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  #51  
Old 02-11-2007, 08:39 AM
pinocchio pinocchio is offline
 
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Gotta defend the IDPA as a member, i love it. Yes it is a game, yes some rules make no sense to me but it it a helluva lot better than just standing still and shooting at a target, throw movement into it and everything gets hairy. Training is a bad often overused word, fire and movement practice is maybe more appropriate, the local matches won't turn you into a tacticool (insert greek alphabet letter ) shooter. They will give you a bit of a leg up over the guy who always stood still and shot at targets standing still also. I mentioned this before on the site, a few of us competative shooters went up against the local PD in simuntion and when rules of engagement came to a point where the bad guy (us) could fire guess who usually came out on top. Guess what the police added to their qualifier, IDPA and IPSC style practice helps.

Last edited by pinocchio; 02-11-2007 at 04:15 PM.
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  #52  
Old 02-11-2007, 09:41 AM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WESHOOT2
The entire point of my thread was that in real life, given time, tactics are predetermined.
Just like IDPA.
Now I'm puzzled. IRL, you have an infinite number of options, some good, some bad, and some weird. What works today may not work tomorrow. What is correct in one scenario may not be correct in a similar scenario. How do you figure tactics are predetermined?
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  #53  
Old 02-11-2007, 10:29 AM
in_burrito in_burrito is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John K
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_burrito
To you, a gun is a toy, and that is fine; for you. Based on your location it's understandable.
What does where I live have to do with the relevance of using a firearm?
It has to do with the fact that you're unlikely to carry a gun on a daily basis, and that the laws in your state make it difficult to even own a firearm. It also has to do with the fact that if you were born and raised there, your liklihood of having a completely different mindset towards self defense than someone from another state.
Quote:
Does a bird hunter use a shotgun as a toy? Does a hiker use a compass as a toy? The a ham radio operator use a radio as a toy?
Yes, they do. Just like a golfer uses a club as a toy, a bicyclist uses a bike as a toy, and a bowler uses a ball as a toy. From your posts it would appear that IDPA is your golf/bowling. There's nothing wrong with that, but it makes me wonder why you're participating in a conversation about the practical application of "skills" learned in IDPA.
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  #54  
Old 02-11-2007, 05:19 PM
pinocchio pinocchio is offline
 
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If ya' don't like the guys shooting in your area, take your ball and go home. Guy's around here don't tell war stories so much as just normal chit chat and gossip. I don't agree with the idea that all 1911 .45's are CUSTOM DEFENSE PISTOLS even when they are as plain vanilla as a .45 can get, but thats my problem. Bill Wilson and company wrote their rules for a reason and who am I to complain, if ya' don't like it don't shoot it. Or better yet do like the guys who started IDPA who had issues with IPSC and start your very own competative format with rules and scores and t shirts and people who don't agree with your rules, then they can start their own and the variety of shooting sport will increase.

And yes, the tan photography vest absolutely screams I HAVE A GUN, LOOK AT ME GUN GUN GUN GUN GUN.
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  #55  
Old 02-11-2007, 05:45 PM
Big crush Big crush is offline
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Quote:
The issue of IDPA/IPSC's affect on good actual traininig is something I'm very interested in and enjoy discussing. With that said, there's not much point in discussing it with someone who only shoots for recreation.
Does Leatham, Jarret, and Barnhart count too? They are all "recreational" shooters.

hint: "it's about the mechanics"
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2007, 03:59 PM
ScottSt ScottSt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_burrito
Excellent point!

I know that in my own case, I have taken a completely different approach to IDPA and other games since getting some real training from good instructors (Randy Cain, Bill Jeans, and Pat Rogers). I have also discovered that I'm just not "switched on" enough to be able to game on one day and train on another.

Getting training is a real eye-opener, and it has been for every single person I've met who has done so. I would strongly encourage anyone who thinks that they may EVER use a firearm to defend themselves to seek quality training with that firearm.

John K, you're not that far from Gunsite, and besides the excellent instruction you'd receive there, you'd also have a hell of a good time.
This is more than a little silly, and just plain condescending.

I've been to courses at Sigarms Academy and Gunsite (twice). I live in a state where concealed carry is commonplace. I carry fairly regularly. Know what I shoot in IDPA?

