a nice place for a new 1911 user, hope he expands on the
size of his 'sample," and how the guns were acqquired.

Randall
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  #21  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:20 PM
jedi391 jedi391 is offline
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To clarify, all the 1911's are optional and were privately purchased, the department issues M&P's. We are going on year two. The majority of the 1911's were Kimbers with the others mixed in. Most guns were are newer and probably around the 1000 round mark as of now (SWAT guns are again private purchase and mostly Kimber and are on several years and I have only heard of one with notable issues).

If you go back and read the only guns I said I would have a preference for are my Wilson, and if I were to go production level Smith as I had owned one in the past and liked it alot. Those are the only opinions I voiced. Everything else was what I observed in the training I was present for and what the instructor saw in all the other trainings. It's not a I like Taurus's better then Brown, if offered the two I would take the Brown.

The study samples certainly aren't scientific in size but they are what they are. Again the point is that some of the guns that don't get much respect had no issues and some vaunted makes did. The opinion I did form is that most of the snobbish "I wouldn't own ____ because of ____" is rarely based on empirical fact and more internet superstition. Look how much Kimber gets beat up (I don't own one and don't plan on it) yet I have talked to our SWAT guys who have shot tens of thousands of rounds through them without complaint. I have also talked with LAPD guys who love them (they're not exactly shoot one box year kind of guys).

My intent wasn't to elevate one gun over another and I have no personal mission to change anyones mind about the Taurus, although my mind has been changed and I have gained respect for them.

My point is enjoy what you have because it's prob more then capable of carryi g out whatever mission you have. I simply don't buy that one must spend 2k for a defensive 1911 (even though that's what I did).

Again this post was simply about some observations gleaned over the course of several trainings, those were simple observations not opinions, then I threw in my editorial on those observations. Also go easy on my grammar, I'm writing this on my iPhone.....small keyboard for more then a few sentences.
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2009, 11:17 PM
Randall M Randall M is offline
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well, no offense meant, but there's some questions unanswered

What platforms are the officers transistioning from?

How many in the org are going to a 1911 ?

Of those with the sw1911 and PT1911 versus all others
how many have prior experience with a 1911?

further analysis by age group and income might also shed light
on this group transistion .

And what is the experience in years of the Range Master?

Randall
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2009, 01:47 AM
jedi391 jedi391 is offline
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Issue weapon is the M&P. Opptional weapons are Glock, Sig, H&K, Beretta. About 30 guys so far have transitioned, all are shooters with previous exposure to 1911. People who transitioned are enthusiasts, the vast majority of the agency did not transition as they are not enthusiasts. The 1911 really isn't so hard to shoot compared to other platforms that an experienced shooter is suddenly going to cause malfunctions.

Range master has about 30 years experience and was actually around when the agency still carried Colt 1911's in the 70's and early 80's. Infact he still has his old one.

Not sure what age and income have to do with it.

My turn to say no offense meant but your kind of what I was talking about. This was as stated a simple observation not a scientific study. Seems like people who probably argue and debate alot. Not that debate is always a bad thing but not everything has to be complicated. It's like some people want something to nitpick. I guess I could of taken DNA to look for any prediposed genetic issues aswell aswell as BMI and cardio evals and grip strength readings but I was just trying to expound and make an observation. Again not intending offense just making a point. Take it for what it's worth.

Last edited by jedi391; 03-21-2009 at 08:26 AM.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2009, 01:56 AM
jedi391 jedi391 is offline
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Incidentally how does the number of Internet posts I have made apply to my experience with the 1911? I always thought it had more to do with how many rounds down range I had. Guess I should spend less time at the range and more on the keyboard. In the world I work in you here the term "street cred" if I post 100 more times will I pick up some "web cred"? I fear I will never achieve Internet ninja status now.....just kidding of course.

Last edited by jedi391; 03-21-2009 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Trying to be funny
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2009, 02:41 AM
Madcap72 Madcap72 is offline
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OLD Taurus's are junk. The crappy ones sitting next to llama's in the 200$ section.
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