5" 1911 w/fiber optic sights
Kydex OWB holster
Kydex OWB double mag pouch
Photo vest with big ol' front pouch pockets (with stiffeners and extra mags for weight)
185gr FMC 100fps over PF

Why? Because no matter how you want to mall-ninja it up, IDPA is a sport, just like golf, tennis, or NASCAR. How can I tell? Let's see, it has...

...a rule book
...divisions and classes
...equipment requirements
...scores/rankings
...times
...penalties
...referees/officials

You get the idea. Is IDPA more "realistic" than IPSC? Sure, just the same way NASCAR is more "realistic" than Formula 1. But neither of them try to claim to simulate actual highway driving.

If you want to shoot IDPA with your Glock 26 in an IWB and one extra mag with an oversized T-shirt, good for you. You're setting your expectations and deciding for yourself what your goals are for the match. If I want to use the legal equipment/rig that I think will give me the best chance of being competitive, then I'm setting my expectations and deciding what my goals are for the match. I'm not going to walk around a crap on your for your equipment/goals. I don't expect you to do so, either.

Quote:
I have also discovered that I'm just not "switched on" enough to be able to game on one day and train on another.
This actually made me laugh out loud.
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:04 PM
in_burrito in_burrito is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSt
If you want to shoot IDPA with your Glock 26 in an IWB and one extra mag with an oversized T-shirt, good for you. You're setting your expectations and deciding for yourself what your goals are for the match. If I want to use the legal equipment/rig that I think will give me the best chance of being competitive, then I'm setting my expectations and deciding what my goals are for the match. I'm not going to walk around a crap on your for your equipment/goals. I don't expect you to do so, either.
Which is entirely the point. But each participant should be clear in their own mind what their goals are for IDPA and be careful not to let their equipment choices be completely contrary to those goals.

FWIW, I don't shoot a Glock 26, I shoot a 5" 1911. In fact, it's the one that's on my belt right now and virtually every single day.
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:06 PM
in_burrito in_burrito is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSt
Why? Because no matter how you want to mall-ninja it up, IDPA is a sport, just like golf, tennis, or NASCAR. How can I tell? Let's see, it has...
IDPA, or frankly any shooting "sport" outside of the biathalon is hardly a "sport". Of course, given your three examples only one of them would qualify as a sport either.
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  #59  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:22 PM
Big crush Big crush is offline
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Quote:
IDPA, or frankly any shooting "sport" outside of the biathalon is hardly a "sport"
If all one ever shoots is locals I can see how one may come to this conclusion. Shoot a few nationals (USPSA or IDPA) of some of the larger full day format major matches and come back to give us your thoughts then.
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  #60  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:24 PM
in_burrito in_burrito is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big crush
If all one ever shoots is locals I can see how one may come to this conclusion. Shoot a few nationals (USPSA or IDPA) of some of the larger full day format major matches and come back to give us your thoughts then.
I've shot and worked several state matches, but no matter what no shooting "sport" is going to compare to soccer, basketball, tennis, or other actually physically demanding sports. As I said, if you define "sport" as golf, bowling, or NASCAR, then perhaps IDPA is a sport as well.
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  #61  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:25 PM
PursuitFRC PursuitFRC is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSt
You get the idea. Is IDPA more "realistic" than IPSC? Sure, just the same way NASCAR is more "realistic" than Formula 1. But neither of them try to claim to simulate actual highway driving.
NASCARs and their namesakes have less in common than a Formula 1 does with a street Ferrari. My example would be Pride or UFC fighting is more realistic than Professional Boxing.
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  #62  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:16 PM
ScottSt ScottSt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_burrito
IDPA, or frankly any shooting "sport" outside of the biathalon is hardly a "sport". Of course, given your three examples only one of them would qualify as a sport either.
sport (spôrt, sprt)
n.
1. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively; A particular form of this activity.
2. An active pastime; recreation.

Hmmm. Seems to fit. Maybe I should have been looking in The Funk and Mall-Ninja?
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  #63  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:16 PM
ScottSt ScottSt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PursuitFRC
NASCARs and their namesakes have less in common than a Formula 1 does with a street Ferrari. My example would be Pride or UFC fighting is more realistic than Professional Boxing.
OK.
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2007, 09:38 PM
nsureit nsureit is offline
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Originally Posted by Greatgoogamooga
I'm a musician, I can only count to 4. 6 on a good day. Goog
Goog, didn't the late, great Frank Zappa coin the phrase..."Great-Googali-Moogali!"?
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  #65  
Old 02-24-2007, 10:59 PM
pinocchio pinocchio is offline
 
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I get to play games with some of the local LE guys and you know what there iare, rules of engagement, roleplaying rules, the point being rules on a piece of paper for how you will behave as a part of training. Any simulation is going to have rules, IDPA just has a book of em. Is IDPA the same as LE training... nope, but If you are moving and shooting it can't hurt to practice.

It is a game like golf or basketball, but the difference is the particular skill set you are hoping to develop is a useful way for CCW holders and armed citzens to practice. Most folks cant go to thunder ranch every weekend or hang out with SPECWAR so you use what ya got. If that means Billy Joe from the Bass Pro shop goes out to the range and sets up some walls and cardboard targets behind an old rusted out car door and paints some hands on em and digs out a few ratty old t shirts so his buddies can try to hit center mass on those targets more accurately and quickly than their fellows than more power to em. If ya got money to spare and vacation time go to FrontSight or TR or even try a course at blackwater, whatever.

It is just a game, but it is still a game where you get to learn a little about how to deal in lead. some cops around here qualify by putting 100 rounds twice a year into a silhoette target at 25, 15, and 7 yards while standing still. anything in the black is a hit, just hit it 85 out of 100 times and you are a certified firearms professional. Does this make the guy who goes to IDPA every month better than? I don't think so as it's not his butt in a patrol car every day, but if you are gonna apply standards which is more difficult. The inherant flaw in using a shooting game as a training technique is it is a game and if you are thinking about it as a training tool you better stop worrying about beating your buddy at time and practice cutting the pie. It also does not address what to do before the shooting starts, how to diffuse the situation and about a billion other permutations, but for what it does it is better then standing in the same spot hitting the same boring target every few months. If you are looking at IDPA to teach you self defense you are dillusional, but as a form of target practice that ups the stress it does the job.

Edit: not trying to sound like a mall ninja but shooting is shooting and any way to up the stress while doing so can't be bad.

Last edited by pinocchio; 02-24-2007 at 11:03 PM.
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  #66  
Old 02-24-2007, 11:00 PM
EX CATM EX CATM is offline
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Well I've read the majority of this thread and see that it has gone down hill quickly.
I am one of thoose guys that shows up at IDPA matches in a 5.11 vest carrying a G34 or 5" 1911 in a OWB holster. I also carry that way all the time. I have always carried a full sized pistol. I don't care for compacts they don't fit my hand well and are more difficult to controll. Most shooting instructors will tell you to carry the bigest gun you can and I do. I have yet to meet a non shooter that associates a photogrophers vest with guns. I always find it funny when people say they scream gun. Tell me if it is so well known by the public at large why have I never seen a vest used as a concealment garmnet in the movies or on TV? Why has the liberal media not warned everyone about all the vest wearing gunmen running around? A vest may say gun to another shooter or LEO but I am not worried about hidding the fact I am packing from thoose kind of people. The OWB holster is the most common you will see at matches and the most common bought by CCW holders thats why you do not see a lot of IWB holsters on the shelves in gun stores or in the catalogs of the big name holster makers.

As far as IDPA being training or a way to test your tactics, it is not. It is a very fun game. If you were testing tactics you would shoot the immediate threats that you can see and then either run away or stay where you are and wait for the police or backup. There are very few real senarios that would require you to leave a palce of safety and advance into a place of danger unless you are a law enforcement officer or in the millitary. If you think in real life you are going to engage 9 bad guys by yourself and live you may want to lay off the movies. If you want to train and test tactics go do some simunitions training or try some shoot no shoot senarios on a FATS machine.

I am in complete agreement with the person that started this thread. IDPA is a great way to test your shooting skills or mechanics and to determine if you are too slow or inaccurate based on your scores against your peers. It can also help to determine if you need more practice shooting moving targets, shooting on the move or in akward positions.

Were I ever to treat an IDPA satge as I would a real life senario. Where I had multiple bads guys in multiple locations and I had to take them out (say clearing my home after a home invasion). It would take me ten minutes not 27 seconds to shoot the stage because I am gonna be very cautious and do anythng I can not to get shot. Oh I will probably not relaod in an aproved manner.

Last edited by EX CATM; 02-25-2007 at 04:52 PM.
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  #67  
Old 02-25-2007, 08:12 AM
pinocchio pinocchio is offline
 
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Amen brother, praise god and pass the ammo.
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  #68  
Old 02-25-2007, 08:52 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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I figure it this way.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Burke
Now I'm puzzled. IRL, you have an infinite number of options, some good, some bad, and some weird. What works today may not work tomorrow. What is correct in one scenario may not be correct in a similar scenario. How do you figure tactics are predetermined?

On site some kind of 'commander' presents the situation and determines tactics to solve it; cowboys not welcome.

(Please note: I have not suggested in any way that either game is tactical training.)



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  #69  
Old 02-25-2007, 06:10 PM
ScottSt ScottSt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinocchio
It is just a game, but it is still a game where you get to learn a little about how to deal in lead.
Did you really just say "deal in lead?"
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  #70  
Old 02-25-2007, 08:25 PM
hueycrew hueycrew is offline
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I like IDPA and USPSA

Its fun. More fun that bullseye or target shooting for me. I don't do well at bullseye. Though I have fun doing it. Target Shooting is cool too.

I'm just happy that I am able to shoot either sport in a free country.

I'm also happy that I am better able to handle a pistol from a holster. It was pretty scary at first. I had help from other shooters in both sports

I've learned quite a bit about shooting. Watching my front sight, proper holding, how to clear a jam from my reloads , and how much I have to learn.

I think in the end participating in IDPA and USPSA has helped me be more confident in my abilities while also reminding me how much I have to learn as a shooter and how important it is to know how to safely handle a pistol.

It also got me into reloading.

WESHOOT2. I've loaded some 40SW with 4.6 G of W231 and topped it with a 180 g round nose flat point Raniner bullet. I'm having problems finding Power Pistol in my area. I got this load off of the Winchester site. I'd appreciate your feedback on this load.
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  #71  
Old 02-26-2007, 11:14 AM
quantico quantico is offline
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I think the recent holster restrictions and some of the rules make IDPA a game instead of a more useful training exercise. I used to run glocks in IDPA and I would never carry one with the stock plastic guide rod... I would only trust a stainless captured guide rod / spring unit. That would not be legal in IDPA and yet would not be what I would actually carry.

The holster restrictions are also not good. Would you rather people carried guns tucked in their belt or loose in a pocket as some folks actually do on the street ????

In an IDPA limited vickers stage I am in trouble if I shoot a couple extra rounds... in the real world you shoot until the threat is ended...

My take on IDPA is that the rules are not helping the sport at this point. I still go and shoot from time to time, but I prefer IPSC because the shooters seem much better and the goal of each course of fire makes more sense.
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  #72  
Old 02-26-2007, 11:54 AM
Big crush Big crush is offline
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Note to self:

I often forget that most who own firearms, and sometimes carry handguns for various reasons, are NOT afforded the opportunity to practice various gun handling drills/skills in live fire for lack of a range(s) to do so other than under match conditions.

From this standpoint IDPA, USPSA, ICORE, GSSF and a few other venues afford the opportuinty to test various skill sets with a varied amount of self induced stress and can be valuable with regard to self improvement.

While match only practice with regard personal skill set improvement is a less than ideal path toward self improvement it is better than none at all.
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  #73  
Old 02-26-2007, 12:07 PM
PursuitFRC PursuitFRC is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quantico
I used to run glocks in IDPA and I would never carry one with the stock plastic guide rod... I would only trust a stainless captured guide rod / spring unit. That would not be legal in IDPA and yet would not be what I would actually carry.
No, that would just put you in Enhanced Service Pistol.
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  #74  
Old 02-26-2007, 06:44 PM
pinocchio pinocchio is offline
 
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I gotta stop re reading all the DARK TOWER Stephen King Novel's, the vernacular is starting to creep in, but this thread is really starting to jump the shark anyways.

"The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed."
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  #75  
Old 02-27-2007, 01:48 AM
quantico quantico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PursuitFRC
No, that would just put you in Enhanced Service Pistol.
I don't think that would be a fair trade off... putting a gun into a semi-custom category because you don't want to run with a guide rod that can break... The first glock 17's came from glock with metal guide rods.. so those can run SSP ???
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